The Unique Move of God

[Evangelical]

I think every genuine Christian would be concerned if a person wants to leave their church. Whether Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Presbyterian, Mormon, JW, or the Recovery. I think Catholic and Orthodox believe if a person leaves their church they are in danger of going to hell because it is "falling away from the faith", and they associate the church with the faith. Leaving the church is leaving "the faith".

Unlike them we do not consider "the church" and "the faith" to be the same thing, because "the faith" is not built upon this idea that we must hold to a certain apostolic tradition, so it is possible for a person to leave the church and still be saved. That is one point of difference.

I think some members here who have not been with the Recovery for "30 or 40 years" are not taking what current members (Drake, myself) are saying seriously. Which really proves they are arguing from perceptions and encounters they had in the past, rather than how things are today.

If I was to characterize the attitude of the church today I would say it leaned towards the side of indifference rather than the side of forcing me to stay against my will.

Before I joined the Recovery I could come and go as I pleased and no one said anything. It is still the same today. A number of people come and go, even people who have been with the Recovery longer than I.

The general attitude of most people is one of "where are you?" and "how are you doing?" rather than "you must not leave us, if you leave us something bad will happen to you". I have never encountered that attitude personally.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think every genuine Christian would be concerned if a person wants to leave their church. Whether Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Presbyterian, Mormon, JW, or the Recovery. I think Catholic and Orthodox believe if a person leaves their church they are in danger of going to hell because it is "falling away from the faith", and they associate the church with the faith. Leaving the church is leaving "the faith".

The general attitude of most people is one of "where are you?" and "how are you doing?" rather than "you must not leave us, if you leave us something bad will happen to you". I have never encountered that attitude personally.

I agree that most would be concerned if someone left their church and went into the world. But not if they just moved on to an another church. Not these days anyway.

Perhaps the general attitude of LCM believers is more tolerant today. But that just makes the point that the previous attitude, which has been witnessed to by example after example, was wrong and should be publicly denounced.

And I don't believe the LCM leadership has really repented from this attitude. Clearly Benson hasn't. And why a clearly crazy person like him is still allowed to be in leadership of that movement is beyond me.

It reminds me of the Catholic church. When I was a kid the attitude of Catholics was that you had to be a Catholic to "go to heaven." Most Catholics don't believe that any more, but the leadership has yet to fully denounce that attitude.

Why? I'm sure the reasons aren't noble. They probably fear a rash of lawsuits. Which I'm sure the LCM leaders do as well.

LCM leaders were plain wrong to pressure people to stay there, and if they don't realize that then they are plain stupid.

Not an attractive choice for them, but unfortunately the only viable ones.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Unlike them we do not consider "the church" and "the faith" to be the same thing, because "the faith" is not built upon this idea that we must hold to a certain apostolic tradition, so it is possible for a person to leave the church and still be saved. That is one point of difference.

I think some members here who have not been with the Recovery for "30 or 40 years" are not taking what current members (Drake, myself) are saying seriously. Which really proves they are arguing from perceptions and encounters they had in the past, rather than how things are today.

If I was to characterize the attitude of the church today I would say it leaned towards the side of indifference rather than the side of forcing me to stay against my will.

Evangelical, may be many members have not been with the Recovery for quite some years, but I am currently with the Recovery (though not a registered member of this forum). I know no other Christians who badmouth other denominations (or whatever you call it) like the way LCM does.

When you say the "attitude of the church today", I believe you are talking about the Recovery. If it is, let me remind you of the outlines in the training for elders and responsible ones in Fall 2015, just in case you weren't paying attention. No, it is not forcing people to stay for argument sake. But the attitude of the Recovery hasn't change a bit, if not getting worse.

(For other members here, sorry that I have to pollute this space with some of the LCM outlines)

C. For Paul, the present evil age was Judaism; for us today, the present evil age is deformed and degraded Christianity—1:4; Matt. 13:31-33, 44-46:
1. We need to realize how much we need to be delivered from the influence of religion in the present evil age.
2. The church is the living Body of Christ, but what surrounds us today is a religion—deformed and degraded Christianity—full of traditions, organizations, performances, and falsehoods; the Lord cannot accomplish His purpose in this situation.
3. We all need to be delivered from religion, from Christianity as the present evil age; we must come out of Babylon, and Babylon must come out of us—Ezra 1; Rev. 18:4; Zech. 3:1-4.
4. The history among us in the Lord’s recovery has been a history of coming out of Christianity—a history of coming out of and being outside of the present evil age—Gal. 1:4; Heb. 13:12-13.
5. Because the Lord’s recovery is different from today’s religion—deformed and degraded Christianity—it is impossible for there to be reconciliation between the recovery and Christianity—Matt. 13:31-33, 44-46; Rev. 18:4; 19:1-3, 7-9.
6. We need to maintain the gap between the Lord’s recovery and Christianity; the wider this gap is, the better, because it is a gap between us and the present evil age—Gal. 1:4.

[Evangelical]

Thankyou for your input brother. I hope others here (Ohio!) note what you said about not forcing people to stay.

Ohio's over-the-top post here:

LSM's "oneness" is no different than Rome's use of force during its power days. It's the oneness enforced by the edge of a sword.

Personally I see nothing offensive in the outline posts. When I was in denominations I was not offended by those statements either, because there was an element of truth in them. They are stock standard beliefs in the Recovery and reading material.

The far majority of material in the LSM outlines, 99%, is not about badmouthing denominations at all. It is very much focused on Christ and revelation. Statements about denominations are used to show and contrast the difference between the religious Christianity and genuine Christianity. There is often a positive focus, for example, we would not say "what this denomination does is wrong" for the sake of it, we might say "isn't it a shame this denomination does not preach the gospel more or use the Bible more". In my mind it is balanced. There is also positive things said about denominations too. I have been involved in a number of discussions where what some denominations are doing is regarded positively, or one aspect of them is said to be "very good".

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Thankyou for your input brother. I hope others here (Ohio!) note what you said about not forcing people to stay.

Personally I see nothing offensive in the outline posts. When I was in denominations I was not offended by those statements either, because there was an element of truth in them. They are stock standard beliefs in the Recovery and reading material.

The far majority of material in the LSM outlines, 99%, is not about badmouthing denominations at all.

You like to interpret things literally, don't you? It makes me wonder why you didn't notice the omission of "deformed" or "degraded" on Christianity in the last point of the outlines. Literally, "Christianity" covers both religious and genuine Christianity, right?

And thank you for admitting 1% of the LSM outlines can be about badmouthing. That could be a good start for you. I am quite sure you are familiar with 1Cor 5:6 "...Do you not know that a little leaven (1%?) leavens the whole lump? "

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There is also positive things said about denominations too. I have been involved in a number of discussions where what some denominations are doing is regarded positively, or one aspect of them is said to be "very good".

Do you have some specific examples to share?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

You like to interpret things literally, don't you? It makes me wonder why you didn't notice the omission of "deformed" or "degraded" on Christianity in the last point of the outlines. Literally, "Christianity" covers both religious and genuine Christianity, right?

And thank you for admitting 1% of the LSM outlines can be about badmouthing. That could be a good start for you. I am quite sure you are familiar with 1Cor 5:6 "...Do you not know that a little leaven (1%?) leavens the whole lump? "



Do you have some specific examples to share?

To me they are statements of fact, so the criticism is warranted. Christianity indeed is full of full of traditions, organizations, performances, and falsehoods. We only need to look at the number of denominations that support or accept gay marriage and female pastors/priests.

There are plenty of times when Jesus badmouthed the religionists. In fact a number of the parables are thinly veiled slights and mockeries of them, to the amusement of his lowly audience.

I don't think we can get through genuine Christianity without exposing and saying something about the false. But in Witness Lee's ministry this is always in view of something more positive. "these things are dark, but here is light". Rather than criticizing for the sake of criticizing.

I think the topic outline is not about criticizing or badmouthing but about our deliverance, note the second point in the outline - "We need to realize how much we need to be delivered from the influence of religion in the present evil age."

If you don't think there's a need to be delivered from the "present evil age" or that this age is evil, then you may have been deceived by the anti-Christ spirit. I would encourage you to get back into fellowship with your brothers and sisters in the Recovery who are pursuing Christ.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To me they are statements of fact, so the criticism is warranted. Christianity indeed is full of full of traditions, organizations, performances, and falsehoods. We only need to look at the number of denominations that support or accept gay marriage and female pastors/priests.

Have you any idea how many "traditions, organizations, performances, and falsehoods" exist in the LC's? I have watched these multiply exponentially over the last 40 years. Give them as much time as some other denomination, and they will be just as bad or worse.

I don't think we can get through genuine Christianity without exposing and saying something about the false. But in Witness Lee's ministry this is always in view of something more positive. "these things are dark, but here is light". Rather than criticizing for the sake of criticizing.

That's the goal of this forum, we are not criticizing for the sake of criticizing, but we want to help both the leaders and the members in TLR.

I think the topic outline is not about criticizing or badmouthing but about our deliverance, note the second point in the outline - "We need to realize how much we need to be delivered from the influence of religion in the present evil age."

Witness Lee made "religion" the boogeyman, but religion is totally benign. James defines religion in 1.27: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained." How is that evil? James' definition exactly matches the teachings of the Gospels.

If you don't think there's a need to be delivered from the "present evil age" or that this age is evil, then you may have been deceived by the anti-Christ spirit. I would encourage you to get back into fellowship with your brothers and sisters in the Recovery who are pursuing Christ.

Of course we need to be delivered from this present evil age. Why do you think I left TLR? It had become part of this evil age! Have you not read any of the posts on this forum? Do you think we made these stories up?

Are they really pursuing Christ? Or are they pursuing Lee's teachings and practices?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you any idea how many "traditions, organizations, performances, and falsehoods" exist in the LC's? I have watched these multiply exponentially over the last 40 years. Give them as much time as some other denomination, and they will be just as bad or worse.


That's the goal of this forum, we are not criticizing for the sake of criticizing, but we want to help both the leaders and the members in TLR.


Witness Lee made "religion" the boogeyman, but religion is totally benign. James defines religion in 1.27: "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained." How is that evil? James' definition exactly matches the teachings of the Gospels.


Of course we need to be delivered from this present evil age. Why do you think I left TLR? It had become part of this evil age! Have you not read any of the posts on this forum? Do you think we made these stories up?

Are they really pursuing Christ? Or are they pursuing Lee's teachings and practices?

I think you know that the term "religious" has nothing to do with that verse in James. Different contexts. Religion as opposed to personal relationship.

I'm glad you agree about deliverance from this present evil age. The next question is where is it to be found. The answer to that is, in the denominations. I don't think joining the denominations will help anyone escape from the evil age. If the TRL is part of it also, then where should we go? A good community church or house church?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To me they are statements of fact, so the criticism is warranted. Ct.

Here are more statements of fact:

The LCM has a history of corruption, duplicity, abuse, finagling, cover-ups, hiding history, bullying, plotting, lying, double-talk, financial hanky-panky, even lawbreaking and various other nauseating instances of hypocrisy that would cause the paint to peel on Watchman Nee's coffin.

So in the interest of "balance" and "fairness," where is the LCM training outline on that fact, Mr. Fair and Balanced?

Good Lord, you must think we are idiots.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To me they are statements of fact, so the criticism is warranted. Christianity indeed is full of full of traditions, organizations, performances. . . .

We will leave out the "falsehoods" because you are too.

So how is it that the statement that "Christianity is full of traditions" is evidence of anything diminished, degraded, unspiritual, etc.? I would suggest that the LRC is full of traditions. And not all of them are bad. Your Lord's table meeting is a decent tradition. It is observed according to a rather precise format, down to the bread made with bleached white flour. I realize that Ohio has made some real noise about that fact. But ignoring the hypocrisy surrounding the rhetoric and the fact of bleached white flour, it is not a problem. But for all that it is, it is not the formula proclaimed in the Bible. None of them are. Each method of doing it is simply a tradition.

So how is it that the statement that "Christianity is full of organizations" is evidence of anything diminished, degraded, unspiritual, etc.? All groups have organization. And when you break things down to finer levels, it is often seen that each has its own organization. Same for the LRC. There is nothing particularly in error with there being organization. And waving "holy water" over your organization by calling it a living organism does not change anything. Anyone can claim their organization is a living organism. There is nothing special about yours that is spoken positively of in the Bible to gain such special status or spoken negatively about anyone else to deny them similar status.

So how is it that the statement that "Christianity is full of performances" is evidence of anything diminished, degraded, unspiritual, etc.? By definition, if you do something, you perform. Just because you don't like someone else's actions, traditions, etc., does not transform their actions into something negative called "performance" while the actions, traditions, etc., that you like are not performances. The fact that you denigrate others over their ways, traditions, organization, etc. — all things that are not matters of the core of the faith — is evidence of a sectarian mind. The Methodists like their ways. The Baptists like their ways. The Anglicans like their ways. But to the best of my knowledge, none of the ways of any of these is definitionally void of truth, meaning, spirituality, etc. just because I don't like it. And the fact that I don't like it does not make it un-Christian, degraded, poor, "low gospel," etc.

Answer even one of those without reference to your preference of ways to do things. Do it strictly by reference to the scripture as defining either a set way that is being cast aside, or defining practices that are not acceptable. I daresay you cannot actually do either. You may think you can, but only by reference to your false teachings found in your third testament — the Collected Works of Witness Lee, along with the footnotes to your private Bible translation.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by A little brother

6. We need to maintain the gap between the Lord’s recovery and Christianity; the wider this gap is, the better, because it is a gap between us and the present evil age—Gal. 1:4.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Personally I see nothing offensive in the outline posts. When I was in denominations I was not offended by those statements either, because there was an element of truth in them. They are stock standard beliefs in the Recovery and reading material.

The far majority of material in the LSM outlines, 99%, is not about badmouthing denominations at all. It is very much focused on Christ and revelation. Statements about denominations are used to show and contrast the difference between the religious Christianity and genuine Christianity. There is often a positive focus, for example, we would not say "what this denomination does is wrong" for the sake of it, we might say "isn't it a shame this denomination does not preach the gospel more or use the Bible more". In my mind it is balanced. There is also positive things said about denominations too. I have been involved in a number of discussions where what some denominations are doing is regarded positively, or one aspect of them is said to be "very good".

The problem is that the LCM hammers the failings of Christianity and white-washes its own failings. This is exactly the opposite of what the Bible tells us to do.

If the LCM was half as interested in rooting out its own corruption as it was with pointing out "Christianity's" corruption there would be no need for this board. It's a classic example on a movement-wide scale of having a log in one's own eye and pointing out the splinter in everyone else's eyes.

I realized this can work both ways. Some of us are pretty demanding of the LCM. (But they should be able to take it. After all, they are "God's best," so they should have high standards. ) But I can testify that I pray seriously to the Lord to guide what I write and to point out any hypocrisy in me. Having been in the LCM, I doubt they have the same care toward those they accuse with their "stock standard" condemnations.

What's most irksome is the way the LCM conveniently contrasts themselves with everyone else. They are the good guys, everyone else are the bad guys. Way, way too easy and nowhere near accurate. That outline that little brother posted could be paraphrased by this parable of Jesus's:

"The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.....'

LCM Version: "The LCM stood by themselves and prayed: 'God we thank you that we are not like the rest of Christianity: Deformed, degraded, false--or even like this free group over there. We follow the 'one ministry' and the 'unique vision', we... blah, blah....'"

[And Jesus concluded]
"For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

Matt 18:11-12,14

[Cal]

The whole problem with the LCM can be summarized as mistaking self-righteousness for holiness. It's the same disease that afflicted the Pharisees.

The Pharisees were absolutely strict in their interpretation of Scripture, and from one view you have to say they were "accurate." The problem is their spirit was all wrong. They missed the whole point.

The same thing can be said about the LCM. They pride themselves on their strict interpretation of the Scriptures and, like the Pharisees, from one point of view they can be said to be "accurate."

But their self-righteousness gives away that they are missing some important points.

Perhaps if they focused on that corruption they would have less time or even inclination to condemn everyone else.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by A little brother

(For other members here, sorry that I have to pollute this space with some of the LCM outlines)

C. For Paul, the present evil age was Judaism; for us today, the present evil age is deformed and degraded Christianity—1:4; Matt. 13:31-33, 44-46:
1. We need to realize how much we need to be delivered from the influence of religion in the present evil age.
2. The church is the living Body of Christ, but what surrounds us today is a religion—deformed and degraded Christianity—full of traditions, organizations, performances, and falsehoods; the Lord cannot accomplish His purpose in this situation.
3. We all need to be delivered from religion, from Christianity as the present evil age; we must come out of Babylon, and Babylon must come out of us—Ezra 1; Rev. 18:4; Zech. 3:1-4.
4. The history among us in the Lord’s recovery has been a history of coming out of Christianity—a history of coming out of and being outside of the present evil age—Gal. 1:4; Heb. 13:12-13.
5. Because the Lord’s recovery is different from today’s religion—deformed and degraded Christianity—it is impossible for there to be reconciliation between the recovery and Christianity—Matt. 13:31-33, 44-46; Rev. 18:4; 19:1-3, 7-9.
6. We need to maintain the gap between the Lord’s recovery and Christianity; the wider this gap is, the better, because it is a gap between us and the present evil age—Gal. 1:4.

This outline is absolutely pathetic! What a sloppy use of scriptures!

Have they not read the scripture, "with what judgment you judge you will be judged." (Matt 7.2)???

The writers of this outline have become blind and proud Laodiceans, having not a clue that the leadership in the Recovery itself is far worse than those they judge. They are the present evil age!!!

• Where else could church leaders boondoggle their followers into investing into Daystar Motorhomes? (But, hey "investors," consider it an offering to God! Tennis "racket" anyone?)
• Where else could a ministry regularly sue other publishers and justify their course of action by "appealing to Caesar?" (Sounds like the Pharisees, "we have no king but Caesar.)
• Where else could a ministry be run by unsaved profligate family members, who have a history of molesting the interns. (And once again W. Lee assured us, "I'll handle this.")
• Where else could a ministry have its own legal defense team to sue all member LC's who become too "independent?" (Yet advertise a system which alone maintains autonomous LC's, not like those evil denominations.)
• Where else could leaders publicly slander and libel ex-co-workers like Ingalls, Mallon, Chu, Dong, So, etc. etc. yet it is they alone who are godly enough to bear the cross, and not sue in return. (Teflon LSM has escaped criminal and civil litigations for decades.)

Many of us left because LSM had become this "present evil age," and they have the nerve to condemn every other Christian in the body of Christ for far worse crimes than they have committed. (Romans 2.1-4)

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many of us left because LSM had become this "present evil age," and they have the nerve to condemn every other Christian in the body of Christ for far worse crimes than they have committed. (Romans 2.1-4)

Careful, Ohio. My dear friend Drake will accuse you of "slander."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Careful, Ohio. My dear friend Drake will accuse you of "slander."

Huh? I got some of this news from the Orange County Register.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think some members here who have not been with the Recovery for "30 or 40 years" are not taking what current members (Drake, myself) are saying seriously. Which really proves they are arguing from perceptions and encounters they had in the past, rather than how things are today.

I think some members here who live in isolated LC 's, knowing the LSM leadership only from long distance videos and highly edited books, really are arguing from grossly mistaken perceptions, rather than real life encounters with these men.

Ten years ago in the Great Lakes Area we watched them operate and saw their true colors. Their teachings on the oneness of the body were merely a farsical ruse to deceive the simple-minded. I watched them come into many LC's with their legal operatives, create wedges between the saints, instructing them to rebel against local eldership, work with dissidemts to file lawsuits, and in the end destroy the building work of God. Hundreds of godly men can attest to this.

One day LSM's wood, hay, and stubble works will be burnt.