SPLIT THREAD - Control and Addiction in the Local Church

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

djohnson, your comments here are extremely naive. If some one held a gun to my head, then I die a victorious overcoming martyr, how glorious ...

OBW has done well in his recent post to identify the type of control that we are talking about. To put this in context, I remember discussing with other young brothers back in the mid 70's, how we can trust our lives in the hands of the older brothers, because they "cared for our souls" ... but ... some of these elders were barely 30 years old. The culture we lived in was different then, and many young people were vulnerable to immature elders. In the end, too much "fellowship," was really manipulation.

DJ,
I was waiting for Ohio to respond to your statements/comments:

Ohio I think "can force" and "against your will" are not that difficult to understand: Did Lee put a gun to your head and make you do something you did not want to do? Doubtful.
His claim that he did not control anybody is valid. That people let themselves be controlled by him is another story altogether. And if the argument is taken further i.e. into the realm of involuntary mind control then we are taking about a cult aren't we?

Now I understand why people on this forum & the other one keep an arms' length around you...a very long arm's length.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

countmeworthy there is no need to be afraid of the truth that Lee did not control anybody and could not do so in a free society. As OBW has pointed out either one aligned their will with Lee's and thus their actions were voluntary or there was involuntary mind control going on in which case it was a cult.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by djohnson

countmeworthy there is no need to be afraid of the truth that Lee did not control anybody and could not do so in a free society. As OBW has pointed out either one aligned their will with Lee's and thus their actions were voluntary or there was involuntary mind control going on in which case it was a cult.

That's why people have been leaving by the hundreds if not thousands over the last 30-40 years. At one time in their tenure in the LC,
people believed they had 'the truth'...'the answer'. Fellowship at the lowest level of the totem pole proved to be very good. It has to be for people to stay and stick it out. It was for me. I also know I needed to be there for the time I was there. It was GOD HIMSELF who led me there and it was GOD HIMSELF who led me out.

For many, many others, leaving the LSM/LC was more complicated...more complex. The closer they were to the top, to Witness Lee, they either saw through him or they embraced him wholeheartedly. That's part of the reason I inquired about the 'promotions' in the LC...co-ordinators, service group leaders, deacons, ushers, elders, co-workers etc.. They didn't just jump into the LC and were given those titles. They 'earned' those titles somehow. They were trusted probably as they demonstrated their loyalty and their commitment.

In the 70's, I would hear John Ingalls was the closest co-worker to Brother Lee. Where Brother Lee was, there was John Ingalls. When I heard he left, I was shocked. No one ever would have imagined John & Lee going separate ways. Max on the other hand was shafted very early on. He was blamed for the debacle at Berkely and who knows what else. Some of it was true I'm sure and some of it not. But no matter, he ended up getting the bum deal..until the next wave of 'rebels' which came from the higher ups questioning Lee's doings.

Still, many continued to hold on to Hope...the Hope of Glory...the HOPE that there actually was a body of believers who stood in one accord with THE WORD of GOD. As time went on, it became clearer and clearer to many that the "in one accord' was about being in one accord in Lee's ministry. Not in Christ.

IF YOU WERE NEVER AN INSIDER, YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND what it was like to be there....no matter WHO YOU KNOW who was in it or is IN IT. You might think you have a handle because of what you know, what you've heard, what you read...but you were never there. Even I who was only there a short time, can only imagine how hard it was for many people to leave who were there for a much longer time than I ever was.

You may pride yourself in thinking you can walk out of controlling situations..walk away from controlling people but you certainly have your shortcomings and weaknesses. And those shortcomings and weaknesses CONTROL YOU, not always perhaps but at times. You are NOT EXEMPT from being manipulated or controlled. It could be something as simple as a candy bar that you can't say no to. Maybe candy bars are not your weakness but something is. And when it grabs hold of you, it's got you under its' control.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

countmeworthy you contradict yourself. You suggest that nobody outside the Lee church can understand the control involved and then you say in essence everyone has experienced control by somone/thing eg. candy bar thus making the experience a universal.

As a correction: I never implied or even remotely suggested that those in Lee's church would have an easy time of leaving. This forum is a clear demonstration of quite the opposite. But with your candy bar example you do bring up a possibility that others including myself have explored in another thread on this forum: addictive behavior. I do believe that many in Lee's church were in fact addicted to him and his ministry. But in coming out of addiction please note that none of the 12 steps blame anyone else i.e. the one with the addiction takes responsibility for their actions after admitting they have a problem in the first place.

[IDon'tKnow]

DJ.
If I can weigh in on this. To do with control. You gave the example of putting a gun to peoples heads. Well if we were to take the example of a gun and replace it with a thousand years outer darkness (as well as the various other curses which could come upon you for rebellion) would that suffice. Sure in this case the gun is fake but if a person comes up to you and says give me all your money whether or not the gun is loaded or fake as long as it looks real you will feel threatened. Add into the mix teaching that suggest that even to pray as to whether or not to take his leading being a subtle form of dissent (In my view cutting believers off from the Lord), and his teaching on the tripartite man, and the self (anything within us suggesting that the he was wrong is of Satan. Everything in you which reacts negatively to his teaching's must be of the enemy (I would say that this is the most cultlike aspect)). Based upon this I would say that from Witness Lee's side that yes indeed he did control many.

However from the our side I would agree with you. We should have sought the Lord's leading regardless, We should have listened to Him inspite of what Witness or anyone else said. That was our responsibility and we must take it. We will not be able to say but Witness Lee forced me to. What I'm saying is that Witness Lee's should be held culpable for manipulating and controlling, Whereas we should be held culpable for allowing ourselves to be manipulated. Or to put it another way if we found ourselves to be doing something in the same vein as what Lee did we should be wary that we are trying to control the saints and repent of this. If we find we are being controlled like Lee did with many of the saints we should be aware that ultimately me are responsible for our own actions.

As to the matter of whether or not people are addicted to Witness Lee and his ministry. While this may be true of some I personally believe that if you were to look at most you would find it would be a combination of long time friendships, fear of 1000 years outer darkness, having the idea that there was nothing outside drummed into you, the idea that if you were to fallback that would cause others to, and the fact that if you spent 10+ years devoted to Lee's ministry leaving it could be considered on some levels to be tantamount to admitting that those 10+ years had been wasted. Somewhat like an investor throwing more and more money into a bad investment hoping against hope it will eventually turn a profit. (That said I guess that might be considered to be somewhat addictive (problem gambling)).

P.S.
For my part at the ending the reason why I left was because the thought of putting more of that stuff into me seemed so horrible that the thought being under it for 10, 20, 30 more years was just intolerable. There was absolutely no thought of getting just one last fix. Quite the opposite. Not saying that the entirety of his stuff is bad. Just that there is some extremely bad stuff mixed in there which for my part made me want to vomit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by djohnson

... addictive behavior. I do believe that many in Lee's church were in fact addicted to him and his ministry. But in coming out of addiction please note that none of the 12 steps blame anyone else i.e. the one with the addiction takes responsibility for their actions after admitting they have a problem in the first place.

djohnson, I don't buy your theories on addictive behavior. No one leaving the ministry needs a 12-step program ... I'm starting to believe you when you say you never were a part of the LC's ...

I'd also say that it is not only the teachings of WL which have control over the saints ... these must be reinforced by leaders on a regional and local level. Since local manipulations affect us personally, they are far more damaging to our personal lives.

I like to see someone analyze and dissect those 3 You-Tube videos of Minoru Chen speaking in Toronto? refuting numerous accusations against the BB's. Perhaps they have been transcribed? MC learned these control techniques well, and of all the BB's, he is perhaps the best. Understand these techniques, and you can understand what holds the saints.

UntoHim, do you think that would be a good thread to start? How to connect You-Tubes to the forum? The other forum has them on the Origens of Shaming thread.