SPLIT THREAD - Control and Addiction in the Local Church

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

CMW,

I hate to say this, but I read the Jon Hamilton article on The Spirit of Jezebel again and had some of the same questions as I did before.

I could be off with respect to the general message of the article, but what I see is to much of the things that I observe in some other "off the reservation" teachings, including Lee's.

I had not heard of Jon Hamilton...so I checked him out before I replied to your post. You are correct he cast his own opinions on the Welsh revival and on JPL. I will also add, a person can go overboard and get paranoid that everyone in authority or leadership has a 'Jezebel spirit'.
As a personal observation..some of the characteristics of the Jezebel spirit are elements we experienced in the LC. I am listing a few:

A Jezebel spirit seeks control through manipulation.
It has a deep hatred of true spiritual authority, [I'm not sure what this actually means. I don't know if this is true or not]
It uses subtle persuasion to gain influence and get close to those in control.
It then uses this position to gradually dominate.

Were not the saints under Lee's ministry manipulated
Who did Lee answer to? Aside from 'God'. We 'know' he worked with Nee and a few others but by the time he was head of the 'local churches-that is 'the Lord's Recovery', he was 'the pope' and answered to no one to my knowledge.
He answered to no one but 'God' and correct me if I'm wrong, but did he ever take the fellowship of his 'co-workers' if they thought he was getting off the beaten path?

Though he is dead, it is LEE's ministry that lives on. Gosh, no one dares to be solely overlooking 'the Lord's Recovery' today. That's why the 'blendeds' are in charge.
Since we are mainly dealing with the Lee ministry on this forum and since I am a 'victim' of allowing myself to have been manipulated, I did a lot of personal research on controlling personalities.

I can be easily influenced and controlled if I'm not watchful and careful.
Growing up as a Catholic, I was 'afraid' to leave the RCC.
In the LC, I/we were told, the CHURCH-the LC church was God's MOVE on the earth. AGAIN a fear tactic.
In my personal journey, I attracted controlling personalities. UGH! And what a price I paid. So I had to figure out WHY these types of personalities were drawn to me or why I attracted these personalities.
That's how I learned about the Jezebel spirit. Jon Hamilton's opinions do not validate absolute truth. But there are elements to ponder. There are other websites that speak of controlling , manipulative personalities, the Jezebel spirit.

There is NO DOUBT in my mind we were controlled. I don't believe for one second "I" was the only one controlled!

It was/is obvious...the 'leading ones' all wear long sleeved white shirts with ties. No more skinny ties though.. (stores probably don't sell them anymore!) That look is a form of manipulation and control.
The Lingo that is exclusive to the LSM/LC from calling on the Lord in the LC tone to the 'amens'. It's all part of the LC control.
The books/messages/conferences/trainings....same look-same message.
--------------
The RCC-same mass all over the world. Don't matter if you're Japanese, Chinese, Indonesian, Caucasian, Nigerian. Every Catholic will feel right at home with the 'mass' no matter where it's being held...because it has 'the look' & the same 'message'.

Their message is once a Catholic, always a catholic. Why are Catholics who are raised in the RCC afraid to leave?...not afraid to sin...just afraid to leave the RCC.

The LSM/LC has the same spirit as the RCC. That's why there are forums like these to bring to light & help those who might be struggling to leave the LSM/LC. We did it...so can they.

In the Bible, Jezebel had a weak husband & she controlled him. Even Elijah was afraid of Jezebel!
The question to quote Ohio is that:

It's difficult for most of us "common folk" to understand the complexities of gifted, talented men, since they seem to possess enormous powers which, for the most part, are foreign to us.

The best answer I can offer is it's a 'spiritual' thing. (not in a good way.) But that's not to say every leader or person in authority has a controlling spirit on them!

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Ohio I think "can force" and "against your will" are not that difficult to understand: Did Lee put a gun to your head and make you do something you did not want to do? Doubtful.

His claim that he did not control anybody is valid. That people let themselves be controlled by him is another story altogether. And if the argument is taken further i.e. into the realm of involuntary mind control then we are taking about a cult aren't we?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Ohio I think "can force" and "against your will" are not that difficult to understand: Did Lee put a gun to your head and make you do something you did not want to do? Doubtful.

His claim that he did not control anybody is valid. That people let themselves be controlled by him is another story altogether. And if the argument is taken further i.e. into the realm of involuntary mind control then we are taking about a cult aren't we?

djohnson, your comments here are extremely naive. If some one held a gun to my head, then I die a victorious overcoming martyr, how glorious ...

OBW has done well in his recent post to identify the type of control that we are talking about. To put this in context, I remember discussing with other young brothers back in the mid 70's, how we can trust our lives in the hands of the older brothers, because they "cared for our souls" ... but ... some of these elders were barely 30 years old. The culture we lived in was different then, and many young people were vulnerable to immature elders. In the end, too much "fellowship," was really manipulation.

OBW: But control is not just forcing to act against will, but also to control the will so that it aligns with the controller and therefore does what it would not do before the change in will. It includes an altering of the will so that you willingly do what you would not do at some time in the past. Your analysis is presuming a strong will that sees, hears, and recognizes the attach upon it before it allows itself to be changed. But if we, and our wills, are not on guard, we can often be persuaded to change in very small ways. Then more small ways. Then even more. Eventually, our will is very different.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

djohnson, your comments here are extremely naive. If some one held a gun to my head, then I die a victorious overcoming martyr, how glorious ...

OBW has done well in his recent post to identify the type of control that we are talking about. To put this in context, I remember discussing with other young brothers back in the mid 70's, how we can trust our lives in the hands of the older brothers, because they "cared for our souls" ... but ... some of these elders were barely 30 years old. The culture we lived in was different then, and many young people were vulnerable to immature elders. In the end, too much "fellowship," was really manipulation.

DJ,
I was waiting for Ohio to respond to your statements/comments:

Ohio I think "can force" and "against your will" are not that difficult to understand: Did Lee put a gun to your head and make you do something you did not want to do? Doubtful.
His claim that he did not control anybody is valid. That people let themselves be controlled by him is another story altogether. And if the argument is taken further i.e. into the realm of involuntary mind control then we are taking about a cult aren't we?

Now I understand why people on this forum & the other one keep an arms' length around you...a very long arm's length.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

countmeworthy there is no need to be afraid of the truth that Lee did not control anybody and could not do so in a free society. As OBW has pointed out either one aligned their will with Lee's and thus their actions were voluntary or there was involuntary mind control going on in which case it was a cult.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by djohnson

countmeworthy there is no need to be afraid of the truth that Lee did not control anybody and could not do so in a free society. As OBW has pointed out either one aligned their will with Lee's and thus their actions were voluntary or there was involuntary mind control going on in which case it was a cult.

That's why people have been leaving by the hundreds if not thousands over the last 30-40 years. At one time in their tenure in the LC,
people believed they had 'the truth'...'the answer'. Fellowship at the lowest level of the totem pole proved to be very good. It has to be for people to stay and stick it out. It was for me. I also know I needed to be there for the time I was there. It was GOD HIMSELF who led me there and it was GOD HIMSELF who led me out.

For many, many others, leaving the LSM/LC was more complicated...more complex. The closer they were to the top, to Witness Lee, they either saw through him or they embraced him wholeheartedly. That's part of the reason I inquired about the 'promotions' in the LC...co-ordinators, service group leaders, deacons, ushers, elders, co-workers etc.. They didn't just jump into the LC and were given those titles. They 'earned' those titles somehow. They were trusted probably as they demonstrated their loyalty and their commitment.

In the 70's, I would hear John Ingalls was the closest co-worker to Brother Lee. Where Brother Lee was, there was John Ingalls. When I heard he left, I was shocked. No one ever would have imagined John & Lee going separate ways. Max on the other hand was shafted very early on. He was blamed for the debacle at Berkely and who knows what else. Some of it was true I'm sure and some of it not. But no matter, he ended up getting the bum deal..until the next wave of 'rebels' which came from the higher ups questioning Lee's doings.

Still, many continued to hold on to Hope...the Hope of Glory...the HOPE that there actually was a body of believers who stood in one accord with THE WORD of GOD. As time went on, it became clearer and clearer to many that the "in one accord' was about being in one accord in Lee's ministry. Not in Christ.

IF YOU WERE NEVER AN INSIDER, YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND what it was like to be there....no matter WHO YOU KNOW who was in it or is IN IT. You might think you have a handle because of what you know, what you've heard, what you read...but you were never there. Even I who was only there a short time, can only imagine how hard it was for many people to leave who were there for a much longer time than I ever was.

You may pride yourself in thinking you can walk out of controlling situations..walk away from controlling people but you certainly have your shortcomings and weaknesses. And those shortcomings and weaknesses CONTROL YOU, not always perhaps but at times. You are NOT EXEMPT from being manipulated or controlled. It could be something as simple as a candy bar that you can't say no to. Maybe candy bars are not your weakness but something is. And when it grabs hold of you, it's got you under its' control.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

countmeworthy you contradict yourself. You suggest that nobody outside the Lee church can understand the control involved and then you say in essence everyone has experienced control by somone/thing eg. candy bar thus making the experience a universal.

As a correction: I never implied or even remotely suggested that those in Lee's church would have an easy time of leaving. This forum is a clear demonstration of quite the opposite. But with your candy bar example you do bring up a possibility that others including myself have explored in another thread on this forum: addictive behavior. I do believe that many in Lee's church were in fact addicted to him and his ministry. But in coming out of addiction please note that none of the 12 steps blame anyone else i.e. the one with the addiction takes responsibility for their actions after admitting they have a problem in the first place.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by djohnson

His claim that he did not control anybody is valid. That people let themselves be controlled by him is another story altogether. And if the argument is taken further i.e. into the realm of involuntary mind control then we are taking about a cult aren't we?

As djohnson and most of us are quite aware, there was something that Witness Lee dubbed "The Vision of The Church". Lee even called it "a controlling vision" which was to guide and motivate just about every aspect of a Local Churcher's life. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE. This is how Lee controlled his followers. He didn't have to tell them where to move - the "vision" did. He didn't tell them who to marry - the "vision" did. He didn't have to tell them what to read and what not to read - the "vision" did.

But who controlled "the vision"? Witness Lee. Actually the vision was changed and updated by Lee many times over the past number of years. There were "flows" which came and went. The "New Way" was nothing more then just the final "flow" initiated and defined by Witness Lee. Since it was at the end of his life, of course it was the most important and most "God ordained" of them all. To this day this is the "flow" that controls most of what happens in the Local Church. Since Lee is dead and unable to initiate any new flow they are stuck. This is what "controls" them.

All this is a very refined and simplified answer to this issue of "control". There are many other intricate and involved issues, such as the matter of fear and addiction. These have been addressed and discussed at length over the past on these forums.

-