The Unique Move of God

[Drake]

A little brother)"Ch 13, The Practice of the Church Life according to the God-ordained Way: "Although those in Christianity preach Christ and teach people concerning Christ, they do so in a very shallow way. They have the term church, but they do not have the reality of the Body of Christ. "

And yet it is true.

Let's examine the largest denomination in the USA, the American Baptist Church.

We all would agree that they teach the Lordship of Christ and eternal salvation through His work on the cross. They also follow His command to baptize converts. Billy Graham, clearly a gift to the Body, an Evangelist, is the best representation of this group. I was "raised" Baptist and my grandfather was an ordained Baptist minister. Most of my family are of this persuasion and many of them are some of the best people you will ever meet anywhere. They love God, given to hospitality, generous, and they hold the conviction of their beliefs in the Bible. (There are a few rascals but we will leave that discussion another time). They also host the the best pot lucks on the planet.

But concerning Christ, where will you find the teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ? Let's give credit where credit is due. They teach Christ the Head, His Lordship, His salvation yet, they do not teach Christ the Body, its building up, nor are they organized to allow the members of the Body to function in mutual building. Therefore, how can they have the reality of the Body of Christ? In this aspect, they are shallow in their teaching of Christ. Specifically, Christ the Body. That was the context of the reference you cited. (You should have explained that when you quoted it to be accurate in your critique.)

Drake

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

You bring up an interesting misunderstanding. I was blown away by this vision before I ever heard of Witness Lee. He didn't need to convince me.

What vision are you speaking of Drake?
-

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

A little brother)"Ch 13, The Practice of the Church Life according to the God-ordained Way: "Although those in Christianity preach Christ and teach people concerning Christ, they do so in a very shallow way. They have the term church, but they do not have the reality of the Body of Christ. "

And yet it is true.

Let's examine the largest denomination in the USA, the American Baptist Church.

We all would agree that they teach the Lordship of Christ and eternal salvation through His work on the cross. They also follow His command to baptize converts. Billy Graham, clearly a gift to the Body, an Evangelist, is the best representation of this group. I was "raised" Baptist and my grandfather was an ordained Baptist minister. Most of my family are of this persuasion and many of them are some of the best people you will ever meet anywhere. They love God, given to hospitality, generous, and they hold the conviction of their beliefs in the Bible. (There are a few rascals but we will leave that discussion another time). They also host the the best pot lucks on the planet.

But concerning Christ, where will you find the teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ? Let's give credit where credit is due. They teach Christ the Head, His Lordship, His salvation yet, they do not teach Christ the Body, its building up, nor are they organized to allow the members of the Body to function in mutual building. Therefore, how can they have the reality of the Body of Christ? In this aspect, they are shallow in their teaching of Christ. Specifically, Christ the Body. That was the context of the reference you cited. (You should have explained that when you quoted it to be accurate in your critique.)

Drake

So now you being in the Lord's Recovery think it is better than believers not in the Lord's Recovery? I thought you said you couldn't think of a single one out of thousands.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by A little brother

So now you being in the Lord's Recovery think it is better than believers not in the Lord's Recovery? I thought you said you couldn't think of a single one out of thousands.

No. I think the way of the Lords Recovery is better because it has a better chance of building the Body of Christ. I do not believe the way of the denominations can practically accomplish that mission.

Has nothing to do with " better than believers".

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Drake

No. I think the way of the Lords Recovery is better because it has a better chance of building the Body of Christ. Has nothing to do with " better than believers".

WL said they do not have and you said they can't have the reality of the Body of Christ, and by saying so, implied the believers in the Lord's Recovery can. Doesn't that mean believers in Lord's Recovery are better?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by A little brother

WL said they do not have and you said they can't have the reality of the Body of Christ, and by saying so, implied the believers in the Lord's Recovery can. Doesn't that mean believers in Lord's Recovery are better?

No. I also believe that the American way of democracy is better than other ways of government. That does not mean that Americans are better than others.

To be precise, I said the way of the Lords Recovery has a better chance of being able to build the Body of Christ......but there is no guarantee. We just need to be faithful to what the Lord has shown us.

By analogy, the 6M Jews who became members of the nation of Israel, living in the good land, building homes, keeping rifles handy, growing crops, having babies, have a much better chance of accomplishing the mission of the Israel than 17M Jews living in New York or other places. That does not mean that the 6M Jews are better than other Jews. That of course is a modern day account of what happened in the Old Testament. History repeats itself.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

To be precise, I said the way of the Lords Recovery has a better chance of being able to build the Body of Christ......but there is no guarantee. We just need to be faithful to what the Lord has shown us.

Israel also had a "better chance" of building the kingdom of God on earth. They had the Patriarchs, the Law, the Covenants, the Temple with His glory, the Priesthood, the Promises of God, the chosen Promised Land, etc., yet they were hardened, disobedient, and unbelieving.

Those in the Recovery claim to have so much from God -- unique spiritual blessings which they claim others do not possess. They boast of the proper church stand, the oneness of the body, and all the riches of the Word recovered by Nee and Lee. Yet, like Israel and Laodicea, they have become proud, blind, lukewarm, naked and arrogant. They sue and quarantine the prophets God sends to them. They remain a closed, insular, stagnant sect, much like the Exclusive Brethren they are modeled after, and are sheltered by concrete reinforced strongholds which neither God nor man can penetrate.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

To be precise, I said the way of the Lords Recovery has a better chance of being able to build the Body of Christ......but there is no guarantee. We just need to be faithful to what the Lord has shown us.

Might I suggest taking some time check if the Lord actually showed you this. How much have you actually prayed asking what God wants and how he wants to do it?

If I recall when I was in the LCM I thought God showed me a lot of things I never bothered to pray about. I recall just accepting everything without question, because questioning Witness Lee was sold as the root of all evil.

Did I ever tell you about the LCM guy I once asked to pray for six weeks about whether his LCM views were accurate? Seems like a reasonable and harmless suggestion, right? How could that go wrong?

Yep... you guessed it... he said he didn't need to pray.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

You bring up an interesting misunderstanding. I was blown away by this vision before I ever heard of Witness Lee. He didn't need to convince me.

What vision are you speaking of Drake?

I know you are busy and all....but I for one am EXTREMELY interested in this "vision" that you were blown away by "before I ever heard of Witness Lee". This is NOT a "gotctha question" (unless you turn it into one). Please do not deprive us of this most important vision. I would like to know something about this "vision" you speak of. Surely it is very related to "The Unique Move of God".

The ball is now in your court my brother. You've never disappointed in the past...don't start now.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

But concerning Christ, where will you find the teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ? Let's give credit where credit is due. They teach Christ the Head, His Lordship, His salvation yet, they do not teach Christ the Body, its building up, nor are they organized to allow the members of the Body to function in mutual building. Therefore, how can they have the reality of the Body of Christ? In this aspect, they are shallow in their teaching of Christ. Specifically, Christ the Body. That was the context of the reference you cited. (You should have explained that when you quoted it to be accurate in your critique.)

Drake

Drake, I lived thru the quarantines a decade ago (which discussion, btw, you dodge every chance you get) and watched LSM carry out its so-called "teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ." Let's cut through the rhetoric, and talk for a minute about how this "teaching and practice" really works.

Since WL has passed on, TLR now has a few Blended MOTA's (BP, RK, MC, etc.) sitting in their nice LaPalma offices deciding who and what is good for the "building up." Then they plot their perfect "body." They decide a number of the internal organs, bones, muscles, brain parts, and extremities in the body of Christ in the GLA are no longer necessary. They hold a public Kangaroo Court in Whistler to plan out their "surgeries." They publish lengthy and extensive articles in "approved" medical journals, like afaithfulworddotcom. They send in numerous legal operatives from DCP into the "Recovery" room to patch up the remaining pieces of their "body," filing lawsuits to recoup their exorbitant expenses. What's left is kept on the life support system of HWFMRs. Then a "finger" from the GLA comes to your "Feast" in Anaheim, and the crowd erupts with joy over the one finger who survived your mutilations.

Next you move on to Brazil for more "surgery." What did Apostle Paul say? "Beware of the dogs, Beware of the evil workers, Beware of the concision."

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Drake, I lived thru the quarantines a decade ago (which discussion, btw, you dodge every chance you get) and watched LSM carry out its so-called "teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ." Let's cut through the rhetoric, and talk for a minute about how this "teaching and practice" really works.

Since WL has passed on, TLR now has a few Blended MOTA's (BP, RK, MC, etc.) sitting in their nice LaPalma offices deciding who and what is good for the "building up." Then they plot their perfect "body." They decide a number of the internal organs, bones, muscles, brain parts, and extremities in the body of Christ in the GLA are no longer necessary. They hold a public Kangaroo Court in Whistler to plan out their "surgeries." They publish lengthy and extensive articles in "approved" medical journals, like afaithfulworddotcom. They send in numerous legal operatives from DCP into the "Recovery" room to patch up the remaining pieces of their "body," filing lawsuits to recoup their exorbitant expenses. What's left is kept on the life support system of HWFMRs. Then a "finger" from the GLA comes to your "Feast" in Anaheim, and the crowd erupts with joy over the one finger who survived your mutilations.

Next you move on to Brazil for more "surgery." What did Apostle Paul say? "Beware of the dogs, Beware of the evil workers, Beware of the concision."

Ohio,

And there's what Jesus said! In Matt. 16:18 he said "I will build my church."

Really? Does he really mean that? Or, does he needs help? Is he up to the task? After all, he is GOD. Do you think Jesus secretly uses the "LSM Teaching and Practice Administrators Guide to Church Building"?

And what do you think Jesus meant in Matthew 18:6 when he said "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

I've noticed that "obedience" is a big thing in the Bible. Do you think it would help if we obeyed God rather than men with millstones around their necks?

I know you know the answers to my questions.

Nell

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

But concerning Christ, where will you find the teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ? Let's give credit where credit is due. They teach Christ the Head, His Lordship, His salvation yet, they do not teach Christ the Body, its building up, nor are they organized to allow the members of the Body to function in mutual building. Therefore, how can they have the reality of the Body of Christ? In this aspect, they are shallow in their teaching of Christ. Specifically, Christ the Body.

Again you don't know what you are talking about. And again you are engaging in a circular argument. You are claiming that the only way to have the building of the Body of Christ is to have your proprietary teaching about it.

In the first place, the building of the Body is taught in churches today, it's just not taught in the terms you prefer. But the essence and reality of the idea is there. Churches teach community, fellowship, small groups, mutual support, praying together, serving together, all in the Spirit. So if they practice those things the Body is going to get built and I've seen it built that way.

You don't need to have a PhD in Witness Lee's theology to have the building of the Body of Christ. That's like saying you need to have PhD in the inner life to experience it. And some of the most spiritual people ever never heard of most of the things Lee taught about the inner life. And in fact in my experience much of the things he taught both about life and building just get in the way, because they produce a mindset like yours which believes all these WL ducks need to be a row for life and building to happen, which is a prescription for mistaking following WL for actually having them, i.e. mistaking knowledge for reality.

For my money his teaching hasn't produced that much building anyway. Seems to have built a fringe sect. I like the building I see elsewhere better, thanks very much.

[Drake]

Igzy) "Also you are the one who implied that people in denominations have a "sectarian spirit," But then when I said they generally don't, you said I could not know that. But how could you know? Because the same limitation would apply to you. How can you know there is a "sectarian spirit" if I can't know there isn't?"

Igzy,

First, I see no reason to engage in rock fetches. For instance, you want to make this about people as if that were the point. It is not and seldom is. You recast the arguments in terms of people and personalities and you also make it personal with me. I understand that my very presence on this forum annoys you but it is best to address my argument and refrain from suggesting I am lying if you want to discuss a topic and especially if you want to dive into a topic more thoroughly. However, as soon as you began crafting ad hominem arguments like "liar, liar, pants on fire" I lose interest pretty quickly. You may think that is avoiding the argument but my view is that is avoiding an irrelevant argument.

Now, how can I know that a sectarian spirit is operating in the church? Simple, open the phone book! You don't need a PHD for that either.

And it is a fallacy of argumentation on your part because you cannot possibly know what the majority of christians are thinking. And I don't claim to know what the majority of christians are thinking either. I just look at the obvious ... thousands of denominations and surmise that a sectarian spirit must be operating in the church.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Now, how can I know that a sectarian spirit is operating in the church? Simple, open the phone book! You don't need a PHD for that either.

That's right Drake, but like the scribes and lawyers of Jesus' day, a PHD may keep you from seeing the obvious right in front of you.

How do I know that a sectarian spirit is operating in the local church? I watched their behaviors, attitudes, teachings, and practices for the past 40 years. I have never seen such vicious, political rancor as that which was exhibited by leaders in Anaheim.

They condemn others for exactly the same things they do. That's why you avoid all questions about your own sordid history, and keep your weapons aimed at others.

[Cal]

First, I see no reason to engage in rock fetches. For instance, you want to make this about people as if that were the point. It is not and seldom is. You recast the arguments in terms of people and personalities and you also make it personal with me.

I didn't make it personal. I just asked you to defend your point of view with better arguments. Did you ever think that the reason people don't go for the LCM is not because of their lack of purity but because of a lack of good arguments for it?

Now, how can I know that a sectarian spirit is operating in the church? Simple, open the phone book!

Again, you have defined this situation as sectarian. But it is not necessarily so. That's what I mean by a circular argument.

Sectarianism is not people meeting in multiple places and having multiple names. Sectarianism is some people saying that everyone should be like them and refusing to respect others' rights to believe and meet as they see fit as per Romans 12.

Sectarianism is not people living in different houses and having different names. Sectarianism is any of those families saying they are the only valid family.

I've never seen a time in my life when so many different kinds of Christians can come together and meet together and not make issues about secondary doctrines. That is the way I see the situation going more and more these days. And guess what? I see the hand of God in it too. Why can't you be happy about that?

And it is a fallacy of argumentation on your part because you cannot possibly know what the majority of christians are thinking.

If you can claim sectarianism (as defined by you admittedly) exists simply by a look in the phone book (you are showing your age there BTW ), then I can certainly make an assessment about non-sectarianism by my more varied, direct and personal observations. I read. I observe. I visit other churches. I talk to many other Christians. I think my assessment of things is reliable enough.

The fact is, Drake, we are never going to see a situation where all or even a majority of Christians in cities come under one group of elders wielding the kind of control the LCM does. It just isn't going to happen. (And personally I don't think that is what God expects or even wants.) So what are you going to do? Continue to find fault with them? Continue to see the glass half-empty. I just don't see the point of that. It's making the good the enemy of the (in your opinion) best.

And you hurt people by sending the message that if they aren't in the LCM they are somehow not right with God. You need to drop that. That's always been my point.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Drake

They have the term church, but they do not have the reality of the Body of Christ.

Who does? I'm sure there may be assemblies out there that may have a better grasp than most. Generally speaking there are no fellowship of churches who can back the claim of "having the reality of the Body of Christ".

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Terry

Who does? I'm sure there may be assemblies out there that may have a better grasp than most. Generally speaking there are no fellowship of churches who can back the claim of "having the reality of the Body of Christ".

You are in essence saying that no fellowships have the reality of Christ?