Women's Role

[Drake]

aron>"LSM says, Women can't teach. Right?"

With authority..... RCV on 1 Tim 2:12

But I do not permit a ^awoman to ¹teach or to assert authority over a man, but to be in ²quietness.

12¹ To teach here means to teach with authority, to define and decide the meaning of doctrines concerning divine truth. For a woman to teach in this way or to exercise authority over a man is to leave her position. In God's creation man was ordained to be the head, and woman to be in subjection to man (1 Cor. 11:3). In the church this ordination should be kept.



aron, do you see the difference between a sister who teaches other sisters, or children, or ministers to others, or prophesying in the meetings.... all those vs the definition above? Is that distinction not clear whether you agree with it or not?

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

aron>"LSM says, Women can't teach. Right?"

With authority..... RCV on 1 Tim 2:12

But I do not permit a ^awoman to ¹teach or to assert authority over a man, but to be in ²quietness.

12¹ To teach here means to teach with authority, to define and decide the meaning of doctrines concerning divine truth. For a woman to teach in this way or to exercise authority over a man is to leave her position. In God's creation man was ordained to be the head, and woman to be in subjection to man (1 Cor. 11:3). In the church this ordination should be kept.



aron, do you see the difference between a sister who teaches other sisters, or children, or ministers to others, or prophesying in the meetings.... all those vs the definition above? Is that distinction not clear whether you agree with it or not?

Drake

Is there a basis in the Greek to say that the word teach in this chapter is somehow different from the other chapters?

Also, apart from the Apostles who gets to "define doctrine"? Wasn't the NT doctrine defined in the New Testament?

Also what does "to be in quietness" mean? How is it distinct from "following dumb idols"?

[Drake]

ZNP"Is there a basis in the Greek to say that the word teach in this chapter is somehow different from the other chapters?"

I don't know about the Greek part... but in general it appears Paul's concern here and in 1 Cor 11, 14.. and the special case in Rev 2, is about authority in God's government.

ZNP" Also, apart from the Apostles who gets to "define doctrine"? Wasn't the NT doctrine defined in the New Testament?"

True. But when these letters were written the saints did not have the NT. And even though we have had the NT for sometime that did not prevent heresies from Mary Baker Eddy and Ellen White from cropping up and others.

ZNP "Also what does "to be in quietness" mean? How is it distinct from "following dumb idols"?"

Paul knew the difference and all may prophesy so in quietness must be related to his primary concern... in the first point above.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP"Is there a basis in the Greek to say that the word teach in this chapter is somehow different from the other chapters?"

I don't know about the Greek part... but in general it appears Paul's concern here and in 1 Cor 11, 14.. and the special case in Rev 2, is about authority in God's government.

ZNP" Also, apart from the Apostles who gets to "define doctrine"? Wasn't the NT doctrine defined in the New Testament?"

True. But when these letters were written the saints did not have the NT. And even though we have had the NT for sometime that did not prevent heresies from Mary Baker Eddy and Ellen White from cropping up and others.

ZNP "Also what does "to be in quietness" mean? How is it distinct from "following dumb idols"?"

Paul knew the difference and all may prophesy so in quietness must be related to his primary concern... in the first point above.

Drake

This is also how I read it. The context of the portions that "forbid a woman to speak" are related to "authority in God's government" -- though I would just say decisions made by the church, especially related to the community of unbelievers and the God ordained authority that the church is to submit to. Quietness is clearly distinct from "following dumb idols" but in the context of the relation with local community suggests not provoking outrage, disturbances and other things that would prevent the church from existing in peace.

What has disturbed me the most about the general debate concerning women's role (not this thread in particular) is the total lack of context as people throw out the quotes. Every single company forbids their employees to speak to the press and and any inquiries by the press are to be directed to the proper authority. No one sees that as sexist but rather practical and prudent. It smacks of hypocrisy to me.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

aron, do you see the difference between a sister who teaches other sisters, or children, or ministers to others, or prophesying in the meetings.... all those vs the definition above? Is that distinction not clear whether you agree with it or not?

Yes, the distinction is clear. Then why does LSM cite womens' teachings as if they had authority?

See below:

“When I started working in the United States in 1961, I led the saints to exercise their spirit from the very beginning. During those years, traveling from coast to coast, I visited many places. After hearing my messages, many older Christians who were well-acquainted with the Bible and had even gone through theological training came to me and said that they hand never known that man had a spirit. Christians in general are very vague about this matter. The Chinese metaphysics were also quite ignorant of man’s spirit. They divided man into two parts, one part being invisible, which is man’s soul which they referred to as man’s higher form, and the other part being visible, which is man’s body which they referred to as man’s lower form. As last as the turn of this century, there was still a major turbulence aroused when Mrs. Penn-Lewis spoke on the tripartite man, especially in the distinction between the spirit and the soul.” Witness Lee, Messages in Preparation for the Spread of the Gospel p.30

“The fallen mind is corrupt and causes men to resist the truth (1 Tim 6:5; 2 Tim 3:8). According to Titus 1:15, the natural mind is also defiled. As Jessie Penn-Lewis says, “We therefore clearly see how, in the natural man, the mind is ‘darkened’, ‘puffed up’ by the flesh, empty and vain in its thoughts, carnal because governed by the flesh, and in all its activities – whether apparently ‘good’ or visibly ‘bad’ – at enmity with God” Ron Kangas, Mind bending or mind renewing? (a 1977 booklet in reply to Jack Sparks)

http://contendingforthefaith.org/en/...mind-renewing/

“Some people say that no one ever told the American Christians that man has a spirit. This saying is in fact not accurate because in the last one hundred years in America a few famous spiritual authors have mentioned the human spirit in their writings. For example, the diagram of the three circles is taken from the book God’s Pan of Redemption, written by an American sister, Mary E. McDonough. When you open this book, you will see the diagram of the three circles. . . “ Witness Lee, Truth, Life, the Church and the Gospel – The Four Great Pillars in the Lord’s Recovery p 73

I'm sure that we could find dozens of citations like these if we kept looking. My question is, Why does LSM cite women as though having authority, independently presenting "crucial matters" and "great pillars" of doctrinal truth? Do they think their readership is so dull, or insipid, as to miss the glaring discrepancy?

If you go to the LSM website, and look at online publications by title, under 'G', there are only three authors listed: Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, and Mary E. McDonough.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes, the distinction is clear. Then why does LSM cite womens' teachings as if they had authority?

See below:

“When I started working in the United States in 1961, I led the saints to exercise their spirit from the very beginning. During those years, traveling from coast to coast, I visited many places. After hearing my messages, many older Christians who were well-acquainted with the Bible and had even gone through theological training came to me and said that they hand never known that man had a spirit. Christians in general are very vague about this matter. The Chinese metaphysics were also quite ignorant of man’s spirit. They divided man into two parts, one part being invisible, which is man’s soul which they referred to as man’s higher form, and the other part being visible, which is man’s body which they referred to as man’s lower form. As last as the turn of this century, there was still a major turbulence aroused when Mrs. Penn-Lewis spoke on the tripartite man, especially in the distinction between the spirit and the soul.” Witness Lee, Messages in Preparation for the Spread of the Gospel p.30

“The fallen mind is corrupt and causes men to resist the truth (1 Tim 6:5; 2 Tim 3:8). According to Titus 1:15, the natural mind is also defiled. As Jessie Penn-Lewis says, “We therefore clearly see how, in the natural man, the mind is ‘darkened’, ‘puffed up’ by the flesh, empty and vain in its thoughts, carnal because governed by the flesh, and in all its activities – whether apparently ‘good’ or visibly ‘bad’ – at enmity with God” Ron Kangas, Mind bending or mind renewing? (a 1977 booklet in reply to Jack Sparks)

http://contendingforthefaith.org/en/...mind-renewing/

“Some people say that no one ever told the American Christians that man has a spirit. This saying is in fact not accurate because in the last one hundred years in America a few famous spiritual authors have mentioned the human spirit in their writings. For example, the diagram of the three circles is taken from the book God’s Pan of Redemption, written by an American sister, Mary E. McDonough. When you open this book, you will see the diagram of the three circles. . . “ Witness Lee, Truth, Life, the Church and the Gospel – The Four Great Pillars in the Lord’s Recovery p 73

I'm sure that we could find dozens of citations like these if we kept looking. My question is, Why does LSM cite women as though having authority, independently presenting "crucial matters" and "great pillars" of doctrinal truth? Do they think their readership is so dull, or insipid, as to miss the glaring discrepancy?

If you go to the LSM website, and look at online publications by title, under 'G', there are only three authors listed: Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, and Mary E. McDonough.

Strong points aron. Methinks Lee failed to tell us that he and Nee were infected with Penn-Lewis's devilish Spirit-quenching Jezebel side. She killed the Welsh revival, and beguiled Evan Roberts' mind. She also believed born again Christian's could be demon possessed. Maybe she was right on that one, like she was with the tripartite man. Seems she knew Christian's could be demon possessed. Cuz she was. Yet Nee and Lee revered her.

Lee made me love her. I read her books. It took leaving the LC for me to discover the truth about her. Lee can't be trusted to tell the truth ... about her or Nee ... or about God.