The Unique Move of God

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is what Evangelical, Drake, and other LC adherents will never admit to -- their so-called "vision" really is an unwavering loyalty to Lee and his successors.

Remember all the talk about "we will never leave this way!"?

I remember Titus talking about "you've broken our family tradition!"

"Way?" "Tradition?" What if God tells you to take another way, or leave the family tradition? Oops, that means you've left "the vision"

One man's vision is another's dogma, and who can tell the difference? Well, we may not be able to tell, but we can know when either becomes divisive and sectarian. And that's what the Lord tells us to avoid. That's why generality and receiving are the best path. I remember when the LCM once taught that... long, long ago.

[Drake]

Igzy) "But I don't know what you are getting at with these questions. Perhaps you are trying to help me? That's fine. I have nothing to hide, fear or prove now, and I don't mind answering questions. But I'd like the discussion to be relevant to the subject matter. "

HI Igzy,

Lets clear the air on that. I am not trying to help you, neither do I seek to hurt you. I am trying to understand why two brothers who were likely contemporaries, heard the same messages, experienced the same church life, perhaps similar corporate living arrangements, may have even broke bread together could have interpreted the whole affair 180 degrees differently. Eventually one leaving bitter and angry convinced that the Devil tricked him into wasting so many years while the other grateful as having received a great spiritual treasure as from the Lord Himself!

You describe vision like a doctrine or some interpretation of scripture . That is one major difference between our experiences as relates to vision. I can only describe my experience as a type of visitation from the Lord. That guided me in many times and ways as it still does.

Another difference in our experiences is I never felt I could live up to the standard that others around me were so I never tried, never got my hopes up and didn't get anyone else's hopes up. If it wasn't the Lord in me it wasn't going to happen. You describe a pressure to aspire to a good brother standard and dreaded the arduous life of trying to live up to it. In this we shared a common realization , that is, achieving that standard is not possible using our own efforts. You tried with great effort, I didnt so much.

Igzy)"So I like for you to try to respond to my whole argument that telling people they can't leave your group is an abusive practice.

And also tell me: Who is responsible for my suffering? Just me? I accept some responsibility. I should have gotten Christian counseling. But I expect you are thinking that, well, if I hadn't had left I wouldn't have suffered.

I have never heard anyone at anytime ever tell anyone else that they can't leave the church life. Holding people, verbally or physically, against their will would be an abusive practice. People came and went all the time, sometimes several times.

Also, I would not tell you that your suffering would have been alleviated had you stayed. On the contrary, from your description you would've continued to suffer. If we ever had had the opportunity to fellowship back then I would have pleaded with you to forget trying to live up to that standard no matter who established it, you or someone else, and rather to just pray and enjoy the Lord together. Under the circumstances, you might have misunderstood my intentions even at that.

Drake

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Drake

I am trying to understand why two brothers who were likely contemporaries, heard the same messages, experienced the same church life, perhaps similar corporate living arrangements, may have even broke bread together could have interpreted the whole affair 180 degrees differently. Eventually one leaving bitter and angry convinced that the Devil tricked him into wasting so many years while the other grateful as having received a great spiritual treasure as from the Lord Himself!

You won't like the answer. But you can't just refute it because you don't like it.

The answer could be that one had his eyes and nose opened to the fog and garlic in which he had been befuddled for years, and realizing how others who had gone through the same awakening were treated by the leadership, could only be angry for at least some period of time. You can reply with some kind of psychological mumbo jumbo about how anger is your own fault, or fear is not real therefore should be ignored. But when you have been lead to believe that your eternal existence hinges on remaining true to something you are not completely sold on, what do you expect? And when it is discovered that it was a lie, what do you expect?

At least no one has gone postal over it yet. Not condoning such a thing. But the kind of chicanery that has gone on to fool God-fearing people into remaining in bondage to lies could be problematic if the right (or rather wrong) person suddenly wakes up to this kind of shenanigans.

As for the ones staying behind being "grateful as having received a great spiritual treasure as from the Lord Himself," I can only say that if they believe it is from the Lord, that is how they would describe it. Doesn't make it actually from the Lord.

Funny how the things that are treasured as from the Lord are things that make the LRC faithful be special Christians with special favor bestowed on them by God. Still looking for any evidence that there is such a thing. But it is part of the arsenal that keeps people from taking a second look at the problems. It is human nature to not want to accept that you can be wrong, and also to become snared in anything that grants special status — no matter how insignificant or even illusory that status is.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

Igzy)[B] I am trying to understand why two brothers who were likely contemporaries, heard the same messages, experienced the same church life, perhaps similar corporate living arrangements, may have even broke bread together could have interpreted the whole affair 180 degrees differently
...
I have never heard anyone at anytime ever tell anyone else that they can't leave the church life. Holding people, verbally or physically, against their will would be an abusive practice.

Well, I think you are missing the forest for the trees. My pain and resentment were caused by the LCM indoctrinating me with the belief that there was no legitimate way to go on with the Lord outside the LCM. Period. That's it. Thus the subject of this thread. If the problem had simply been that I didn't like the difficult LCM culture or wasn't up to it, then I just would have left and not looked back. But I was brainwashed into believing I was offending God by leaving. This caused me much pain.

That is the point that is relevant to this thread, not any other difficulty I had with the LCM.

I really don't know what to make of your claims that you never heard anyone say that leaving the LCM was wrong. That is like a long-time conservative claiming he didn't know conservatives wanted to cut taxes. Your naivete, if that's what it really is, is off the charts.

Let's be clear that I hear this taught time and time again, from the top to the bottom of the group. There can be no mistaking. Others here can bear witness to this too.

I heard Lee teach it. I heard him say that no one who has left the movement has been able to go on with the Lord. He said no one who left has become a "prevailing Christian," whatever that is. Like he would know. Did he have a magic mirror back in the 1970s so he could look into everyone's life and see what happened to them?

I heard Benson teach it. He said there was no way to go on with the Lord and nothing of value outside the movement.

To leave the LCM was to leave "God's best." That was the mantra. How would we know what was God's best anyway?

I heard it taught by our elders. One said, "If any of us had a way to leave, we would. But the Lord won't let us." His statement was meant to drive home the idea that though the movement was hard, there was no legitimate way to leave. This was the mentality that was drilled into us and this was the mentality we lived with.

When I told an elder I was close to I was leaving he accused me of going against my conscience.

Stories were told about people that left the movement and who died or suffered horrible tragedies, and the meaning was clear: Leave at the risk to your body and soul.

And I heard it many other ways.

There can be no mistaking about it. I don't know what planet you've been on for the last 40 years, but either you are in denial or incredibly ignorant. I don't know how else to say it. But your claim that the LCM did not teach that leaving the movement was effectively rebellion against God is about as ignorant a statement as I've ever heard by someone who claimed to know what he is talking about.

It was this indoctrination that caused me to suffer while I was in and after I left. It was wrong and it was abusive, as you have already acknowledged. The LCM needs to officially and publicly repent from this idea and offer to pay for counseling and other reparations for anyone hurt by it.

[Ohio]

Igzy: "So I like for you to try to respond to my whole argument that telling people they can't leave your group is an abusive practice.

And also tell me: Who is responsible for my suffering? Just me? I accept some responsibility. I should have gotten Christian counseling. But I expect you are thinking that, well, if I hadn't had left I wouldn't have suffered.

Originally Posted by Drake

I have never heard anyone at anytime ever tell anyone else that they can't leave the church life. Holding people, verbally or physically, against their will would be an abusive practice. People came and went all the time, sometimes several times.

Also, I would not tell you that your suffering would have been alleviated had you stayed. On the contrary, from your description you would've continued to suffer. If we ever had had the opportunity to fellowship back then I would have pleaded with you to forget trying to live up to that standard no matter who established it, you or someone else, and rather to just pray and enjoy the Lord together. Under the circumstances, you might have misunderstood my intentions even at that.

Drake

So ... I can also say this, "I have never heard anyone at anytime ever tell anyone else that they can't leave the church life."

Duh! Things were a little more subtle than that, don't you think? Aren't you just lawyering here? LC equivocations really make me nauseous.

Have you never heard the awful stories about those who left the LC? Got cancer of the throat for objecting to WL's ground of locality? Warnings about never going on with the Lord after leaving? Unable to be sanctified outside the recovery? Miss the Lord's blessings?

Sure you did!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So ... I can also say this, "I have never heard anyone at anytime ever tell anyone else that they can't leave the church life."

The funny thing is I did hear a leading brother say those very words.

"You can't leave the church!"


Beam me up, Mr. Mota!

[Drake]

Igzy) "I really don't know what to make of your claims that you never heard anyone say that leaving the LCM was wrong"

Hi Igzy.

There is a difference between telling someone they can't leave a group and telling them they are wrong to leave a group. One could be abuse, the other could just be concern for your soul.

In this thread I have sincerely tried to understand your view and how you might interpret things differently than I do. What were the differences in our experience, was it something we did differently, events, our circumstances, our backgrounds, or something neither of us have realized? At this point, I think we experienced pretty much the same things. You heard them one way, I heard them differently. You interpret them as someone brainwashing you, I interpret them as someone's caring and sharing the convictions of their beliefs. Same speaking, different interpretation.

In summary, we will likely never gain a full understanding of this matter or each other beyond what we have shared here. Still, I do not recognize the "dreadful" church life you describe, the abuse you claim, the brainwashing, etc. Rather, in my experience, through all these decades the church life has been a sweet visitation from the Lord. The brothers and sisters really are family in the richest sense. The leading brothers are servants dedicated to ministering Christ into others. In their speaking the Word has never been clearer, more open, or invigorating to me. The Spirit is guiding and directing and collaborating with a governing vision. Truth and Life are prevailing. Struggles? Certainly. Grace to overcome? Abundantly.

Is that unique? In my experience it is... absolutely. To you, it is not.

Thanks for the dialogue.

Drake

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

There is a difference between telling someone they can't leave a group and telling them they are wrong to leave a group. One could be abuse, the other could just be concern for your soul.

When we stand before the Lord, do you think he is going to buy that excuse, that "can't leave" and "wrong to leave" mean different things? I sure don't want to be the one copping that lame plea at the judgement seat. So knock yourself out with that one.

Good intentions only take one so far. By now the evidence has been in for years and the LCM is conveniently ignoring it. So there is no longer any excuse. At this point it's a matter of being in denial.

I doubt any objective witnesses buy your story either. So I guess you can continue kidding yourselves if you want to. What bothers me is that it just sets up another innocent who hasn't read this board to be damaged. That should bother you too. And I can't imagine why it doesn't.

Let me reiterate. God cares about people: not systems, not institutions, not moves. He's the one who left the flock to save one lamb. And I'm glad he did so to save this one. And you know what he said he would do to those of us who hurt one of his "little ones" (Matt 18:6). That's a warning we ALL need to take seriously.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Igzy) "I really don't know what to make of your claims that you never heard anyone say that leaving the LCM was wrong"

Hi Igzy.

There is a difference between telling someone they can't leave a group and telling them they are wrong to leave a group. One could be abuse, the other could just be concern for your soul.

In this thread I have sincerely tried to understand your view and how you might interpret things differently than I do. What were the differences in our experience, was it something we did differently, events, our circumstances, our backgrounds, or something neither of us have realized? At this point, I think we experienced pretty much the same things. You heard them one way, I heard them differently. You interpret them as someone brainwashing you, I interpret them as someone's caring and sharing the convictions of their beliefs. Same speaking, different interpretation.

In summary, we will likely never gain a full understanding of this matter or each other beyond what we have shared here. Still, I do not recognize the "dreadful" church life you describe, the abuse you claim, the brainwashing, etc. Rather, in my experience, through all these decades the church life has been a sweet visitation from the Lord. The brothers and sisters really are family in the richest sense. The leading brothers are servants dedicated to ministering Christ into others. In their speaking the Word has never been clearer, more open, or invigorating to me. The Spirit is guiding and directing and collaborating with a governing vision. Truth and Life are prevailing. Struggles? Certainly. Grace to overcome? Abundantly.

Is that unique? In my experience it is... absolutely. To you, it is not.

Thanks for the dialogue.

Drake

I also have had some heated discussions over this with Igzy. I think the difference between us is that he was in Austin and I was in Houston. If you read the detailed testimonies of the Barber's kid it gives a very different view of being in the the LRC from ours.

You say you were a contemporary of Igzy and might have broken bread with him, therefore we are contemporaries as well and it is highly likely that we also broke bread together.

When you read UntoHim's testimonies (he was from Orange county) it is quite clear that a local church that close to Anaheim had a different view of WL than one further away like Houston.

Ultimately I have concluded that the Local Churches were strongly influenced by the elders in that locality and that made a big difference. I was influenced by Ray G and Benson P. That apparently is a big difference from Austin and also from some of the Orange County locales.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The funny thing is I did hear a leading brother say those very words.

"You can't leave the church!"


Beam me up, Mr. Mota!

For me the constant drumbeat of divine retribution, spiced up with tall tales and horror stories of the supernatural, had a far more gripping and insidious effect on me.

As I was researching Brethren history in the years before my exodus, I discovered from the historian Wm. B. Neatby how Brethren Exclusives regularly used British "Bug Bears" to manipulate their members. That helped to expose the whole scheme to me.

Then I read all the sordid details, long hidden from LC membership, about Philip Lee at LSM, and worse, what his Dad did to destroy the reputations of those who spoke their conscience on behalf of God's children.

That completely released me from the Chinese "Boogey Man."

This is one area of Lee history that Drake refuses to address.

.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So ... I can also say this, "I have never heard anyone at anytime ever tell anyone else that they can't leave the church life."

Duh! Things were a little more subtle than that, don't you think? Aren't you just lawyering here? LC equivocations really make me nauseous.

Have you never heard the awful stories about those who left the LC? Got cancer of the throat for objecting to WL's ground of locality? Warnings about never going on with the Lord after leaving? Unable to be sanctified outside the recovery? Miss the Lord's blessings?

Sure you did!

Ohio,

there is a big difference between telling someone, say your child, "you can't leave the house", versus "don't go onto the road because you might get hit by a car". I am yet to see anyone be restrained or verbally or physically told they cannot leave church.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Ohio,

there is a big difference between telling someone, say your child, "you can't leave the house", versus "don't go onto the road because you might get hit by a car". I am yet to see anyone be restrained or verbally or physically told they cannot leave church.

You never get it Evangelical. You're clueless about LC life in the USA, especially 30-40 years ago.

Control and manipulation also goes both ways, telling members what to do and what not to do.

Reminds me of Lee speaking from the podium, "What me, I never control anyone, I can't even control a mosquito." Typical LC doublespeak.

I was only in the LC a short time, when the "Young Galilean" movement swept thru the LC's. What chaos! I can't imagine how many young people were ruined in that nonsense. One older brother told me directly, "You are in the Lord's army now, you will be told where you will move to." Forget about praying, seeking the Lord, or other such spirituality from "fallen Christianity."

[Evangelical]

I wasn't in the LC 30-40 years ago. But I don't think things are like that now.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

there is a big difference between telling someone, say your child, "you can't leave the house", versus "don't go onto the road because you might get hit by a car".

That's a rationalization. There was no evidence that leaving the LCM was dangerous or displeasing to God. It was a false fear created by ignorant fanatics. Oh, maybe they believed it. But eventually ignorance is not an excuse. Certainly by now it isn't. Mormons believe it's bad to leave the Mormon church. Does that make it okay for them to teach it?

A better analogy would be telling your kids they can't leave the house because the boogy-man will eat them alive once they step off the front porch. That's the "care" of a parent who has no business being a parent.

And as I said, by now the LCM should know better. They should make a public apology, a promise to change policy and other reparations.

At this point you guys are just in denial. Time to fess up. You'll feel better, trust me.

[Drake]

Igzy)"When we stand before the Lord..."

We agree on that and we also agree that there will be some unexpected surprises. Everything will be judged in His light.

Drake

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Drake

Igzy)"When we stand before the Lord..."

We agree on that and we also agree that there will be some unexpected surprises. Everything will be judged in His light.

Drake

His light is already here.