"The Matter of Gaining African-Americans"

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Clem, Ricky, and Paul never taught that. Hypocrisy by who?

Witness Lee taught it. So, it is hypocrisy for LC leaders to practice it now as a matter of convenience.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Witness Lee taught it. So, it is hypocrisy for LC leaders to practice it now as a matter of convenience.

Did Witness Lee also teach that you should be led by the Spirit?

Did Witness Lee also teach that you should repent of dead works?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Did Witness Lee also teach that you should be led by the Spirit?

Did Witness Lee also teach that you should repent of dead works?

Yes? And did he give his followers that liberty?

[Koinonia]

Also, ZNPanneah, this effort, as shown in all of these letters, is not about the gospel. It's about trying to get black people to join the LC.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Also, ZNPanneah, this effort, as shown in all of these letters, is not about the gospel. It's about trying to get black people to join the LC.

You sound incredibly judgmental.

11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You sound incredibly judgmental.

11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

It is what it is.

[UntoHim]

ZNP, please refrain from bating, being overly argumentative or ad hominens. Address the issues at hand and not the poster or his supposed motives. Everyone is just a poster on the open forum and is not being set up as some judge. In short...lighten up a bit bro.
-

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Also, ZNPanneah, this effort, as shown in all of these letters, is not about the gospel. It's about trying to get black people to join the LC.

Koinonia,

At best this is a terrible misunderstanding.

First, it is a desire to reflect the local demographics in the local churches. The membership in the USA should not be mostly Chinese just because Brother Lee and Brother Nee were from China. So a concerted effort to break that propensity is a noble thing. No one is suggesting to add unsaved people to the churches to increase the demographic mix.

Second, some localities already have a racial mix that largely reflects the local society. In London as an example, there are some districts that have far more than 25 in that district alone from the black race but overall the membership for all districts combined appears to reflect that of London. Of course, the churches in Africa would also.

Drake

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Drake

Koinonia,

At best this is a terrible misunderstanding.

First, it is a desire to reflect the local demographics in the local churches. The membership in the USA should not be mostly Chinese just because Brother Lee and Brother Nee were from China. So a concerted effort to break that propensity is a noble thing. No one is suggesting to add unsaved people to the churches to increase the demographic mix.

Second, some localities already have a racial mix that largely reflects the local society. In London as an example, there are some districts that have far more than 25 in that district alone from the black race but overall the membership for all districts combined appears to reflect that of London. Of course, the churches in Africa would also.

Drake

Drake, I would agree with you on your post. I don't know about other countries, but from my experiences primarily on the west coast demographics has changed significantly since the mid-80's. Lack of a fair African-American representation was always present.
Something not many would be willing to concede is the cultural aspect. The local church culture is more attractive to Asians and Hispanics than it may be to African-Americans and Caucasians. It is represented as such in local church demographics. Honestly, before the demographics can change, the culture would need to change.

[aron]

Back in the early '90s Paul Hon used to get the college students to go after 'typical Americans', i.e. Caucasians, especially the males. A white male Caucasian was the high prize of the calling in Christ Jesus. Land a white Caucasian male in your LC boat and you were really something.

This was the same trainer who told us, "don't waste your time" with the poor, the old, the sick. Those who couldn't repay us in this age. Go after the 'good building material' - white college students, especially the males.

The nice thing about Paul Hon and Ray Graver and Benson Philips: nomumbo-jumbo. They always told us like it was. Witness Lee would speak the spiritual stuff from the podium, and that would get printed. Then the LC overlords would tell us what it really meant, if you were still a bit dull and couldn't read between the lines.

So I always appreciated that. And I always remember it.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

Koinonia,

At best this is a terrible misunderstanding.

First, it is a desire to reflect the local demographics in the local churches. The membership in the USA should not be mostly Chinese just because Brother Lee and Brother Nee were from China. So a concerted effort to break that propensity is a noble thing. No one is suggesting to add unsaved people to the churches to increase the demographic mix.

Second, some localities already have a racial mix that largely reflects the local society. In London as an example, there are some districts that have far more than 25 in that district alone from the black race but overall the membership for all districts combined appears to reflect that of London. Of course, the churches in Africa would also.

Drake

Drake, the reason the LC is primarily Chinese is precisely because it is cultural, not "local."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, the reason the LC is primarily Chinese is precisely because it is cultural, not "local."

What's exactly local about any denomination that bears the name of another country?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Drake, the reason the LC is primarily Chinese is precisely because it is cultural, not "local."

Is it primarily? What is your reference?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

the reason the LC is primarily Chinese is precisely because it is cultural, not "local."

I'll give an example of Chinese culture in the LC.

In Acts 15 there was a pressing issue, and the disciples gathered and talked. Eventually they got clear what was God's will for the situation... here's a relevant quote, from vv 6 & 7: "So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter. After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them,"

My question is, where in the LC do you see meetings with "much discussion"? The answer is, No-where. The LC/Chinese culture is not comfortable with much discussion; rather it's the Big Boss speaks and that's it. Discussion equals instability, so rule is by fiat and not by group consensus. Even when he's wrong, Big Boss (aka "Deputy God") is right. Social harmony depends on it. Chairman Mao remains untouchable in the PRC, even 40 years after his death. This is a [Chinese] culturally-driven imperative, not a [Communist] political one.

So when the LCs read the Bible, and see parts that don't fit their cultural model, they just read past it, ignoring it as though it weren't there. Probably most of us do this to some extent: the issue here is that this group thinks that they don't have any cultural blinders on, and everyone else is "darkened, deformed" etc and they alone have the "normal" church. But it's only normal to a certain cultural mind-set: theirs.

And they don't get it. And they don't get that just Asians, predominantly, are comfortable in this culture. And they wonder why their churches are 70% or 80% Asian, when the surrounding community is maybe 5% or 10% Asian. That's because LC culture drives away everyone but the Asians.