Bible Answer Man Converts to Eastern Orthodox!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Silly duck-duck, I don't have to pray-read John 16 to see that Jesus speaks of the father, son, and helper.

But maybe if I pray-read it long enough I'll see the Trinitarian Creeds in there.

I'm just wondering why Jesus failed to spell out those creeds right then and there, so we wouldn't have to wait hundreds of years to finally get it.

Pray-read? You're a funny brother Untohim. That's a method of seeing things in scripture that aren't there. And it wasn't even mentioned in the creeds ... that also saw things that aren't there.

And the words Bible (book) and canon are extra-Biblical ... like trinity.

And when Paul wrote his letters, they too were "extra-biblical", until they were accepted as biblical.

At that time there was no such thing as "solo scriptura". There was scripture, there was oral tradition, there was life experiences. So they sought to redefine God's nature according to their experience of Christ and the Spirit. It was never borne from a "sola scriptura" reading of the Old Testament, which clearly says "God is One".

The ante-Nicene Fathers provide support for the Trinity so it is correct and is also biblical.

However they do not go into such detail that would provide support or denial of the finer aspects such as the relationship between the three persons. It is these finer aspects which are extra-biblical, the ones that say Jesus is not the Father and Jesus is not the Son. Such doctrines were formulated much later when the Church sought to refine the doctrine against new heresies. It was important for them to clearly delineate between the three persons for the sake of the particular heresies which arose.

However the bible alone never explains in great detail whether Jesus is the Father or not, and in fact a plain literal reading of Isaiah and other verses we would conclude that Jesus is the Father and Jesus became the Spirit. That's what the bible plainly says, in English and in Greek or Hebrew. There is nothing in the original text to say "Jesus is like a father", and "Jesus became only like the Spirit but not actually the Spirit". If Jesus is not the Father then Immanuel, "God with us" cannot be true. Jesus would be called "like God with us".

I think it is kind of sad to see Christians scratching their head, confused about who the Spirit is, when the bible clearly says the Spirit is Jesus. So they pray and talk to someone they call Jesus, but the Spirit is treated as another different person.

I think that reading Scripture alone, we might even conclude that there are four or five persons of the Trinity, as a fourth possible person, the Word, is seen in John chapter 1. Those who don't know that the Word is Christ, could wrongly say that the Word is the fourth person.

In any case, I don't see much biblical support for the idea that God will judge anyone for incorrectly defining his true nature. I feel the most honest interpretation is one which declares that it is an unknowable mystery however our experience tells us that as far as we know, God is a Trinity. And in 2000 years time will God reveal himself again and we have to think of another person? I don't think so, but that is what happened between the Old and the New Testaments when God who was One became , or was revealed, rather, to us as both One and Three.

[JJ]

I'm not sure how this thread evolved into a discussion of "The Trinity". Boy if we figure out how to explain that we will have solved a 2000+ year mystery!

I'll resist the temptation and appreciate that through Christ we have been given access to the Father through the Spirit and come forward to the throne of grace!

[JJ]

Back to Hank Hanegraff. I wish him no ill, and am praying for him too.

My one experience with Hanegraff's CRI was an e-mail to ask if the brothers from TLR ever apologized or expressed regret for suing CRI. The e-mail response from one CRI's "researchers" was to say they had investigated TLR, sent me a link to the article everyone already saw, and say the case was closed. Then he asked for a donation to CRI. Kinda turned me off.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

The e-mail response .. was to say they had investigated TLR, sent me a link to the article everyone already saw, and say the case was closed. Then he asked for a donation to CRI.

The CRI was a cash cow for Hank, that was pretty obvious. As a public non-profit the records were open, and Hank's expense accounts were lavish. And his wife was on the payroll for like $150K from what I remember (Hank got something like $400K annually, plus 2 new Lexus, plus exclusive golf club membership, plus free housing, etc).

And he left behind a trail of former employees who went on record saying that they were overworked, had their intellectual property (writing) stolen, and were underpaid. It didn't look like a Christian organization in the slightest. And yet this was the supposed watchdog of Protestant orthodoxy? Did we come to this?

TLR's critiques of "fallen Christianity" are often on the mark, or at least with some basis. But if you put the same measure on them they fail utterly. And their getting approved by CRI is like a government getting recognized by North Korea. So what.

[Kevin]

The Impact of the Living Stream Ministries Cult on Hank Hanegraaff

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The Impact of the Living Stream Ministries Cult on Hank Hanegraaff

I wouldn't trust anything written by someone who believes Hank and Witness Lee are damned:

If Hanegraaff and the others involved at CRI honestly believe that Witness Lee and Living Stream Ministries teach “sound orthodoxy” then they are just as damned as Lee.

This guy is an example of someone who has turned away from correct view that justification is a person, which the apostles believed, not caring for a particular theology, Calvinist, reformed, or otherwise, and have instead trusted in their so-called "orthodox sound doctrine" for salvation.

These people claim to live by sola fide (faith alone) but in actuality it is a complex web of doctrines and interpretations of the bible dating from around 500 years ago (not the time of the apostles) by which they measure, judge and condemn all others. And their condemnation at the time 500 years ago involved burning at the stake or other forms of execution of people they perceived to be heretics.

As Luther wrote:

If we punish thieves with the yoke, highwaymen with the sword, and heretics with fire, why do we not rather assault these monsters of perdition, these cardinals, these popes, and the whole swarm of the Roman Sodom, who corrupt youth and the Church of God? Why do we not rather assault them with arms and wash our hands in their blood?

[UntoHim]

Mr. E. Why do you think Hank Hanegraaff turned to the Orthodox Church instead of The Local Church of Witness Lee? He studied and actually participated in meetings/conferences of The Local Church for about 6 years, and as far as is publicly known, he never did a formal study or participated in the Orthodox Church for even 6 days. So why did he choose the Orthodox Church as a closer "expression of New Testament Christianity" than The Local Church? If, as Minoru Chen boasted, Hank's contact with the Local Church was "a life changing experience", why didn't he jump headfirst into "the glorious Church Life"? Instead, he chose to give the rest of his life to something closely related to "The Great Whore of Babylon"?
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