Women's Role

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is a factual observation from which he infers a doctrine. But there are other equally plausible theories that can be inferred.

For example, the church is a hospital based on the parable of the good samaritan. Many damaged believers will be saved with the need of being restored. One primary focus of this damage is on the family. Hence the NT sets up elders as examples to the flock. This is why it is crucial that an elder be the husband of one wife who has led his family well, and it is crucial that the wife of the elder be able to teach and shepherd the sisters.

There is no such requirement to be an evangelist, or prophet, or apostle, or any other gifted member.

But the church is a family of God and as such God wants certain ones to be set forth as a good example to help the rest of the saints.

Instead of viewing elders as "leaders" which is insulting to Jesus, why not just view them as examples to the flock who are able to teach others. There is no "theological discourse" requirement to be an elder, but there is the requirement to be the husband of one wife, to lead your family well, to be of good reputation in the community.

If there are no leaders then the discussion of female leadership is moot.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If there are no leaders then the discussion of female leadership is moot.

Who were Watchman Nee's "Leaders" for the earliest part of his Christian life? Not a trick question, my friend. The answer is well documented.
-

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Who were Watchman Nee's "Leaders" for the earliest part of his Christian life? Not a trick question, my friend. The answer is well documented.
-

Were these women functioning as elders in the church, above, or equal to men? Not a trick question, either.

Their influence is well acknowledged by LSM and by Lee as well. I wonder where that leaves this false idea floating around that the Recovery is somehow against women.

The Recovery to my knowledge is not against women in ministry like those who helped Nee. This is about women being appointed elders in a local church, and to my knowledge none of the women influencing Nee's life were in such a position.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Were these women functioning as elders in the church, above, or equal to men? Not a trick question, either.

They were functioning in a capacity far exceeding that of an elder in many respects. They were functioning as shepherds of Nee's soul. It's impossible to be someone's shepherd unless you are, in a very real sense, their leader. The founder of your sect/movement was lead by women. Sorry if this hurts your male ego or antiquated sensibilities.

Their influence is well acknowledged by LSM and by Lee as well. I wonder where that leaves this false idea floating around that the Recovery is somehow against women.

Witness Lee hardly mentioned these women for the last 20-25 years of his so-called ministry. I heard Lee speak for hundreds of messages in person and can't actually recall him mentioning these sisters more than a couple of times..and that only in passing. I know that he mentioned them in his biography of Nee. The treatment of sisters/women in the Local Church is well-documented in this forum, and much of the mistreatment has been perpetrated by leaders who picked up their despicable attitude directly from the words and actions of their dear Brother Lee.

The Recovery to my knowledge is not against women in ministry like those who helped Nee.

Dude, what planet do you live on? Seriously, I wonder sometimes if you live in some Local Church parallel universe in which everything is opposite of what is taught and practiced in the actual Local Church of Witness Lee.
-

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

They were functioning in a capacity far exceeding that of an elder in many respects. They were functioning as shepherds of Nee's soul. It's impossible to be someone's shepherd unless you are, in a very real sense, their leader. The founder of your sect/movement was lead by women. Sorry if this hurts your male ego or antiquated sensibilities.
-

Well, we could say that his mother was even more important than those women, and was in a "very real sense" his "leader".

Does this mean his mother is qualified to lead a church? No.

The answer to my simple question was "no, they were not functioning as elders in a corporate gathering, or the local assembly".

And why did Nee not appoint female elders, if he thought those women were qualified?

The fact that Nee himself did not appoint female elders in "his church" proves that he would not agree with your position. I wonder if he passed on those instructions to Lee.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Witness Lee hardly mentioned these women for the last 20-25 years of his so-called ministry. I heard Lee speak for hundreds of messages in person and can't actually recall him mentioning these sisters more than a couple of times..and that only in passing. I know that he mentioned them in his biography of Nee. The treatment of sisters/women in the Local Church is well-documented in this forum, and much of the mistreatment has been perpetrated by leaders who picked up their despicable attitude directly from the words and actions of their dear Brother Lee.
-

Just like the bible then, which mentions sisters only a couple of times, and that only in passing.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Dude, what planet do you live on? Seriously, I wonder sometimes if you live in some Local Church parallel universe in which everything is opposite of what is taught and practiced in the actual Local Church of Witness Lee.
-

There are no female elders but women can fulfill their ministry in the local churches, no one is stopping them.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

women can fulfill their ministry in the local churches, no one is stopping them.

Do you really believe that Ruth Lee or Peace Wang could fulfill their ministry in the LSM-affiliated local churches today? Or that "famous spiritual author" Mary McDonough could write the book God's Plan of Redemption, cited by Lee? (see e.g., Four great pillars in the Lord's Recovery [2002], p.73)?

None of them would last a fortnight if they tried to fulfill their ministries today.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If there are no leaders then the discussion of female leadership is moot.

Oh, guess you missed my point.

If a key mission of the church is a "hospital" where damaged sinners can recuperate (based on the parable of the Good Samaritan) and if one of the key ways in which people in the world are damaged are the various sins that kill families (fornication, addictions -- alcohol, gambling, drugs, pursuit of getting rich, etc.) then it stands to reason that part of the "treatment" to restore saints would be to help them have a healthy marriage life.

This hypothesis, that the church is concerned with healthy marriages, is supported by the fact that elders must exemplify a healthy marriage (husband of one wife, not a drunkard, good reputation, raise family well).

If the selection of elders with this goal in mind (setting up a healthy example of marriage to the flock as well as providing people who can counsel others) then it becomes obvious that the selection of an elder includes the selection of the elder's wife who must be able to teach the younger women.

My point is not that there is no leadership, but rather those chosen as examples to the flock are chosen as an example of a healthy marriage, hence male and female.

Since Paul requires these elder women to teach the younger it is perfectly reasonable to say that this includes the use of books, videos, TV, radio, blogs, etc. Hence there is no reason a sister could not have a prevailing ministry while having her head fully covered by the fellowship of the apostles.

Also, since women outnumber men in the church (2:1 or more) then it stands to reason that a ministry that ministers to sisters could be twice as impactful as that to men. Perhaps the reason that the NT requires men to fill certain roles is that if we didn't we might become completely insignificant in the church. Or as Paul said "23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness."