Outer Darkness?

[JJ]

I love Ohio's post too!

2 featured posts?

[Cal]

One of the things you'll find, Bradley, is during this time of separation from the LC the Devil will really try to accuse you and scare you. Fear of "outer darkness" is one of the things he will use against you.

It is not that we don't need to respect that the Lord requires things of us, or may even discipline us when we are judged. It is that the LCM-specific fears should be ignored and you should limit your concern to whether you are obeying the basic commandments to Christians. Are you loving, forgiving, honest, fair? Do you seek to live to God's glory?

Whether you attend the LC meetings, or are in "the Recovery" or read Witness Lee's ministry are not part of that deal. So don't worry about those.

So there is a balance. Yes, God expects us to live obedient lives, but no he doesn't expect us to live them out in Witness Lee's movement or according to Lee's proprietary vision.

God loves you. Find a simple, straightforward, non-weird church that does not try to control you. Keep it simple and stay positive.

My favorite Bible right now is the Easy-to-Read Version (ERV). It's written with a very limited vocabulary, I think about a fifth-grade level. It's great for kids, but I think it does a great job of conveying the essential meaning with minimal confusion. I use it for my daily reading.

[Evangelical]

Many Christians believe in hell for eternity for defeated Christians (they interpret outer darkness as hell not as literal darkness)..consider the 1000 year idea as a blessing. Its purpose is not punishment but training. Its a blessing that God puts us through training not hellfire.

But if Lee is wrong and outer darkness means eternal damnation then there is a lot more to worry.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If Lee is wrong...

This was one of the appeals about the recovery, having a solid interpretation of scripture that we all agree on so you can be confident that's what it means. Now its like I'm on my own again.

I suppose thats for the best because I have to actually study the word carefully, instead of just taking someone's word for it!

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Bradley

This was one of the appeals about the recovery, having a solid interpretation of scripture that we all agree on so you can be confident that's what it means. Now its like I'm on my own again.

I suppose thats for the best because I have to actually study the word carefully, instead of just taking someone's word for it!

The idea of Lee having a solid interpretation of scripture is just a myth. They may say Lee was using the Bible to interpret the Bible. But if you dig deep enough, you will find it is not the case.

Anyway, back to discussion on outer darkness. Evangelical said most Christians believe the idea of hell for defeated Christians. But I believe more are into "once saved, always saved". The outer darkness idea is not a gernerally accepted view and could be an effort trying to balance between grace and judgement, God's love and righteousness.

Personally, I am inclined more to the view that Christians can fall from grace or leave their faith (or may be they think they believe in God but are actually not). And this will have consequences. Otherwise, a large part of the NT epistles would be unnecessary because those chapters were to teach the believers what not to do.

May be the more important question to ask is whether we truly want to live a life that is pleasing to God and are committed to seek and act in this direction, trusting He will lead us along the path and will judge us appropriately in the end.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by A little brother

The idea of Lee having a solid interpretation of scripture is just a myth.

Yes I know this, I was merely saying that the false sense of security thinking that you know the correct interpretation was nice, comfortable. But now I have no such security - because I realise Lee's faults.

I'm more of the 'can't lose salvation' camp also. You can lose fellowship with the Lord and His good pleasure, but even if you're a naughty son who needs discipline, you're still family.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bradley

. . . even if you're a naughty son who needs discipline, you're still family.

The failure of the gospel of Lee was that it made us introspective & more subjective than we already were. It became the 'gospel of me'. We'd ask ourselves, "Am I going to make it", i.e. achieve the 'kingdom reward' and avoid the 1,ooo-year 'outer darkness'. I believe this is just a house of mirrors. The more we'd look at ourselves, and measure ourselves, and consider ourselves, the more dis-oriented we'd become.

The gospel, the Bible, is about one lonely little man. One pious Jew. His family abandoned him. His disciples fled - the shepherd was struck and the sheep scattered. Those who remained jeered at him, "He trusted in God; let Him (the Father) save him (the Christ) now."

Christ lost everything. But as the scripture says, he trusted in God, and endured to the end; never losing his faith, his hope, or his love. It is his faith that now wells up within us, his hope and his love. It is his holy spirit that now gives us life and propels us forward to the prize of the high calling.

Any way I babble too much. As you can see it's a bad habit with me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Anyway, back to discussion on outer darkness. Evangelical said most Christians believe the idea of hell for defeated Christians. But I believe more are into "once saved, always saved". The outer darkness idea is not a gernerally accepted view and could be an effort trying to balance between grace and judgement, God's love and righteousness.

The scripture provides much justification for purging / outer darkness / purgatory whatever you may call it. This does not mean we will perish, and it does not mean we will be judged for our sin. Rather the judgment seat of Christ (before the Millennium in contrast with the judgment of sinners afterwards) will reward or punish us based on our works.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The scripture provides much justification for purging / outer darkness / purgatory whatever you may call it. This does not mean we will perish, and it does not mean we will be judged for our sin. Rather the judgment seat of Christ (before the Millennium in contrast with the judgment of sinners afterwards) will reward or punish us based on our works.

I understand the justification of the outer darkness. Just that I couldn't find much information on what will happen afterwards. Will those being punished during the Millennium be restored to glory with the other believers?

It is easier to find verses saying it would be worse if believers turn their backs on Christ, for example,

2Pe 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Anyway, back to discussion on outer darkness. Evangelical said most Christians believe the idea of hell for defeated Christians. But I believe more are into "once saved, always saved". The outer darkness idea is not a gernerally accepted view and could be an effort trying to balance between grace and judgement, God's love and righteousness.

Personally, I am inclined more to the view that Christians can fall from grace or leave their faith (or may be they think they believe in God but are actually not). And this will have consequences. Otherwise, a large part of the NT epistles would be unnecessary because those chapters were to teach the believers what not to do

When I was in LC, in some conferences/ training that I went, there was some continuous mocking of Calvinism (even though I'm not a fan of it I don't like their mocking tone) and it's funny because at the same time many of them hold and insist the belief of"once saved always saved" and even more so double predestination, which is the common belief of many calvinists today.

I believe one reason of the epistles constantly telling believers what not do to is to encourage us not to fall back and also, to know that these are the fruits that are only capable to be produced as a result of living by the Spirit, since we all , despite being saved, often still live in the flesh.

I agree greatly that our primary job is to ask the Lord to give us a pure heart that wants to please Him and Him only, now we can only see dimly. When we desire Him only everything will come naturally and we shouldn't be suffering from condemnation as that described by brother Bradley. I hope we go on to use this forum to build each other up and restore one another in His love

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Fuji

...many of them hold and insist the belief of 'once saved always saved'

Yeah WL teaches it in the book 'the Joy, Assurance and Security of Salvation'.

The 'constant mocking' you mention - I'm guilty of that too. There's a real culture of ridiculing other Christians in 'Babylon', and everyone does it in the LC so its easy to slip into. Not that that's an excuse. I knew in doctrine that we were Laodicea and not Philadelphia but now its really a deep truth for me.