The Unique Move of God

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

I don't think I have actually.

But if they did, so what?

Why shouldn't every christian have the realization that they are the church in the city where they live and in so doing drop the things that divide them and declare to the world and the principalities and powers that they choose the oneness found only in Christ....... why not?

That is a good thing to Amen.

Drake

I think this is a very difficult position to be in. I have been in congregations where my children were taught that unbelievers go to hell. I believe the Bible is far more nuanced than that and do not appreciate that teaching. But it isn't the pastor teaching it from the pulpit, it is a Sunday school teacher.

I don't think I have ever been in fellowship with Christians where everyone agreed with everyone or where everyone fully comprehended the nuances and scriptural basis for the teachings.

What makes the LRC different from many other meetings is that any member can stand up and speak. We have all been in meetings where someone spoke something that was off the wall.

So then where do you draw the line?

The other issue I have with this is that most Christians that I have met do not make oneness a big issue like it is in the LRC. Redemption, forgiveness, salvation, these are generally the major topics that they focus on. So then, is it a positive thing that those in the LRC focus on the oneness of the Body? I think we all have to agree it is, otherwise why are you even discussing this on this thread? Clearly if you are on this thread you think the oneness is a big issue.

What I consider are the big issues with this teaching --

1. It denies the Lord who bought us with His blood. Any suggestion that the name of your meeting hall is a factor in the oneness is a denial of the work that Jesus did on the cross. That blood is the real "ground of oneness".

and

2. I see this doctrine as a way to create a monopoly, claim that you are the MOTA, and make merchandise of the saints. Regardless of how Dr a Ke understands this doctrine, the facts are clear. It is the basis for the claim that WN was the MOTA. It is the basis for saying WL took the mantle from WN. And, it is the basis for creating the LRC sect and giving WL a monopoly which he in turned used to make merchandise of the saints.

[Ohio]

This wikipedia article "Local Church Controversies" delineates the LC positions ...

Watchman Nee taught that the universal church, the Body of Christ, is properly expressed in local churches, that is, local assemblies consisting of all believers in their respective localities. His most comprehensive exposition of this principle can be found in The Normal Christian Church Life, although there are significant treatments of the subject in other books as well. This teaching is based on the New Testament examples of the church in Jerusalem (Acts 8:1), the church in Antioch (Acts 13:1), the church in Corinth (1 Cor. 1:2), the seven churches in seven cities in Asia (Rev. 1:11), etc. Watchman Nee and his co-workers, including Witness Lee, established local churches throughout China according to this principle.

Witness Lee continued to follow and expound this principle in his work and ministry. He pointed out that in Acts 14:23 Paul and his co-workers appointed elders in every church upon their return to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, while in Titus 1:5, Paul charged his co-worker to appoint elders in every city. This, Lee said, showed that the elders in the church equaled the elders in the city, meaning that the boundary of the church was the city. Furthermore, he noted that even though there were thousands of believers in Jerusalem, the church there was referred to in the singular and there was only one group of elders in the church.

Witness Lee was often critical of the organized system of Christianity, saying that it had deviated from the biblical revelation. He identified three inherent deficiencies in this system:

• There are many substitutes for the living person of Christ;
• The clergy/laity system nullifies the proper function of the believers; and
• The divided state of the denominational/free group system is contrary to biblical injunctions to keep the oneness of the Body of Christ.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This wikipedia article "Local Church Controversies" delineates the LC positions ...

This, Lee said, showed that the elders in the church equaled the elders in the city, meaning that the boundary of the church was the city. Furthermore, he noted that even though there were thousands of believers in Jerusalem, the church there was referred to in the singular and there was only one group of elders in the church.

So I wonder if Drake agrees with this? Are the elders selected by Witness Lee in the church in Houston the only genuine elders in Houston?

Witness Lee was often critical of the organized system of Christianity, saying that it had deviated from the biblical revelation. He identified three inherent deficiencies in this system:
There are many substitutes for the living person of Christ;
The clergy/laity system nullifies the proper function of the believers; and
The divided state of the denominational/free group system is contrary to biblical injunctions to keep the oneness of the Body of Christ.

I feel that these criticisms of Witness Lee towards others is equally applicable to him.

1. Substitutes for the living person of Christ. -- MOTA and Ground of the Church are two examples. Jesus is the minister of the age. To say that Watchman Nee or Witness Lee is equals a substitute for the Living person of Christ. Likewise it is the living person of Christ that is the bond of peace that keeps the oneness, not WL's doctrine of the ground of the church.

2. Nullification of the proper function of the believers. -- We watched that as "living testimonies" were converted into parroting footnotes and WL's ministry.

3. The divided state of denominational system is never so clear as in the Lord's Recovery Church. It is either stated plainly or else implied that taking the Lord's table in any other Christian fellowship is akin to a sin that could kill you.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So I wonder if Drake agrees with this? Are the elders selected by Witness Lee in the church in Houston the only genuine elders in Houston?

Nullification of the proper function of the believers. -- We watched that as "living testimonies" were converted into parroting footnotes and WL's ministry.

The divided state of denominational system is never so clear as in the Lord's Recovery Church. It is either stated plainly or else implied that taking the Lord's table in any other Christian fellowship is akin to a sin that could kill you.

ZNP, you caught these points too. Appointment of elders in the local churches is not very transparent nor is there character guidelines for prospective elders.
It seems one basis is loyalty to Living Stream Ministry. You could be prone to be quick-tempered or married multiple times and that's okay. Truth or myth, one's families financial contribution to Living Stream could be a contributing factor also. Point is loyalty bears more weight than ones character and disposition.
I would agree ZNP. Prophesying according to Holy Word for Morning Revival and other ministry publications has nullified the body's function. What if you get light from reading Proverbs or James and have something to share? Or a nugget from a completely unrelated Christian writer such as Charles Spurgeon or RC Sproul?
The matter about the table is a subtle one. There's no words, but the contradicting actions illustrate division. Taking the table is no longer a matter of 1 Corinthians 11:27-29, but rather who are you taking the table with. If it's a denomination or a non-denominational church, abstaining from taking the table is the accepted practice. If it's another LSM-receiving local church you're visiting, it's okay to take the table.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Appointment of elders in the local churches is not very transparent nor is there character guidelines for prospective elders.

I like what James says about "if you are sick call for the elders". A true elder has prayed earnestly for the church to be healed, just like Elijah.

17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

I think all of us have “like passions with Elijah”. We would like to pray that God’s fire would fall from heaven, all of God’s people would fall on their face and say “He is God” and all the false prophets would be defeated.

But that is not the reference that James gives. He talks about Elijah praying that it wouldn’t rain. Anyone can pray that “it doesn’t rain today” and no one would see that as miraculous. You could do it for a week and no one is going to care. Even if you did it for a month people would basically shrug. This indicates how Elijah was long-suffering, patient, and endured for three years and six months. Now imagine you are in the grip of a terrible drought, it hasn’t rained for two years. If someone knew you were praying for it not to rain they would hate you. This prayer would make Elijah despised. In our minds if someone is sick we want to walk in, lay hands on them, say “be healed in Jesus name” and then they stand up and take up their bed. But this is a very different image of “healing the sick” -- three and half years praying that it not rain.

Also, why would praying that it not rain “heal the sick”? If we look at the context of Elijah’s prayer we see a very interesting story. Israel was infected with Jezebel, a heathen queen. Her rule over Israel was the sickness. When Elijah prayed for fire to fall and the prophets of Baal were killed it didn’t cure Israel of Jezebel’s reign, instead she sent the army looking for Elijah. Rather it was a terrible drought for 3 1/2 years that loosened her grip on the country. At that point everyone in the entire country wants it to rain, so when Elijah demonstrates that only God has the power it showed that God has the power of life, and that this life is what really rules over Israel. This is where you learn that Elijah is the true elder and Jezebel is an evil imposter.

James is talking about the church being infected with a false prophet. In typology the prophets of Baal were involved in money. The Lord’s house is supposed to be a house of prayer and they turn it into a den of thieves. They make merchandise of the saints. James had been involved with the Judaizers, false prophets who had infected the house of God. The cure is not to pray for fire to fall from heaven, but rather that the life giving rain would be withheld by God from these ones. Elijah had to pray for three and a half years the prayer of faith for Israel to see this. His prayer of faith saved Israel and Israel was raised up.

So when James says to “pray for one another, that ye may be healed” this is the context. Someone prayed for him and he was healed. His epistle is the game plan for dealing with a cult, heresy, or any error among the church. If this is not your life then you are not "elder material".

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I like what James says about "if you are sick call for the elders". A true elder has prayed earnestly for the church to be healed, just like Elijah.

17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

I think all of us have “like passions with Elijah”. We would like to pray that God’s fire would fall from heaven, all of God’s people would fall on their face and say “He is God” and all the false prophets would be defeated.

But that is not the reference that James gives. He talks about Elijah praying that it wouldn’t rain. Anyone can pray that “it doesn’t rain today” and no one would see that as miraculous. You could do it for a week and no one is going to care. Even if you did it for a month people would basically shrug. This indicates how Elijah was long-suffering, patient, and endured for three years and six months. Now imagine you are in the grip of a terrible drought, it hasn’t rained for two years. If someone knew you were praying for it not to rain they would hate you. This prayer would make Elijah despised. In our minds if someone is sick we want to walk in, lay hands on them, say “be healed in Jesus name” and then they stand up and take up their bed. But this is a very different image of “healing the sick” -- three and half years praying that it not rain.

Also, why would praying that it not rain “heal the sick”? If we look at the context of Elijah’s prayer we see a very interesting story. Israel was infected with Jezebel, a heathen queen. Her rule over Israel was the sickness. When Elijah prayed for fire to fall and the prophets of Baal were killed it didn’t cure Israel of Jezebel’s reign, instead she sent the army looking for Elijah. Rather it was a terrible drought for 3 1/2 years that loosened her grip on the country. At that point everyone in the entire country wants it to rain, so when Elijah demonstrates that only God has the power it showed that God has the power of life, and that this life is what really rules over Israel. This is where you learn that Elijah is the true elder and Jezebel is an evil imposter.

James is talking about the church being infected with a false prophet. In typology the prophets of Baal were involved in money. The Lord’s house is supposed to be a house of prayer and they turn it into a den of thieves. They make merchandise of the saints. James had been involved with the Judaizers, false prophets who had infected the house of God. The cure is not to pray for fire to fall from heaven, but rather that the life giving rain would be withheld by God from these ones. Elijah had to pray for three and a half years the prayer of faith for Israel to see this. His prayer of faith saved Israel and Israel was raised up.

So when James says to “pray for one another, that ye may be healed” this is the context. Someone prayed for him and he was healed. His epistle is the game plan for dealing with a cult, heresy, or any error among the church. If this is not your life then you are not "elder material".

Doesn't that make Elijah the "Prophet of the Age"?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Doesn't that make Elijah the "Prophet of the Age"?

A type of Christ.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think this is a very difficult position to be in. I have been in congregations where my children were taught that unbelievers go to hell. I believe the Bible is far more nuanced than that and do not appreciate that teaching. But it isn't the pastor teaching it from the pulpit, it is a Sunday school teacher.

I don't think I have ever been in fellowship with Christians where everyone agreed with everyone or where everyone fully comprehended the nuances and scriptural basis for the teachings.

What makes the LRC different from many other meetings is that any member can stand up and speak. We have all been in meetings where someone spoke something that was off the wall.

So then where do you draw the line?

The other issue I have with this is that most Christians that I have met do not make oneness a big issue like it is in the LRC. Redemption, forgiveness, salvation, these are generally the major topics that they focus on. So then, is it a positive thing that those in the LRC focus on the oneness of the Body? I think we all have to agree it is, otherwise why are you even discussing this on this thread? Clearly if you are on this thread you think the oneness is a big issue.

What I consider are the big issues with this teaching --

1. It denies the Lord who bought us with His blood. Any suggestion that the name of your meeting hall is a factor in the oneness is a denial of the work that Jesus did on the cross. That blood is the real "ground of oneness".

and

2. I see this doctrine as a way to create a monopoly, claim that you are the MOTA, and make merchandise of the saints. Regardless of how Dr a Ke understands this doctrine, the facts are clear. It is the basis for the claim that WN was the MOTA. It is the basis for saying WL took the mantle from WN. And, it is the basis for creating the LRC sect and giving WL a monopoly which he in turned used to make merchandise of the saints.

It does not deny the lord because
the blood ,life and light are necessary for oneness. Lee talks about the cycle of life light onessness in the book titled the genuine ground oneness. Nothing about names on meeting halls.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It does not deny the lord because
the blood ,life and light are necessary for oneness. Lee talks about the cycle of life light onessness in the book titled the genuine ground oneness. Nothing about names on meeting halls.

If you investigate the situation of today's Christianity, you will learn that every division is an elevation of some kind… Bible study should not become an elevation that separates God's people from one another. The same is true regarding pray-reading… We need to ask the Lord to grant us mercy that we may not elevate anything in place of Christ. If we hold to an attitude of elevating our opinion or preference, we set up a "high place," a place of division. (The Genuine Ground of Oneness, WL, Chapter 8, Section 5)

When you refer to Watchman Nee as "The Minister of the Age" you have elevated him. Why is he the MOTA? Because he discovered the "ground of the church". The basis for elevating WN is the doctrine of the ground of the church.

This elevation separates God's people. That also is true.

The LRC has held to their opinion and preference, they have elevated WN and WL due to this preference, and as a result they have set up a high place.