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[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sound more like a MINO, mugwump in name only.

An independent ... kind of like ole Bernie Sanders?

So no matter how much I try to not be part of both parties to you I still have be a dreaded liberal? Why bro Ohio? Why do you need liberals to hate? What's going on with that? You seem to even have to invent them in your head. What's going on with that?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So no matter how much I try to not be part of both parties to you I still have be a dreaded liberal? Why bro Ohio? Why do you need liberals to hate? What's going on with that? You seem to even have to invent them in your head. What's going on with that?

Your questions are really strange to me because for a long time I felt how did these ex-members of the LC do such a radical 180 shift? They now seem to have everything of the Bible and have nothing good to say about any Christian. Sorry bro, but I only ever hear the negative, and kind of reached my limit. And then you ask me why I hate liberals, while I have been asking for years why do you seem to hate Christians and conservatives?

I don't hate liberals, least of all you bro, in fact I rarely get into debates with them about politics. It's just too contentious. Take my friends and family -- they know that I don't incite "violence" over political views -- like so many of them do to each other. Also I cringe when I hear political views expressed in church settings.

But this sub-forum is different. Because I heard so much blowback over the years on this forum against God, the Bible, and all things Christian and/or conservative, I decided to respond, just in case some fair minded reader came along. You and zeek are at times like LC leaders -- you make enemies where there were none. I think zeek does it just to be nasty because he patronizes everyone. You, however, do it for laughs. ZNP, however, genuinely expresses his thought out views, which I may agree with or not, but I definitely learn from him, and am challenged in a healthy way.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your questions are really strange to me because for a long time I felt how did these ex-members of the LC do such a radical 180 shift? They now seem to have everything of the Bible and have nothing good to say about any Christian. Sorry bro, but I only ever hear the negative, and kind of reached my limit. And then you ask me why I hate liberals, while I have been asking for years why do you seem to hate Christians and conservatives?

I don't hate liberals, least of all you bro, in fact I rarely get into debates with them about politics. It's just too contentious. Take my friends and family -- they know that I don't incite "violence" over political views -- like so many of them do to each other. Also I cringe when I hear political views expressed in church settings.

But this sub-forum is different. Because I heard so much blowback over the years on this forum against God, the Bible, and all things Christian and/or conservative, I decided to respond, just in case some fair minded reader came along. You and zeek are at times like LC leaders -- you make enemies where there were none. I think zeek does it just to be nasty because he patronizes everyone. You, however, do it for laughs. ZNP, however, genuinely expresses his thought out views, which I may agree with or not, but I definitely learn from him, and am challenged in a healthy way.

You nasty liberal lover!

[awareness]

Thanks for the honest and straight up reply.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your questions are really strange to me because for a long time I felt how did these ex-members of the LC do such a radical 180 shift? They now seem to have everything of the Bible and have nothing good to say about any Christian.

Why is that strange? In the church we were taught Christianity was Christless, and many worse things. Did you fail to get that memo?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry bro, but I only ever hear the negative, and kind of reached my limit. And then you ask me why I hate liberals, while I have been asking for years why do you seem to hate Christians and conservatives?

I pick on Christians so much because I feel that first I was bamboozled by my cradle religion (SBC) and then by the local church. Apparently you don't feel bamboozled by either your cradle religion or the local church. Why you left the local church and are on a forum of disgruntled exmembers is beyond me ... 'cept you prolly got tired of being abused by them. We must be better abusers. haha (laughter). If not we should try harder.

And while I'm not near as partisan as you seem to be (you seem to be more like Ann Coulter and her book "Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America"), I pick on conservatives because, the tack that sticks up gets the hammer. And why pick on the liberals? They are their own worst enemy. Look what they did? They pushed Bernie out in favor of the Hildabeast. There's no need to point out such stupidity. It speaks for itself. They put Trump in charge. You should thank them.

But aren't there both good and bad in both parties?

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't hate liberals, least of all you bro, in fact I rarely get into debates with them about politics. It's just too contentious.
Take my friends and family . . .

My sister, a Yellowdog Democrat, is that way with our family. She won't talk politics with them. I gets too heated. I'm a mugwump, I don't like either party, and so don't have that problem. I'm with them when they are critical of democrats. And I pick on my sister so much she don't want me to talk politics. For eight years I really enjoyed bringing up Obama's flaws. My sister hated it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Also I cringe when I hear political views expressed in church settings.

Oh, my. my ... so you don't support Trump's EO on preachers preaching politics? But I think Trump did atheists a big favor. And they are so stupid they need all the help they can get. They don't even realize that the best thing that could happen to their movement is for the wall of separation between church and state to be taken down. Just look at Europe, for example.

Originally Posted by Ohio

But this sub-forum is different. Because I heard so much blowback over the years on this forum against God, the Bible, and all things Christian and/or conservative, I decided to respond, just in case some fair minded reader came along.

What constitutes a fair minded person to you?

You and zeek are at times like LC leaders

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think zeek does it just to be nasty because he patronizes everyone.

The both of you can be pretty nasty toward each other. Stop it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

You, however, do it for laughs.

And there's plenty to laugh at, in religion and politics. Except in this last election. Both parties -- the Hildabeast and Drumpf -- are no laughing matter. Our comedians, however, sure are having a heyday ... way more than the days of Dubya. I didn't like him back then, but he sure looks pretty good about now.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

What constitutes a fair minded person to you?

Well let's give a few examples:

If you describe Trump as "childish" that is not fair minded, I would prefer "impulsive".

If you claim that Trump's reference to Clapper was a lie that is not fair minded, I would prefer disingenuous.

If you are calling for Trump's impeachment I think that is premature, at this point I would prefer the claim that "there is room for improvement".

If you are rolling your eyes when they tell you there was no concerted effort to pin the Comey firing on the Asst AG that is not fair, I think we should take the administration at its word that they were incompetent.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well let's give a few examples:

If you describe Trump as "childish" that is not fair minded, I would prefer "impulsive".

If you claim that Trump's reference to Clapper was a lie that is not fair minded, I would prefer disingenuous.

If you are calling for Trump's impeachment I think that is premature, at this point I would prefer the claim that "there is room for improvement".

If you are rolling your eyes when they tell you there was no concerted effort to pin the Comey firing on the Asst AG that is not fair, I think we should take the administration at its word that they were incompetent.

Philip Mudd, a former counterterrorism official at the FBI and CIA scoffed: “You can’t take this seriously. You feel like you’ve got to give the president of the United States a pacifier and a rattle and put him in the crib.”

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Philip Mudd, a former counterterrorism official at the FBI and CIA scoffed: “You can’t take this seriously. You feel like you’ve got to give the president of the United States a pacifier and a rattle and put him in the crib.”

He is frustrated but that is the wrong attitude. James said to "count it all joy" -- that is the right attitude. Understand that Trump and his administration will perfect your patience, and you can't be a mature Christian if you are not patient. Think of the irony of calling him a baby if your not fully mature. Very often you see these guys who are questioning the Trump communication team drop their jaw when they see something that appears as a blatant lie (like saying they weren't trying to pin the Comey firing on the assistant AG). But James says that if you need wisdom to deal with the trial, then ask.

So I think this is a good example of the error I am talking about which is not helpful. Be patient. Trump has only been president for about 100 days and we already may have evidence of obstruction of justice (a valid basis for impeachment), the pressure for the tax returns has intensified while Trump appears to be more and more desperate. If those tax returns turn up a very close tie to Russian financing it would reveal that Trump is a liar based on his Tweet disavowing any connection at all. That would also be a very strong basis for impeachment. Because of all this a good 65% of Americans do not trust Trump, are concerned about his ties to Russia and tax returns, so this provides a political mandate. Finally, in June there is a key election in Georgia. If the democrat wins you will see a defection from Trump by those in the Republican party that are concerned about the midterm elections.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks for the honest and straight up reply.

Why is that strange? In the church we were taught Christianity was Christless, and many worse things. Did you fail to get that memo?

I pick on Christians so much because I feel that first I was bamboozled by my cradle religion (SBC) and then by the local church. Apparently you don't feel bamboozled by either your cradle religion or the local church. Why you left the local church and are on a forum of disgruntled exmembers is beyond me ... 'cept you prolly got tired of being abused by them. We must be better abusers. haha (laughter). If not we should try harder.

What constitutes a fair minded person to you?

A fair-minded person, in our context here, can differentiate between a few bad examples and the whole. What you do is what generally defines bigotry -- project the failures of a few upon the whole.

No fair-minded person would castigate every LC-er solely for what Mel Porter did to you back in the chaotic 80's. This is why I constantly differentiate between the actions of leaders at LSM and the typical LC members. Your "unbalanced" views leave no room for differentiation, and consequently you seem unable to find anything good from your time in the SBC or TLR. That is not healthy bro!

Then you set out to "prove" your thesis on a regular basis. For example, Ohio is an evangelist who does not condemn Trump for his policies, and yet Trump is a "known" misogynist, xenophobic, racist, abusive, and immoral billionaire, therefore all evangelicals are also misogynist, xenophobic, racist, abusive, and immoral. That is the message I hear on this thread.

Don't you think that is just a little too extreme?

Also, W. Lee did teach that "all Christianity was Christless" in the 1976 summer Revelations training. Forty years ago I accepted that and it had a negative impact on me. But I also heard in parochial school that Lutherans can't go to heaven. So what?!? Do we still cling to those archaic generalizations? Are we taking that nonsense to our graves? To be honest, my wife and I are slowly becoming friends with our Catholic and Protestant neighbors because we have dropped that old junk we heard in our youth.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And while I'm not near as partisan as you seem to be (you seem to be more like Ann Coulter and her book "Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America"), I pick on conservatives because, the tack that sticks up gets the hammer. And why pick on the liberals? They are their own worst enemy. Look what they did? They pushed Bernie out in favor of the Hildabeast. There's no need to point out such stupidity. It speaks for itself. They put Trump in charge. You should thank them.

But aren't there both good and bad in both parties?

"Good" people could never support the wholesale slaughter of the totally innocent and defenseless unborn.

That is what turned me off to liberals in the Democratic Party in 1973.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

"Good" people could never support the wholesale slaughter of the totally innocent and defenseless unborn.

That is what turned me off to liberals in the Democratic Party in 1973.

So to you it all hangs on abortion? But I know liberals that agree with you. My yellowdog sister for example. She disagrees with abortion.

But she's a woman, and believes that women have sovereignty over their own bodies, and men nor the government should make such an important decision as to whether to abort or not.

In short, if men disagree with abortion let them keep it in their pants, or use some kind of birth control. It does take men to create the problem. And then, when it's done, it's men that think they should control the woman/women.

Good luck with that. Maybe you can, but, I've never been able to control women.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

So to you it all hangs on abortion? But I know liberals that agree with you. My yellowdog sister for example. She disagrees with abortion.

But she's a woman, and believes that women have sovereignty over their own bodies, and men nor the government should make such an important decision as to whether to abort or not.

In short, if men disagree with abortion let them keep it in their pants, or use some kind of birth control. It does take men to create the problem. And then, when it's done, it's men that think they should control the woman/women.

Good luck with that. Maybe you can, but, I've never been able to control women.

Why is this?

If the US is a democracy then majority rules should still have an impact on policy, not 9 Supreme court justices.

I have thought about this issue for years and have determined that the solution is quite simple, the US constitution does not say anything about it, therefore it should be left up to the States. If the Supreme court were honest they would say that they did not have jurisdiction. As a result some states would legalize and some would make it illegal and others would have a variety of restrictions. Then it would be very easy to measure how a State's policy impacts the health and welfare of the people. Then, 44 years later, you would have a very clear evidence as to how each policy will impact your people and State. Instead because of Blackmun's ruling we have a festering, puss wound that is dividing this country 44 years later.

But that isn't what happened. Instead Blackmun's ruling is to put your hands over your eyes and see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil.

That policy has been a total and complete failure. We don't want, need or authorize the Supreme court to make laws and ignore the US constitution.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why is this?

If the US is a democracy then majority rules should still have an impact on policy, not 9 Supreme court justices.

I have thought about this issue for years and have determined that the solution is quite simple, the US constitution does not say anything about it, therefore it should be left up to the States. If the Supreme court were honest they would say that they did not have jurisdiction. As a result some states would legalize and some would make it illegal and others would have a variety of restrictions. Then it would be very easy to measure how a State's policy impacts the health and welfare of the people. Then, 44 years later, you would have a very clear evidence as to how each policy will impact your people and State. Instead because of Blackmun's ruling we have a festering, puss wound that is dividing this country 44 years later.

But that isn't what happened. Instead Blackmun's ruling is to put your hands over your eyes and see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil.

That policy has been a total and complete failure. We don't want, need or authorize the Supreme court to make laws and ignore the US constitution.

Totally agree. It has been said that Roe was the worst piece of juris prudence in our history. That liberal scotus is guilty of millions of murders.

Next comes the redefinition of marriage.

The real difference between liberals and conservatives is on display for all to see. Pro-life marches and protests have been held for 44 years without a single case of violence. Compare that to campus snowflakes, black lives matter, etc.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Instead because of Blackmun's ruling we have a festering, puss wound that is dividing this country 44 years later.

Would you mind changing the wording here?

You have until 6.45 am tomorrow.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Instead because of Blackmun's ruling we have a festering, puss wound that is dividing this country 44 years later.

Somewhere Freud is smiling.

[Sorry Freud - MOTA]

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So to you it all hangs on abortion? But I know liberals that agree with you. My yellowdog sister for example. She disagrees with abortion.

But she's a woman, and believes that women have sovereignty over their own bodies, and men nor the government should make such an important decision as to whether to abort or not.

In short, if men disagree with abortion let them keep it in their pants, or use some kind of birth control. It does take men to create the problem. And then, when it's done, it's men that think they should control the woman/women.

Good luck with that. Maybe you can, but, I've never been able to control women.

For me the 1st and 2nd Amend rights are similar -- you can do anything you want with your own body or your own guns -- until someone else gets hurt. That's when your rights stop. Except in the case of self-defense. So is that the excuse women use? "The baby was killing me, so I killed it in self-defense." Nonsense, abortion is murder, plain and simple, murder for convenience.

Your sister's (and she is not alone) argument is bogus. Full of stereotypes. Don't the unborn, 50% of whom are women, have rights too? And what about all the pro-life women who want to change the laws to protect the unborn?

What if the mothers of all of these pro-abortion women felt the same as they do???