Outer Darkness?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you purposely try to misunderstand every other poster?

I doubt that Evangelical misunderstands. He knows exactly what he's doing. Why do I say this? In his own words:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is hilarious given what you wrote a few posts ago and contains more "crapola" than anyone else has written. Straw-man's are part and parcel of this sort of discussion - grow up and get over it. I'm not asking for respect, I'm questioning ... .

This post was written to me awhile back on another thread. Click on the little blue arrow for more context. If you find yourself going round and round in circles with him, like the last few "E-posts", just remember that according to Evangelical, that's "part and parcel of this sort of discussion", and you should "grow up." (Mutual respect is not important to him.)

Nell

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Nell

I doubt that Evangelical misunderstands. He knows exactly what he's doing. Why do I say this? In his own words:



This post was written to me. Follow the link for more context. If you find yourself chasing your tail, like the last few "E-posts", just remember that according to Evangelical, that's "part and parcel of this sort of discussion", and you should "grow up." (Mutual respect is not important to him.)

Nell

The link is here:

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5765

Put simply, I asked about why people were rejecting the "stock standard theological resources" I was using in that discussion to show they are not so different from Lee's interpretation of the Trinity.

Nell, replied in post #158 by saying most of my posts are crapola (his word, not mine). He seemed to misunderstand that I was not asking for respect, but wondering why not only Lee is rejected but also solid theological resources.

Strawman's on both sides are part and parcel of discussion on internet forums. It's a common debate tactic, and also used in politics, sport and many other arenas. That's being pragmatic, not disrespectful or intentional.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I doubt that Evangelical misunderstands. He knows exactly what he's doing. Why do I say this? In his own words:



This post was written to me awhile back on another thread. Click on the little blue arrow for more context. If you find yourself going round and round in circles with him, like the last few "E-posts", just remember that according to Evangelical, that's "part and parcel of this sort of discussion", and you should "grow up." (Mutual respect is not important to him.)

Nell

Nell,

Did you see EvanJelly's latest cop-out -- "all he needs to do is eat the Lord"?

Where have we heard that before?

And to show how carefully he pays attention, Jelly calls you a "he."

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell,

Did you see EvanJelly's latest cop-out -- "all he needs to do is eat the Lord"?

Where have we heard that before?

And to show how carefully he pays attention, Jelly calls you a "he."

Ohio,

I noticed. It looks to me like all that "eating" would have produced more fruit...well I guess it has, just not the kind of fruit you want.

It also seems to me that, as believers, on a Christian forum, (I've said this before) Evangelical should understand that we try to hold to a higher standard than your common Internet food-fight. "Strawman" arguments exist for one reason...OK two reasons...deceit and deflection. I believe most of the forum members post their position on a matter with honesty and integrity without subterfuge. Most believe that "strawman" arguments are not acceptable. Not to mention a waste of time and storage space on a server. The ol' "everybody does it...part and parcel" excuse is pathetic. It never worked on my parents.

Yeah...there was a point when E-man seemed to understand that I am a woman...like on the Woman of Chayil thread maybe??? Duh. As he said in his own words...he's not looking for respect...and with that attitude he's not likely to show much toward others...hence the strawman thing.

Hopefully this will help new members get some perspective on ... things.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

I noticed. It looks to me like all that "eating" would have produced more fruit...well I guess it has, just not the kind of fruit you want.

It also seems to me that, as believers, on a Christian forum, (I've said this before) Evangelical should understand that we try to hold to a higher standard than your common Internet food-fight. "Strawman" arguments exist for one reason...OK two reasons...deceit and deflection. I believe most of the forum members post their position on a matter with honesty and integrity without subterfuge. Most believe that "strawman" arguments are not acceptable. Not to mention a waste of time and storage space on a server. The ol' "everybody does it...part and parcel" excuse is pathetic. It never worked on my parents.

Yeah...there was a point when E-man seemed to understand that I am a woman...like on the Woman of Chayil thread maybe??? Duh. As he said in his own words...he's not looking for respect...and with that attitude he's not likely to show much toward others...hence the strawman thing.

Hopefully this will help new members get some perspective on ... things.

Nell

Nell, he is not looking for respect? Says a bunch about him.

Without respect, there is no humanity, no civilization, no families, no marriage, no church, no nothing. Without respect, we merely begin with ad hominems, and then rapidly deteriorate. I've seen many on the internet, even a few here, that appeared to have no respect for others.

My Mom used to preach that I don't have to like everyone all the time, but I have to respect everyone all the time. Having nine kids, she was forced to do lots of preaching.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

He is not looking for respect?

There is no humanity, no civilization, no families, no church, no nothing, without respect. Without respect we merely begin with ad hominems, and then rapidly deteriorate.

My Mom used to preach that I don't have to like everyone all the time, but I have to respect everyone all the time. Having nine kids, she was forced to do lots of preaching.

Yup, Ohio. That's what he said. I guess that explains the ad hominems and deterioration. He has tried to explain, re-word, reshape, etc., but no apology, no repentance and most of all, no change in behavior.

Catherine Marshall said: "The first thing to take place in communication is respect. Without respect, communication does not take place." I think she's right.

Nell

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is hilarious given what you wrote a few posts ago and contains more "crapola" than anyone else has written. Straw-man's are part and parcel of this sort of discussion - grow up and get over it. I'm not asking for respect, I'm questioning ... .

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yup, Ohio. That's what he said. I guess that explains the ad hominems and deterioration. He has tried to explain, re-word, reshape, etc., but no apology, no repentance and most of all, no change in behavior.

Catherine Marshall said: "The first thing to take place in communication is respect. Without respect, communication does not take place." I think she's right.

Nell

Yes we've seen no apology or change in behavior from you either, potty mouth Nell. I know you've been stewing over the threads from months ago where I totally destroyed that poorly written Google-book with arguments from NT Greek scholars, and you just took this opportunity to let all that hatred and anger out!

[Nell]

TO Evangelical and All Forum Members:

I would like to take this opportunity to sincerely apologize to Evangelical for referring to some of his posts as "crapola". I regret this and recognize that it was conduct unbecoming. I ask for your forgiveness and hope you can forgive me for this mischaracterization of some your contributions to this Forum.

Blessings to you all, and peace--

Nell

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, he is not looking for respect? Says a bunch about him.

Without respect, there is no humanity, no civilization, no families, no marriage, no church, no nothing. Without respect, we merely begin with ad hominems, and then rapidly deteriorate. I've seen many on the internet, even a few here, that appeared to have no respect for others.

My Mom used to preach that I don't have to like everyone all the time, but I have to respect everyone all the time. Having nine kids, she was forced to do lots of preaching.

Off topic!. Moderator!

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Nell

Hopefully this will help new members get some perspective on ... things.

Nell, Thanks. He is indeed quite different from the other brothers and sisters I know in the LC.

[Drake]

Fuji )"I absolutely disagree with Lee's outer darkness thingy"

Ok, but what are you for?

The outer darkness is....?

Drake

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by Drake

Fuji )"I absolutely disagree with Lee's outer darkness thingy"

Ok, but what are you for?

The outer darkness is....?

Drake

Dear Brother Drake,

Thanks for your question. I said earlier in the second post of this thread (way before it went off topic) that I don't believe there is a future millennial kingdom( I believe there are only two age, and we are waiting for the age to come, and the 1000 year now as in Rev 20 - we are experiencing now as we are kings and priests, Satan is bound because Christ is building His church now and the gate of Hades has no way to prevail it, yes he will be realease one last time yet it's said that he is immediately defeated into second death and has no victory) BUT as I said this is just my view, and who am I ? So this is NOT a dividing issue, and I don't at all like to debate. I'm for CHRIST and I may be wrong.

*BUT* even if there is a millennial kingdom coming soon, I don't believe in Lee's idea of "outer darkness", as described by Bradley and others who have posted here (which is the original topic here), I believe all who are in Christ will enter into kingdom as I believe everyone who partakes of Christ is an overcomer and no one today should be living in fear and condemnation thinking that they have not obtained victory (as I said in Nee's words, victory is not attained by us but obtained already in and through Christ).

If I remember correctly, "outer darkness" in the Bible is for "godless men" and it contrasts with the wedding feast of the Lamb. I don't know much of the nature of it (or in other's words, the nature of hell), but outer darkness signifies a separation from God, which was the first sin of Adam and Eve - wanting to live independently from God (Nee and Lee is heavy on this), in CS Lewis's words: There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened... I'm aware that Lewis believes in purgatory but that's a whole different topic. But yes, I lean closer to believing that the "outer darkness" is what some call hell because it's a separation from God. And then perhaps some will argue" but hell is the lake of fire and there is light....so it's not darkness..." but I don't believe we should take all these "literally" --- God throughout the Bible is always using various images, symbols to point to the same thing from different angles so that our finite mind can perhaps get a step closer to His infinite mind. It's like, how can He be a lamb but at the same time a lion. But paradox points us to Him!

And so it seems to me Lee's outer darkness contradicts directly to his constant emphasis of once saved always saved. At least during the past years I was in LC, this doctrine was taught all the time I think that's why in LC, with this contradiction, some like Bradley have doubts about their victory or even salvation in Christ. You may not have experienced it but it's not uncommon with former LC members or my current LC friend to suffer from this doubt. It's a heavy burden but His burden is light. He's the author and finisher of faith. My God is not a God that breeds guilt. Godly grief, yes, but not guilt. God doesn't breed a "second-class" Christian. He gives life and peace. And I believe we are all equal before the Lord in terms of standing.

Of course I can be wrong as always but like you asked what am I for? I'm for Christ and who am I? Who can give counsel to the One who knows all things? I hope all I do is to fix my eyes on Him and that I'll continue to learn from you all. I'd rather let it go than to debate. And like a little brother said earlier, I don't think it's our job to take seat of judgment to decide who is an overcomer or who is not. Thanks so much for reading.

There's also an older thread that was about this topic: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5079

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Nell, Thanks. He is indeed quite different from the other brothers and sisters I know in the LC.

You are quite different as well from other brothers and sisters I know in the LC. Most in the LC are not in the Recovery with ulterior motives, as you are. You'd be a prime candidate for the outer darkness I'm sure.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You are quite different as well from other brothers and sisters I know in the LC. Most in the LC are not in the Recovery with ulterior motives, as you are. You'd be a prime candidate for the outer darkness I'm sure.

Evangelical, Thanks. Coming from you, it sounds almost like a blessing.

Your choice of words is quite different from the people I know in the LC. Are you truly a member of the LC?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Evangelical, Thanks. Coming from you, it sounds almost like a blessing.

Your choice of words is quite different from the people I know in the LC. Are you truly a member of the LC?

Hi A little brother,

No I am not a member of the LC, but a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality. Your choice of words as "member of LC" suggests to me you are not part of the Recovery - LC people do not speak like that or consider the LC to be a denomination. They do not consider themselves a capital L C Local Church, and they don't consider themselves a "member of the LC" as you put it. They would say "we are not of the Local Church but are just the church in the locality". This to me raises suspicions that you are pretending to be in the "LC" with some ulterior motive.

I can see why someone might pretend to be part of the LC in order to sympathize and help LC members. But someone in my position on this forum who supports the "LC" when 99% of people on this forum don't, why would I pretend to be in it?