The Unique Move of God

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

You bring up an interesting misunderstanding. I was blown away by this vision before I ever heard of Witness Lee. He didn't need to convince me.

What vision are you speaking of Drake?

I know you are busy and all....but I for one am EXTREMELY interested in this "vision" that you were blown away by "before I ever heard of Witness Lee". This is NOT a "gotctha question" (unless you turn it into one). Please do not deprive us of this most important vision. I would like to know something about this "vision" you speak of. Surely it is very related to "The Unique Move of God".

The ball is now in your court my brother. You've never disappointed in the past...don't start now.
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What vision are you speaking of Drake?

I know you are busy and all....but I for one am EXTREMELY interested in this "vision" that you were blown away by "before I ever heard of Witness Lee". This is NOT a "gotctha question" (unless you turn it into one). Please do not deprive us of this most important vision. I would like to know something about this "vision" you speak of. Surely it is very related to "The Unique Move of God".

The ball is now in your court my brother. You've never disappointed in the past...don't start now.
-

UntoHim, I was going to respond to your note this weekend with a comprehensive answer and I had been before the Lord since you asked it.

But i am sensing some sarcasm and perhaps a taste of badgering? Under those circumstances I am not inclined to share something that is deeply personal and a treasure to me in my spiritual life. Vision is not a doctrine, rather, it is a visitation, at least it was to me.

Still, I will share an abbreviated version of the vision that captured me and how it came about. It is personal and may hold no real interest to you or others.

Starting here.... I held leadership roles in a denomination and had a life changing experience there. Then in His care and shepherding and arrangements He enlightenment me concerning the Church as the local expression of His Body and the need for the unity of the believers in a city. Then later, He showed me the position of the church universal seated with Christ in the heavenlies. I do not mean I only read it and decided it was right, I saw it as real as if I had looked at the moon. I further understood that it was the only way to defeat God's enemy. I was captured by this visitation/vision of the universal Body and the Body local on earth.

Still had not heard the name Witness Lee.

Then I started to attend some meetings of the local church but just part time. Yet, here I began to experience life and care and shepherding in the Body and I started to see the Body life could be experienced in a real and living way in my daily life. I then understood the meaning, significance, and profoundness of grace upon grace. For the better part of a year I met with the local churches part time as I was very engaged in the denomination i was a leader in. With one foot in each world I was able to compare firsthand the difference.

Still had not heard the name Witness Lee.

Then I was going to be in a certain city for personal reasons and the elder mentioned I might like to attend a conference being held at that time in that city. He said, Brother Witness Lee would be speaking. I said "who is that?" He said, a coworker of Watchman Nee. I knew of Watchman Nee. So at that conference I saw the Spirit poured out on the Body and the function of "each one has" that facilitated the building up. It became apparent to me that God chooses the weak, the imperfect, and the simple to accomplish the building of the Body. Old and young, rich and poor, university teachers and students, electricians and plumbers, different races, many people from all walks of human life came together and did what normally only pastors and teachers did. I also had a few minutes of fellowship with Brother Lee face to face and found him to be gracious, caring, and normal.

That was the last piece of the mosaic of the vision of the Body of Christ. At that point I was "turned and burned" . You know the phrase well I am certain. That was over 40 years ago and the vision has kept me ever since.

In summary, It was a 4 fold vision of the Body the Lord revealed to me in a variety of ways over a few years. First, through a minister I came to understand the Body is local and the need for unity in the Body in a city. Though a leader in a denomiation i knew there was something more. Second, the Body is universal and here I received a personal and intimate visitation from the Lord and from that saw the Body universal. Third, I experienced the Body Christ and care and shepherding in my daily life. Fourth, i saw the pouring out of the Spirit and realized the primary purpose was to bring in the function for building the Body and to defaet God's enemy. Only near the end of this last part did I met Brother Lee.

A vision of the Body local, universal, personal, and functional. By the time I began to read and listen to Brother Lee's ministry i needed no convincing. It just affirmed the vision that Lord had already revealed to me.

Thanks for listening.

Drake

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

In summary, It was a 4 fold vision of the Body the Lord revealed to me in a variety of ways over a few years. First, through a minister I came to understand the Body is local and the need for unity in the Body in a city. Though a leader in a denomiation i knew there was something more. Second, the Body is universal and here I received a personal and intimate visitation from the Lord and from that saw the Body universal. Third, I experienced the Body Christ and care and shepherding in my daily life. Fourth, i saw the pouring out of the Spirit and realized the primary purpose was to bring in the function for building the Body and to defaet God's enemy. Only near the end of this last part did I met Brother Lee.

Drake,

Thank you for sharing. There isn't anything above that I disagree with.

The issue with me and the LCM has never been much about the general vision. It has always been about how that vision is interpreted and turned into attitudes and practices.

This really comes into play in the "practical unity" part of your vision. It seems to me the LCM version of unity is set up in such a way so that only the LCM can fulfill it. So, ironically, their "unity" became a kind of sectarianism. This is proven by the fact that there are a lot of groups that meet as the church in the city but which have no association with the LSM. And in every case as far as I know the LCM churches disregard them and do not attempt to fellowship with them.

The LCM has defined "names" and "locality" as the central determiners of whether a group observes proper unity. But the Bible never makes that clear. However, the Bible does make clear that overly insisting on one minister or ministry can and does result in sectarianism (1 Cor 3). Yet, the LCM acts oblivious to this, and thus attempts to enforce all the little details Witness Lee/LSM taught, which is the root of all the dysfunction the group has spread.

There is nothing wrong with unity as a general concept. Where the LCM has gone wrong is to insist unity must be expressed according to specific proprietary details--which in fact is not unity but conformity. In the meantime, they discount all other expressions of unity as inadequate.

I simply do not see how this will ever result in more unity or building, the very thing you claim to want. So you must be hoping everyone eventually joins the LCM. But that isn't going to happen. Sixty years of track record has made that clear.

The reason people aren't joining the LCM is not because of the general vision you shared. It's because of the way that general vision has been lost and distorted in the translation into actual attitudes and practices.

[Cal]

So, to summarize:

LCM methods are not designed to embrace true generality, since the LCM insists on too many proprietary details in belief and practice which map back to Witness Lee and his personal preferences.

Therefore, the LCM is not interested in general unity among Christians, they are interested in a "unity" which conforms to their particular beliefs, practices, structure, view and leadership--that is, conformity.

Therefore, the LCM is really only interested in all Christians joining them.

Therefore, since the above is never going to come close to happening, the LCM is chasing a vain pursuit.

Therefore, they content themselves with the belief that they are the only ones doing things right, and categorically ignore or discount everything God is doing outside their walls, which is the vast majority of what God is doing. They know this in their hearts, but cannot reconcile it with their "vision." However, rather than opening to God for more clarity, they simply stay the course because questioning Witness Lee is not an option.

Therefore, they are living in denial. Unfortunately, this mindset not only hurts them, it potentially hurts everyone they come in contact with.

Therefore, they should repent.

[Drake]

What does the acronym "LCM" stand for?

[UntoHim]

Local Church Movement.

Different people use different acronyms. Sometimes it gets confusing to me, and I've been reading these forums for many years. I've thought about trying to encourage some conformity, but I pretty much gave up on that.
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[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

But i am sensing some sarcasm and perhaps a taste of badgering?

My friend I have neither the time nor the heart to be badgering anybody. Sorry if you got that impression. If I sound sarcastic at times, it’s only because of my 40+ years of personal experience and close observation of the persons, places and things that are discussed here on our little popcorn stand. I’m naturally inclined to sarcasm…God is not through with me yet…as the bumper sticker says.

Under those circumstances I am not inclined to share something that is deeply personal and a treasure to me in my spiritual life. Vision is not a doctrine, rather, it is a visitation, at least it was to me. Still, I will share an abbreviated version of the vision that captured me and how it came about. It is personal and may hold no real interest to you or others.

Speaking for myself, anything to do with a genuine vision and/or visitation from God is extremely interesting and important to me. No sarcasm here bro. When God talks I listen…whether it be through a bolt of lightning….or through another member of the Body of Christ. The key is – is it genuine. Your little testimony here has me convinced that your vision/visitation is absolutely genuine. I know this for a fact because I have longed for these things my entire Christian life. Some things were fulfilled in the ministry of Witness Lee and in the Local Churches, some were not. Some have been fulfilled at other places. Some have not. I am convinced that some more will be fulfilled before I breath my last…some will not. Such are the life and times of a sojourner whose citizenship is in heaven, and whose hopes and desires will never be totally fulfilled here on earth.

Then I started to attend some meetings of the local church but just part time. Yet, here I began to experience life and care and shepherding in the Body and I started to see the Body life could be experienced in a real and living way in my daily life. I then understood the meaning, significance, and profoundness of grace upon grace. For the better part of a year I met with the local churches part time as I was very engaged in the denomination i was a leader in. With one foot in each world I was able to compare firsthand the difference.
Still had not heard the name Witness Lee.

Drake, this is where your testimony comes off the rails. Are you actually telling us that you attended meetings of the Local Church (albeit “just part time”) for about a year and never heard the name Witness Lee? Surely this is a typo. Lee’s name is everywhere you look. Local Church meetings are based on the spoken ministry of Witness Lee. The footnotes in the Recovery Version…did you think those were from John MacArthur? I think in a sincere, but misguided, attempt to give our readers the impression that Lee had nothing to do with your original visions and visitations, and Lee’s ministry simply confirmed them, you misspoke in a major way. Maybe you would care to take a mulligan on this one?
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Local Church Movement.

Different people use different acronyms. Sometimes it gets confusing to me, and I've been reading these forums for many years. I've thought about trying to encourage some conformity, but I pretty much gave up on that.
-

Ok. Thanks.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

That was the last piece of the mosaic of the vision of the Body of Christ. At that point I was "turned and burned" . You know the phrase well I am certain. That was over 40 years ago and the vision has kept me ever since.
.
.
A vision of the Body local, universal, personal, and functional. By the time I began to read and listen to Brother Lee's ministry i needed no convincing. It just affirmed the vision that Lord had already revealed to me.

Drake, I respect your vision. Yet, after 40 some years, in your own view, how much closer is the Lord's Recovery to that vision?

I don't know about you, but my own personal feeling is that it is getting less local (the "One Ministry" outweighing the locality); not getting universal (widening of the gap between the Lord's Recovery and Christianity plus divisions from within); less personal ("corporate experience" outweighing the personal); and functioning more mechanically than organically (jumping to "answers" in the RcV footnotes and ministry messages instead of going through the necessary personal exploration and meditation to get the truth).

In the prophesying meeting just passed, when I watched the brothers and sisters speak one-by-one, I was glad that they have the heart to pursue God's truth. But I know it would be many many times better if they can break the invisible boundry of repeating again and again the minstry's messages and instead share their true personal experience of Christ and their direct findings (or even questions) from studying God's words (i.e. The Bible).

This is kind of like a butterfly trapped in a glass house. May be it can see the great vision of the wonderful world outside the glass house. Day by day, it hits into the invisible glass wall and cannot reach any closer to the great light it sees. May be the flowers grown by man inside the glass house can well sustain its life, but it will never enjoy the full riches in the wonderful nature created by God unless it starts to seek for the right way to reach out to what it sees.

I would also like to share with you the final passage from C.S.Lewis' "Surprised By Joy: The Shape of My Early Life":

But I now know that the experience, considered as a state of my own mind, had never had the kind of importance I once gave it. It was valuable only as a pointer to something other and outer. While that other was in doubt, the pointer naturally loomed large in my thoughts. When we are lost in the woods the sight of a signpost is a great matter. He who first sees it cries “Look!” The whole party gathers round and stares. But when we have found the road and are passing signposts every few miles, we shall not stop and stare. They will encourage us and we shall be grateful to the authority that set them up. But we shall not stop and stare, or not much; not on this road, though their pillars are of silver and their lettering of gold. “We would be at Jerusalem.”

May be we have stopped and stared for too long.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by A little brother

In the prophesying meeting just passed, when I watched the brothers and sisters speak one-by-one, I was glad that they have the heart to pursue God's truth. But I know it would be many many times better if they can break the invisible boundry of repeating again and again the minstry's messages and instead share their true personal experience of Christ and their direct findings (or even questions) from studying God's words (i.e. The Bible).

Amen! I share your thoughts.
I wonder if anyone has considered factors from going away from testimonies according to one's daily walk with the Lord to prophesying according to a ministry?

[Cal]

Concerning the general vision of the LCM. Universal->Local->Personal->Building up. These are good ideas which are much more widespread in current Christianity that Drake knows. (Drake talked about the Baptist Church, but I doubt he has been in one for decades.

Mutuality and the reality of the Body of Christ building itself up are mainstream concepts now. They just aren't taught using the same terminology that the LCM uses.

But, regardless, if the LCM really wanted to enlighten poor Christianity all they would have to do is repackage good, general LCM teachings in a more modern, accessible format, instead of the stiff, turgid prose and dry presentation they tend to use. I believe there would be some benefit there.

Alas, the LCM is really not interested in helping anyone but themselves. They really don't want to feed the sheep; they want to control the flock. They don't want to cast their bread upon the waters; they want to be the only bakery in town.

For example, why doesn't the LCM release videos of Witness Lee teaching in trainings and conferences onto the Internet? Why are those kept under wraps? What are they afraid of? What could be more genuine an expression of his ministry than him speaking? Yet, as great as they think he was, they seem reluctant to show him to the rest of the world. That's weird.

The reason is they want to control the message. They don't want their stuff to spread into Christianity because here's what will happen if they do: The best and good stuff will be received and the junk will be rejected. Once that happens the only unique thing the LCM will have to offer is the junk that the rest of the Body rejected.

They really are just all about themselves.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

For example, why doesn't the LCM release videos of Witness Lee teaching in trainings and conferences onto the Internet? Why are those kept under wraps? What are they afraid of? What could be more genuine an expression of his ministry than him speaking? Yet, as great as they think he was, they seem reluctant to show him to the rest of the world. That's weird.

Why it's not released? Probably for the same reason that Zondervan does not give out free NIV bibles? I mean, copyright applies to most things, and also trainings that cost money. I don't know of many ministries or churches that release everything for free. The churches I used to go to charged about $5 for a CD or tape of the pastor's sermons.

But if you youtube living stream ministries there is plenty of material online there. Lots of videos of Lee, Ron speaking and others. 62000 results.

Most books are readable for free from living stream website.

You can't really claim that the message is controlled if they are providing free access to most books (and the most controversial ones).

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Why it's not released? Probably for the same reason that Zondervan does not give out free NIV bibles? I mean, copyright applies to most things, and also trainings that cost money. I don't know of many ministries or churches that release everything for free. The churches I used to go to charged about $5 for a CD or tape of the pastor's sermons.

I agree with you that LSM website is more open and more functional than any other publisher that I am aware of. With any other publisher they will let you read a few pages, with LSM you can access every publication and every page of that publication.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You can't really claim that the message is controlled if they are providing free access to most books (and the most controversial ones).

I was talking about Lee videos, not books. There are no videos of Witness Lee which are put out by LSM. The few that are out there were leaked by individuals. Most are bad quality.

Obviously LSM is hesitant to let the public see Witness Lee in action and unfiltered.

And your profit motive point doesn't apply. LSM is making no income from Lee videos now. So what do they have to lose?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

...For example, why doesn't the LCM release videos of Witness Lee teaching in trainings and conferences onto the Internet? Why are those kept under wraps? What are they afraid of? What could be more genuine an expression of his ministry than him speaking? Yet, as great as they think he was, they seem reluctant to show him to the rest of the world. That's weird.

The reason is they want to control the message. They don't want their stuff to spread into Christianity because here's what will happen if they do: The best and good stuff will be received and the junk will be rejected. Once that happens the only unique thing the LCM will have to offer is the junk that the rest of the Body rejected.

They really are just all about themselves.

Igzy,

I believe there are at least 2 more reasons why they don't release the video messages:

1) The messages have been edited, massaged, polished, etc., ... to the extent that they do not resemble the original spoken message. Did you ever look up something in the printed message you KNOW you heard him say only to find that IT WASN'T THERE? Have you compared versions of the same book, only to discover that even the books they are reprinting aren't the same?

2) I remember listening to Lee on video in the local video trainings. It was the most boring thing I ever tried to sit through. Night after night...he was just sitting there...droning on and on. Buzzzzzzzzz. No energy. It seemed that he had lost interest in what he was doing and was even bored with himself. It was awful. My guess they don't want to embarrass themselves by promoting this version of the MOTA.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Drake, I respect your vision. Yet, after 40 some years, in your own view, how much closer is the Lord's Recovery to that vision?

I don't know about you, but my own personal feeling is that it is
* getting less local (the "One Ministry" outweighing the locality);
* not getting universal (widening of the gap between the Lord's Recovery and Christianity plus divisions from within);
* less personal ("corporate experience" outweighing the personal);
* and functioning more mechanically than organically (jumping to "answers" in the RcV footnotes and ministry messages instead of going through the necessary personal exploration and meditation to get the truth).

ALB, this is an important point. For all the grandiose claims Lee made, where is the fruit? You have provided an excellent list of the fruit of WL's "ministry" above (which I edited into bullet points, I hope that's OK).

The requirements for speaking in God's name are high, to say the least. Deut. 18 talks about the prophet who presumes to speak what God has not spoken. How does one know the source, whether it be God or man...a false prophet? If the prophesy comes to pass, it was spoken by God. In Deut. 13 the same topic is covered with the stipulation that the prophesy does not lead the people to serve other Gods.

Has Witness Lee's "vision/ministry" come to pass? How does Witness Lee measure up to the standard for only speaking what God speaks? Does Lee's ministry point others to God or to Lee?

I think the answers to these questions have been well established. Then there's your question: "Yet, after 40 some years, in your own view, how much closer is the Lord's Recovery to that vision?"

The "vision" of Martin Luther has withstood the test of time. Justification by faith was "uncovered" because it was locked away in a language that few understood. Luther worked much of his life to translate the Bible into a language that was understood, then worked to set the translated Bible to press, making it available to the people. Christianity has progressed 500 years on this simple fact which was "uncovered" by Luther: Rom. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Justification by faith withstood the test of time because it was spoken by God...not Luther.

Your list of the fruit of Witness Lee's "vision", after 40 years, is a good one.

Nell