It's a Sham

[askseek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

F. Roy Coad basically said that with Darby there was so much good to speak of, and yet so much more wrong.

After seeing the sad plight of so many ex-members who had forsaken the faith, I decided a better understanding of Lee for ex-members was to identify all the sources of leaven in his ministry. Like how the Apostle Paul admonishes us to "prove the will of God," and to "test all things, hold on to the good." Jesus Himself counseled the disciples not to reject the entire O.T. dispensation, but to beware of the "leaven of the Pharisees," and to "search the scriptures" because they always point to Christ.

For example, I would never reject the worship of God by calling on the name of the Lord. The Bible and Christian history is filled with the record of other men of God who have done so. But the public show we witnessed of "let's all stand and call on the Lord 5 times" must be utterly discarded. Like the Lord's word about the Pharisee praying in public to make show, we should all go to our "closet." It's not some "thing" to do. After visiting numerous non-LC churches, I learned that many dear believers call on the Lord from the heart, yet without fanfare.

So let me ask, "who has got the real thing?"

That's a good example about calling but not in a repetitious or even out loud manner. Similar to what I just posted about the nuance of "ministry" so too there can be different ways of what "calling on the name" could mean and a variety of practice. I don't recall anywhere in the NT it's spelled out in a "do this" sort of way except Jesus instructing the disciples to "pray in this manner". And it's the famous "Our Father" prayer, short and to-the-point because "He already knows what you need before you ask him." It's refreshing for me to read that.

My question for you is regarding "leaven" in Witness Lee's teaching, what about "a little leaven leavens the whole lump"? At this point I'm in a detox frame of mind and thus not open to the teachings of WL, including RcV with its non-optional outlines. But I could see how others may want to pick and choose.

As for your question of the real thing... if you find out please let me know

[askseek]

And thanks aron for several informative posts that really drove the point home.

But thankfully you also provided some healthy contrast, like in #11:
Jesus repeatedly said that the safe position is to take the least position. Those who preemptively elevate themselves above their station get put down.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by askseek

That's a good example about calling but not in a repetitious or even out loud manner. Similar to what I just posted about the nuance of "ministry" so too there can be different ways of what "calling on the name" could mean and a variety of practice. I don't recall anywhere in the NT it's spelled out in a "do this" sort of way except Jesus instructing the disciples to "pray in this manner". And it's the famous "Our Father" prayer, short and to-the-point because "He already knows what you need before you ask him." It's refreshing for me to read that.

My question for you is regarding "leaven" in Witness Lee's teaching, what about "a little leaven leavens the whole lump"? At this point I'm in a detox frame of mind and thus not open to the teachings of WL, including RcV with its non-optional outlines. But I could see how others may want to pick and choose.

As for your question of the real thing... if you find out please let me know

The "real thing" is Jesus. Sounds passe, but there's no other simple answer.

askseek, if you seek Him, you will find Him. We have His word about that.

If we create performance out of worship, and lives filled with regulations, then we will feel caged up, and long for freedom. LC religious formulas did more damage than good.

Yes, the leaven leavens the whole lump, but it can also be purged out. I gave an example of calling the Lord's name. I have successfully purged out the leaven, without discarding the lump. I felt it was extremely worthwhile to do this in order to keep my love for Jesus.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The "real thing" is Jesus. Sounds passe, but there's no other simple answer.

askseek, if you seek Him, you will find Him. We have His word about that.

If we create performance out of worship, and lives filled with regulations, then we will feel caged up, and long for freedom. LC religious formulas did more damage than good.

Yes, the leaven leavens the whole lump, but it can also be purged out. I gave an example of calling the Lord's name. I have successfully purged out the leaven, without discarding the lump. I felt it was extremely worthwhile to do this in order to keep my love for Jesus.

You can't blame the Recovery or Witness Lee for your failure to use your spirit when calling on the name of the Lord, or approaching this in a religious way. In the recovery there has never been a time when calling on the Lord was stated to be a religious ritual, neither is it stated as such in all of Witness Lee's writings. That is your interpretation of the practice because you were under the grip of a religious spirit yourself.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You can't blame the Recovery or Witness Lee for your failure to use your spirit when calling on the name of the Lord, or approaching this in a religious way. In the recovery there has never been a time when calling on the Lord was stated to be a religious ritual, neither is it stated as such in all of Witness Lee's writings. That is your interpretation of the practice because you were under the grip of a religious spirit yourself.

Your post is a sham.

The ministry of Witness Lee has a long history of always blaming others for his own failed programs and practices.

Witness Lee had the audacity to declare that those who lost their life savings in that Daystar luxury motor home debacle had also lost their spiritual virginity. Though LSM went on to possess millions in cash with vast real estate holdings, they never went back to make right all the money they swindled.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your post is a sham.

The ministry of Witness Lee has a long history of always blaming others for his own failed programs and practices.

Witness Lee had the audacity to declare that those who lost their life savings in that Daystar luxury motor home debacle had also lost their spiritual virginity. Though LSM went on to possess millions in cash with vast real estate holdings, they never went back to make right all the money they swindled.

I don't see what Daystar has to do with prayer.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't see what Daystar has to do with prayer.

The context is BLAMING. In that context, there is a connection.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The context is BLAMING. In that context, there is a connection.

You feel justified in blaming Witness Lee for not praying properly. I get it.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I don't see what Daystar has to do with prayer.

It's about money.
See post #79 from the link below.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...hlight=Daystar

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hope

No one was the same after Daystar. WL has said that the recovery lost its virginity. At least there was a loss of the Lord’s presence and the glow that had been with many began to fade. The simplicity and purity was gone. LSM became a business. Fees were charged for conferences. Some who served full time began to receive a salary. Churches, elders and saints began to be evaluated based on their “usefulness.” The push for “good material” began. We had a call for the gospel song that had a line that went, “To the beaches, the parks or where ever we may.” This song ceased to be sung. The highways and byways were replaced with go the campus and bring in the good material. So. California was never the same in spite of great effort to recapture the era of blessing and glory.

All the evidence from witnesses says that WL and LSM are all about business. The business of making money peddling the word of God.

[askseek]

Originally Posted by Terry

It's about money.
See post #79 from the link below.

Thanks for the link, Terry. I went and added all of Don Rutledge's insider stories from that thread (several posts) to the excerpt thread for ease of access:

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...8779#post58779

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You can't blame the Recovery or Witness Lee for your failure to use your spirit when calling on the name of the Lord, or approaching this in a religious way. In the recovery there has never been a time when calling on the Lord was stated to be a religious ritual, neither is it stated as such in all of Witness Lee's writings. That is your interpretation of the practice because you were under the grip of a religious spirit yourself.

Evangelical, your judgmentalism is showing.