The Teachings of Witness Lee and the Local Church - Beisner

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Oregon

I appreciate the matter of the separate consciousness’s and will’s. Those are good points that have been made. The problem I have with this is that eventually what you really have is three Gods…..yet we Christians dare not utter such blasphemy so we have to come up with some sort of mysterious definition of how these three are really only one.

You only have to seem to arrive at three Gods if you insist that the word Person describe the one God. But that might not be completely appropriate.

I think C.S. Lewis addressed this well, he said God is something more than a person. The problem is we can't imagine something more than a person. We think a person is the pinnacle of being. But if it is, it would seem than simply being a person would be enough. But it's not. In fact, it seems the point of being a person is to be in relationship with other persons, otherwise it almost seems a mockery. I think this is very crucial to understanding what's going on.

The difference between God and us is that we are many persons in many beings who are in relation with each other. God is three persons in one being who are in relation. These three are so cooperative that they can act as if they all blend into one Person.

Yet, we have to be careful when using the word Person to decribe the One, because the Bible never really says this. The Bible never says God is one Person. It says he is one LORD, or Jehovah. (See Deut 6:4, Darby, "Hear, Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;") God is one God, but we don't quite know what a God is. It may be premature to insist the word Person describes him the best way possible.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

You only have to seem to arrive at three Gods if you insist that the word Person describe the one God.

...The problem is we can't imagine something more than a person. We think a person is the pinnacle of being. But if it is, it would seem than simply being a person would be enough. But it's not.

... we have to be careful when using the word Person to decribe the One, because the Bible never really says this. The Bible never says God is one Person. It says he is one LORD, or Jehovah. (See Deut 6:4, Darby, "Hear, Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;") God is one God, but we don't quite know what a God is. It may be premature to insist the word Person describes him the best way possible.

As I read the discussions on the Trinity, here and elsewhere, I'm reminded of the story back in the '70s when a long-time motorcycle rider got a first glimpse of the new "mopeds", which had recently been introduced to the riding public. He said, "This thing is fast enough to get you into trouble, but not fast enough to get you out."

Regarding the "three Persons" debate, we have a few verses, a few dozen if we are opportunistic, and we have our limited intelligence, and we have our fleeting and shallow experience, and we have our vain, darkened, imaginations. Then we construct all kinds of theological 'cobwebs'. I never got Lee's fixation on this subject, but I figured it came with the territory (being in the Lc's), so I would put up with it. Now I am starting to think along the lines of OBW, that it was (at least unconsciously) some kind of "divide and conquer" strategy by Witness Lee.

Put out some questionable theology as "truth", and voila! The ones who stick around will be your faithful flock, available to be further abused as necessary. Whether or not that was his intention, that's how it seems to have worked out.

Personal admission: I am full of "questionable theology", with speculations ranging from fairly tame to fairly outre (out there). But I don't sit in front of thousands and present it as reality; it's just stuff I think about occasionally(Apparently I'm just not imaginative enough to get worked up over the Trinity).

Anyway, Jesus is Lord! Right? We got that part okay, didn't we?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Oregon

…The problem I have with this is that eventually what you really have is three Gods…..yet we Christians dare not utter such blasphemy so we have to come up with some sort of mysterious definition of how these three are really only one. .

Thanks to Oregon and Igzy (and now aron) for their last posts here. Good stuff!

In regards to Oregon’s very legitimate concern of “eventually what you really have is three Gods”…

May I repeat something I posted a little earlier:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I have heard it said that God is "three in number but one in substance". This is hard thing for our little minds to wrapped around. I do appreciate what the Anthanasian Creed has to say "neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being". When we say that the Father is the Son or the Son is the Spirit we are indeed confusing the persons. Yet when we say the Father is not the Son we are not dividing the divine being because it is God Himself who has declared that He is three

When I say “it is God Himself who has declared that He is three”, what I mean is that we can reasonably deduce from what is presented to us in the Word that God is three persons. I use the term “persons” without much reservation here because it is the Lord Jesus who used the terms “Father” and “Son” (and the apostles employed the term “Holy Spirit” in a manner which indicated personhood as well).

Please follow me closely here:
We know from the Old Testament that God’s people considered God as their Father, which is why, when the Lord Jesus said “my Father”, “the Father” and “our Father”, they absolutely knew that He was referring to Jehovah God, I AM, Adonai, The Lord God. Later, we find the Lord Jesus making certain statements, that when some of the Jews who heard them, interpreted them as the Lord Jesus claiming that his relationship to Jehovah God was something much more then what they were used to.

Let’s look at John 5:18
“For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God”

Now we know that the Lord Jesus had referred to Jehovah God as his “Father” many times, yet there must have been something different here. According to the Greek, he used the same word that was commonly used for Father (πατήρ patēr), so why were the Jews so up in arms about his use of “Father” this time? Maybe he used a different form that didn’t make it to the Greek text, or maybe some Aramaic slang, or maybe it was just the intonation of his voice – whatever it was, the Jews interpreted it to mean that Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God in a manner similar to a certain human male claiming to be the son of a certain human father. This was anathema to the ears of the monotheistic Jews. Apparently it was big news to them that God had a Son! Then something just as shocking came in John 8:58: “…before Abraham was, I am”. (no surprise that they sought to kill him again). Not only did he claim to be the Son of God, he was also claiming to be eternal.

Here’s an additional thought I have had. At what point in time did the disciples make a switch in their understanding concerning God’s composition so to say. I mean you have a monotheistic faith…..Judaism…..that believes in only one God. Then these ones come into contact with Christ and receive the revelation that “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God”. Then they receive the baptism of the Spirit at a later point. Now…..what was going on inside of their heads concerning God? Was there only one God as they had previously believed? How did the Son and the Spirit fit into the “one God” view.

Up till this point man had learned mainly about God from other men – Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and the prophets. Now, as in the garden before the fall, God was actually speaking directly to his creation. The God that was previously described to them by these men of old was not inaccurate per se, just “incomplete” (I use this word advisedly). So what did the Lord Jesus say to Peter right after his proclamation “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God”? -- "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven”. “Flesh and Blood did not reveal this to you”. Reveal what? - That the God of the universe, the Creator, The Great I AM, Jehovah, The Lord God, Adonai, El Shaddai, Elohim, El Elyon, HAS A SON. God has a Son! Jehovah has a Son!

“..what was going on inside of their heads concerning God?” Excellent question! Well, I think we have the answer to this one right in our hot little hands. It’s called “The New Testament”. And do you know what the most wonderful thing is about these writings? Flesh and blood did not reveal the words to those blessed men. Which is why all their writings confirm that the Lord Jesus is indeed the Son of God, equal in divinity, power, glory, holiness, righteousness and love to his Father. He always was and always will be.

And who revealed all this to me? Not flesh and blood, you can be sure of that. That would be the third of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. Next post….
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

This present evil age we are living in is full of ungodly controlling people both in the secular environment as well as the religious environment which is sometimes cloaked under the banner of a 'spiritual' environment.

Lee was no exception. He had his good/spiritual/uncontrolling side but as he gained a loyal following, the spirit of control grabbed hold of him. He may not have started out wanting to control but once a person tastes 'power' mannnn, that spirit of control takes hold.

Look around. It happens everywhere. A 'nobody' runs for city council..then for mayor..and lo & behold, before long, he's the mayor of NYC ! A person becomes a CEO of a company...a -well known- spiritual leader with political connections....and the beat goes on...

Yes, the beat goes on. CMW's post put the dilemma in a nutshell. It is not like these peaceable, Christ-loving people got coopted by a nasty controlling Mr. Lee, but rather at least partly that they chose to become his "loyal following", and this process corrupted both him and them.

Look at the pattern. 1 Sam. 8, the people went to Samuel and wanted a King over them, so that they would be like the nations. It's not like the nasty Saul tricked the people into taking him as King. He was a nobody, but the people created a role for him, he walked into it, and the result was both ruinous for him and Israel.

Look at John chapter 6, verse 15. Jesus saw that the people wanted to seize Him by force and make Him King, so he withdrew and went away, alone, to a mountain to pray. Lee, unfortunately, didn't withdraw. He took the earthly "leader" role that the loyal following wanted.

The example of Jesus is very rare in human history. He chose a heavenly kingdom. Many of His followers get distracted by earthly roles, with all the trappings that go along with them. All the pomp and circumstance.

Matthew 6:1 "But beware of doing your good actions in the sight of men, in order to attract their gaze; if you do, there is no reward for you with your Father who is in Heaven"