SPLIT THREAD - Control and Addiction in the Local Church

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by djohnson

I'll accept that leaders have more responsibility

Well that's good of you since after all it is a major biblical theme

...regardless of the exact number some of it is squarely on their shoulders.

Nobody is saying that people are not to blame for their actions (that's a biblical theme as well). Maybe part of the recovery process for ex members should be a cold, hard assessment of how it is they fell pray to this kind of control, maybe helping them and their loved ones to avoid such pitfalls in the future. I understand fully why ex members are kind of resistant to this kind of painful introspection...it ain't real fun, especially when you are going it alone. Of course this is part of the need and value of this forum here, and it is a big motivation to keep it going

...If this fairy tale is never accepted in the first place then leaders can be held accountable and protocols with checks and balances can be put in place that protects followers from abusive leadership.

Nice afterthought my friend, but that is a whole lot of water that has already passed under the bridge for a whole lot of people. In my view it is not going to do anybody much good to start estimating how many gazillion gallons of water have passed through, but rather just issue the wake-up call and maybe help some people get the heck off of the bridge.

In any event, it is more then obvious that there was/is a whole lot of control, abuse and addiction issues taking place in the Local Church of Witness Lee. One would have hoped that when Lee passed along things would have gotten a bit better in this regard....and, unfortunately, we now know that one would have been dead wrong about this. It just goes to show you that when the "personality" of a personality cult (sect if you like) dies, the cult (sect) does not necessarily pass away in turn. This also goes to show you that the Local Church is something much more then just a church or group of churches, it is a religion, or to be more technical, a religious system. This particular system is not only fueled by doctrinal error (a real biggie to be sure), it is fueled by all kinds of control, abuse and addiction, which are all aspects of the modern human condition I'm afraid.

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[IDon'tKnow]

I remember one brother told me that basically he wasn't experiencing anything, but that he had faith that he was experiencing even though he wasn't. Anyway I get the impression that when it came down to it he had been brought to a point where it didn't matter whether the ministry matched his experience, his inward feeling, his outward situation, anything, all that mattered was that the ministry was the correct interpretation of the bible, and that if anything within him disagreed with the ministry that was from the self and the soul and not to be trusted, after all the ministry said so. This definitely seemed to be my experience anyway, and from looking around I wouldn't be shocked if it reflected the experiences of many. My point is that I think that to a certain extent the ministry brings people to the point where they due to the inherently subjective nature of spiritual experiences (How can you really tell the difference between the spirit and the soul anyway) are unwilling to trust what they are experiencing simply to trust what is spoken in the ministry, after all it was from the minister of the age hence his spiritual experience is to be trusted. I.E. people are brought to a point where they are no longer capable of trusting any of their own faculties. Would this count as mind control? I don't know. I would be interested in hearing the experiences of others related to this.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Maybe part of the recovery process for ex members should be a cold, hard assessment of how it is they fell pray to this kind of control, maybe helping them and their loved ones to avoid such pitfalls in the future. I understand fully why ex members are kind of resistant to this kind of painful introspection...it ain't real fun, especially when you are going it alone.

When I first entered the LC's in the mid 70's in Cleveland, I truly was filled in the Spirit thru the fellowship in the meetings. They truly were life-changing to me in so many ways. I tasted and experienced something purely divine according to God's word, and the normal result in my heart was to submit myself to these ones in the fear of God. From where I was coming from, firstly the RCC and then headlong into the world, this all was new territory for me. The exceeding great joy within produced the fruit of submission in me, and that in itself was a great miracle.

Within a very short time, LSM operatives had begun to take advantage of this godly submission within me and others. By the summer of '77, I was literally told by an older Cleveland brother that, "get yourself ready, you are in the Lord's army, He is moving to the campuses, and you will be told where to move to." Here you can see the effect LSM had upon the LC's, with shepherding brothers reinforcing LSM directives, all at the expense of the young saints, whose only desire was to be pleasing to the Lord.

Slowly, as time passed by, the level of joy slowly subsided, while the levels of control and mistreatment ratcheted up. Sometimes the changes were inperceptible, other times, like during the "new way," radical changes were disguised by "spiritual talk." Of course, each person's character and context was slightly different, and each had his own acceptable limits.

I place nearly all the responsibility squarely on the leaders. They took advantage of God's heritage. Shame on them. Shame on all the evil workers who have hurt God's children. They have become savage wolves preying on God's sheep. (Acts 20.29)

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I place nearly all the responsibility squarely on the leaders. They took advantage of God's heritage. Shame on them. Shame on all the evil workers who have hurt God's children. They have become savage wolves preying on God's sheep. (Acts 20.29)

Actually Ohio your personal testimony was very helpful and supportive of the points being made many here. Hopefully there will be some good feedback - this is what a discussion forum is all about!

My only concern here is that we don't get into flame wars. Words like "infantile" and believing in Santa Clause comparisons are inflammatory, and I just wanted to nip this in the bud before it got out of hand. dJohnson knows this, he is a longtime poster on these forums and knows what buttons to push.

Carry on guys.

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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Frankly any adult who seriously believes that Lee was God's sole oracle on the earth, their church is the only legit one and there should only be one publication i.e. LSMs is really gullible and infantile. The marketing masters at LSM have got them duped. As mentioned previously I equate it with someone buying a dog that the owner claims can fly. Or an adult believing in Santa Claus. If your neighbor told you tomorrow that he seriously believed in Santa Claus and was going on an dogsled expedition to the North Pole to visit him and Mrs Claus and all the elves what would you think?

djohnson, Why is it so obvious to many of us that you also were once "duped" by LSM, and that is why, like us, that you decided to post on this forum?

I bet you used to believe in Santa Claus too.

[OBW]

Ohio,

I don't think he was duped like we were. Or at least never at the same level. That sets him apart as never being one of those gullible and infantile people duped by the LC. As long as he can keep making it all about the sheep and not the self-proclaimed shepherd(s), then he stands out as wiser — at least in his own mind.

He's quite proud that he is an outsider with limited first-hand knowledge, but with a friend who feeds him all the stuff so he can dish it out. Since he can't really understand it from an insider's perspective he is neither LC nor ex-LC and can skewer all. It's sort of like when those Hollywood actors start providing "facts" about the environment and politics. They speak loudly and demand that we all listen and follow them. But they have no evidence that what they say has any substance.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

He's quite proud that he is an outsider with limited first-hand knowledge, but with a friend who feeds him all the stuff so he can dish it out.

Where was he all those years while his "gullible and infantile friend" was being "duped by the LC."

[UntoHim]

Steady as she goes me mates! Let's stay on course, shall we?

From "Regarding registering and posting on this forum":
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...hread.php?t=32

* Personal attacks, insults, flaming and trolling will not be tolerated. A good rule of thumb would be to not post anything on this board that you would not say to somebody's face.

Maybe djohnson should consider running his posts by his "friend" before he places them on the forum here. Or better yet, have your "friend" come here, register and post. Why should he not join in on all the fun?

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[Ohio]

UntoHim,

Sorry, my bad.

I posted a personal testimony (possibly a more vulnerable moment?) thinking back 30+ years of my life, so that others could maybe understand some of the personal dynamics within, (considering myself as a typical LC'er) concerning these matters of "control vs. submission," hoping to get some helpful feedback from others, but ... I got caught off guard by the words "gullible infantile duped."

Thanks for the reminder.