Bible Answer Man Converts to Eastern Orthodox!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

Actually, while your statement is true, that is the same as saying "The red crayon is the green crayon. You can't get more crayon than that."

Jesus is God, but Jesus is not the Father. I am an American, but I am not Ohio (who is also American).

The problem is that Lee violates one of the foundational errors of logic. The parts of a set are not each the other parts of the set. Neither is the set simply one of the parts.
This is the theological construct that Lee sets out to violate. The Trinity is a unity, but that does not confound the persons such that the Son is the Father or the Spirit. But as God they are a single, unified One.

It's funny that you appeal to logic to explain the Trinity, which indicates you don't truly understand the Trinity at all. Those who say the Trinity is logical have likely become tritheist or unitarian. There is no possible logic that could deal with the case of God being both one and three at the same time, much less try to establish, as you have by logic, the intricacies between the 3 Persons.

The classical viewpoint is that the Trinity is a mystery, it is not logical at all.

This mystery is typically expressed in this way:

Perhaps the deepest, the most profound of all mysteries is the mystery of the Trinity. The Church teaches us that although there is only one God, yet, somehow, there are three Persons in God.

https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/goda22.htm

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical quotes

The Church teaches us that although there is only one God, yet, somehow, there are three Persons in God.

Yes, the church thaught the trinity. Cuz it wasn't taught by Jesus, Paul, or in New Testament times. It was a later term and invention. And now it's widely accepted dogma. It's one thing Christians have in common ... and we can pretty much thank the RCC for it.

[UntoHim]

Silly man, Jesus Christ was actually the first trinitarian. He was constantly speaking of "the Father", "my Father", "our Father", and of course the trinity is fully "revealed" in John 16 when He speaks of "The Spirit of Truth". As for the apostle Paul, well he is considered to be "the father of trinitarian theology". My man, if would would spend more time reading Romans than Bart Ehrman, you wouldn't be making such absurd statements in the first place. Not to mention you might just pick up some vital truths to rattle around in that noggin of yours.

The so-called church fathers did not "invent" the trinity or trinitarian theology, they only became the defenders and apologists of what was clearly related in the ministry and teachings of Jesus Christ and the original scripture writing apostles in the New Testament.

There's your free theology/church history lesson for the day my dear friend. Now go and sin no more!
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[awareness]

Well thanks bro for that theology/church history lesson. I can never hear it enough.

But still, in no place in the New Testament record is there a well spelled out, clearly defined, teaching or doctrine of or on the trinity. And I don't need to tell you, oh great theologian/church historian, that the word trinity appears nowhere in the NT. It wasn't introduced until the late 2nd c. (conceived as : God, Logos, Sophia.) And the theology of the trinity, as we know it today, didn't take shape until the late 4th c.

But we understand why it took so long to develop : it's a mystery. And it doesn't add up mathematically. 3 doesn't = 1, and 1 doesn't = 3.

Consequently it heats up the wiring in my brain when I try to add it up. Subsequently the trinity blows my mind.

Thank God the Spirit searches the deep things of God - I Cor. 2:10

It just didn't reveal the deep things of the trinity until the RCC came into power ... so it appears. Maybe the RCC didn't get everything wrong. Then again, maybe it did. Maybe it took Christianity completely off its rocker.

To the point that Witness Lee modeled his Recovery movement after it. Lee also liked to play word games with the trinity -- like, Christ is the Father, and the Spirit, and the son, all rolled up in one. If that doesn't blow a 50amp fuse in your brain, nothing will. It's like telling me I can fill a 5 gallon bucket with 100% oil, and 100% water.

[UntoHim]

Silly goose, the word "Bible" is not in the Bible either! The word "theology" is the not in the Bible either. The word "canon" is not in the Bible either. Does this mean that none of these things existed before the actual terms themselves were coined by mere men? Surely a deep thinker like you could not believe such a thing! Maybe on Fridays you do?

Again, the actual word, term or notion of "the trinity" may have been coined and/or enunciated at a later date by us puny-minded, insignificant conglomeration of dust and DNA, but as I said, The Lord Jesus clearly "revealed" the Trinity in the Gospel of John chapter 16. Take a couple of minutes out of your busy day and Pray-Read this masterpiece from the Master Himself. It's all there for you my dear friend. (pray)Read it and reap.
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[awareness]

Silly duck-duck, I don't have to pray-read John 16 to see that Jesus speaks of the father, son, and helper.

But maybe if I pray-read it long enough I'll see the Trinitarian Creeds in there.

I'm just wondering why Jesus failed to spell out those creeds right then and there, so we wouldn't have to wait hundreds of years to finally get it.

Pray-read? You're a funny brother Untohim. That's a method of seeing things in scripture that aren't there. And it wasn't even mentioned in the creeds ... that also saw things that aren't there.

And the words Bible (book) and canon are extra-Biblical ... like trinity.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Silly duck-duck, I don't have to pray-read John 16 to see that Jesus speaks of the father, son, and helper.

But maybe if I pray-read it long enough I'll see the Trinitarian Creeds in there.

I'm just wondering why Jesus failed to spell out those creeds right then and there, so we wouldn't have to wait hundreds of years to finally get it.

Pray-read? You're a funny brother Untohim. That's a method of seeing things in scripture that aren't there. And it wasn't even mentioned in the creeds ... that also saw things that aren't there.

And the words Bible (book) and canon are extra-Biblical ... like trinity.

And when Paul wrote his letters, they too were "extra-biblical", until they were accepted as biblical.

At that time there was no such thing as "solo scriptura". There was scripture, there was oral tradition, there was life experiences. So they sought to redefine God's nature according to their experience of Christ and the Spirit. It was never borne from a "sola scriptura" reading of the Old Testament, which clearly says "God is One".

The ante-Nicene Fathers provide support for the Trinity so it is correct and is also biblical.

However they do not go into such detail that would provide support or denial of the finer aspects such as the relationship between the three persons. It is these finer aspects which are extra-biblical, the ones that say Jesus is not the Father and Jesus is not the Son. Such doctrines were formulated much later when the Church sought to refine the doctrine against new heresies. It was important for them to clearly delineate between the three persons for the sake of the particular heresies which arose.

However the bible alone never explains in great detail whether Jesus is the Father or not, and in fact a plain literal reading of Isaiah and other verses we would conclude that Jesus is the Father and Jesus became the Spirit. That's what the bible plainly says, in English and in Greek or Hebrew. There is nothing in the original text to say "Jesus is like a father", and "Jesus became only like the Spirit but not actually the Spirit". If Jesus is not the Father then Immanuel, "God with us" cannot be true. Jesus would be called "like God with us".

I think it is kind of sad to see Christians scratching their head, confused about who the Spirit is, when the bible clearly says the Spirit is Jesus. So they pray and talk to someone they call Jesus, but the Spirit is treated as another different person.

I think that reading Scripture alone, we might even conclude that there are four or five persons of the Trinity, as a fourth possible person, the Word, is seen in John chapter 1. Those who don't know that the Word is Christ, could wrongly say that the Word is the fourth person.

In any case, I don't see much biblical support for the idea that God will judge anyone for incorrectly defining his true nature. I feel the most honest interpretation is one which declares that it is an unknowable mystery however our experience tells us that as far as we know, God is a Trinity. And in 2000 years time will God reveal himself again and we have to think of another person? I don't think so, but that is what happened between the Old and the New Testaments when God who was One became , or was revealed, rather, to us as both One and Three.