A Woman of Chayil: Far Above Rubies by Jane Carole Anderson

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

With such a background, the church of God often needs a healthy counter-ministry, with the pendulum swinging the other direction, to bring us into balance. The apostle Paul also brought such balance in his ministry, in contrast to the Judaizers coming from headquarters, who attempted to bring the church under subjection, using the same techniques used by Nee and Lee, and the same "spiritual authority" doctrines based on Moses.

While I generally agree with what you have said, I am not sure that a pendulum swinging is the way it would be according to scripture. Rather than just going the opposite way, the answer should be to go the right way, even if that is at the bottom of a pendulum's swing. Not saying that there are not true opposites to arrive at in some cases, but not in all cases. When we speak so broadly, it seems that just doing a pendulum swing is an opportunity to miss things to the other extreme and invite the return of the original extreme that we fought against.

In all of this there is something that neither elevates nor diminishes any of God's people. And that is the way of loving God, neighbor, and one another. It changes the gender fights into nothings. It turns authority into the job of a true servant. And so on. Neither of those are on the other side of the pendulum. They are in a different approach to the whole thing. The one that is actually in the Bible.

[OBW]

Nell,

There is a general problem with this discussion. To be of any real value, everyone involved would need to read the entire book (which many will not have the time or will to do). And without that, much of this is missing the support for the positions taken.

For example, you posted (and linked) portions about "lemon translations" yet I have found nothing in either that describes what is wrong with the translations that are there other than a general statement that they are gender biased. Saying it is gender biased does not make it so. There needs to be something supporting that. It may be in the book. But I have not found it in the parts supplied here. So if I was needing to be convinced, I would be finding nothing to help me change my mind about things.

And I assume that this is why the thread is here. It may be contrary to your normal way of approaching things, but if you want to make that leap, try finding the parts that make the reasons clear, not just the positions. There may be a lot of emotion and passion in this. But to make a case, it still needs solid facts so that a reasonable person can have something to consider for purposes of changing their mind.

Don't anyone assume that I am pushing back at the substance of the book or its topic. I am not.

[UntoHim]

I don't think everyone needs to read the whole book for Nell or anyone else to address the various mistranslations in a piecemeal fashion. As a matter of fact, I think this is the best way to address such large issues on a public forum. I don't know if you read the PDF that Nell posted, but it's a real good summation, and there is enough in this one portion to get us off the ground.

I personally have never seriously considered this view:

There were no female members on early Bible translation committees, so it was easy for Satan to use innate male bias to influence the translations of verses that pertained to women’s roles. Historically, females have not been afforded the same access to education as males; so, even if men had desired the presence and input of women on their translation committees, at the time the Bible was being translated, there was no pool of women Bible scholars from which to select. Regardless of the reason why women were absent from translation committees, the simple fact remains: The female voice and perspective were not present in Bible translation efforts. Females would have been able to point out and challenge any translations pertaining to women that displayed male bias, something men would not be able to recognize easily. The absence of female input provides a rational explanation for why seven somewhat difficult to translate and interpret Bible passages in the New Testament stand out as anomalies among the more numerous grape passages.

In due time, I think Nell will get us into the individual "lemon" passages, but I think this might be enough for us to get the discussion going.
-

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I don't think everyone needs to read the whole book for Nell or anyone else to address the various mistranslations in a piecemeal fashion. As a matter of fact, I think this is the best way to address such large issues on a public forum. I don't know if you read the PDF that Nell posted, but it's a real good summation, and there is enough in this one portion to get us off the ground.

I personally have never seriously considered this view:


In due time, I think Nell will get us into the individual "lemon" passages, but I think this might be enough for us to get the discussion going.
-

What if the Bible had been translated by an all female translation committee? Would we be discussing different "lemon translations" that reflected a female gender bias that men would like to see revisited and corrected when appropriate?

The goal of the translators is to "get it right" without bias. K. Bushnell discusses this in her book "God's Word to Women."

Nell

[Evangelical]

The authors of the original Greek or Hebrew texts were all male. Next will be the LGBT community and Muslims wanting a place on the bible translation committee. These are all part of a liberal and populist agenda like we see on TV i.e. there must be one asian, one black, one hispanic, one muslim, and one LGBT person in every thing otherwise it is considered not "fair" or "equality".

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The authors of the original Greek or Hebrew texts were all male. Next will be the LGBT community and Muslims wanting a place on the bible translation committee. These are all part of a liberal and populist agenda like we see on TV i.e. there must be one asian, one black, one hispanic, one muslim, and one LGBT person in every thing otherwise it is considered not "fair" or "equality".

Needless to say, Evangelical is a white male.

[OBW]

Needless to say, Evangelical is a white male.

While the bulk of Evangelical's post was truly pathetic, it is true that the writers were all male (though not many of them "white" in the Anglo-European sense of the word).

So if we are to take the Bible as the word of God, then unless we want to rethink the meaning of inerrancy we are stuck with what those men wrote.

I am willing to entertain a Bible that is fully authoritative in terms of the God it reveals that is written by men who write within the ethos and prejudices of the day. They speak of utterly destroying an enemy when they really mean that they won handily and left the survivors running for the borders. That is not open season for dismissing anything. But it eliminates the notion that there are deep spiritual truths in every phrase of the scripture. Or that anything particular is intended as some kind of permanent rule for all time. That every story is full of metaphorical nuggets to be mined like silver and gold.

Do you read Genesis 1 and conclude that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days. Or are you impressed that God created the heavens and the earth in some way that could only be described in this limited way?

When a passage says that a day is like 1,000 years to God, is it a statement of actually relative time to apply like a formula, or is it a statement of the irrelevance of time to God?

What are we reading the Bible to find?

If our primary commands are to love God, love our neighbor as ourselves, and to love one another as Christ as loved us. If our edict for leadership is serving others and washing their feet. If . . . so many good examples. If these, then how do we find anyone to have a forced position of subservience? For any purpose?

Are we just proof-texting?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The authors of the original Greek or Hebrew texts were all male. Next will be the LGBT community and Muslims wanting a place on the bible translation committee. These are all part of a liberal and populist agenda like we see on TV i.e. there must be one asian, one black, one hispanic, one muslim, and one LGBT person in every thing otherwise it is considered not "fair" or "equality".

This is bait.

[UntoHim]

Evangelical,
When the next widely accepted translation of the Judaeo-Christian scriptures by a committee of LGBT or Muslim folks comes out, I'll be sure to let you do the first review, OK big guy?

In the meantime, I will thank you in advance to not post any more racist or insensitive things on our forum. I'm not sure what the sex, nationality or race was of the translators of Revelation 7:9, but here goes anyway: "a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages". This is they way things are going to end for eternity....better get used to it now.

I haven't had my first cup of coffee yet, so don't hold me to any of this.....

First to question God: Adam - Male
First to murder: Cain - Male
First to get drunk: Noah - Male
First to commit sexual sin: Sodom and Gomorrah - Males
First to murder to take another person's spouse: David - Male
(shall I go on?)
--------------------------------------------------------
First to suffer consequence of the Fall: Eve - A Woman
First recorded heroes to save the Jewish people: Women (gave birth before Egyptians could kill Hebrew babies)
First recorded single hero to save the Jewish people: Esther - A Woman
First to the empty tomb of Jesus: Mary - A Woman
First ex-Local Churcher to write a book helping former members: Jane Anderson - A Woman
-

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

Nell,

There is a general problem with this discussion. To be of any real value, everyone involved would need to read the entire book (which many will not have the time or will to do). And without that, much of this is missing the support for the positions taken.

For example, you posted (and linked) portions about "lemon translations" yet I have found nothing in either that describes what is wrong with the translations that are there other than a general statement that they are gender biased. Saying it is gender biased does not make it so. There needs to be something supporting that. It may be in the book. But I have not found it in the parts supplied here. So if I was needing to be convinced, I would be finding nothing to help me change my mind about things.

And I assume that this is why the thread is here. It may be contrary to your normal way of approaching things, but if you want to make that leap, try finding the parts that make the reasons clear, not just the positions. There may be a lot of emotion and passion in this. But to make a case, it still needs solid facts so that a reasonable person can have something to consider for purposes of changing their mind.

Don't anyone assume that I am pushing back at the substance of the book or its topic. I am not.

OBW,

You are correct. The "lemon translations" are covered in the book in detail. My post and Unto's post passed each other in cyber space. I said the same thing he said (great minds) so I edited this one. I am getting Gen. 3:16 ready. Meanwhile, I posted all the lemons.

Thanks---
Nell

[Nell]

Old Testament: (1)
Genesis 3:16 (NIV)
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

New Testament: (7)
1 Corinthians 11:1–16 (NIV)
1 Follow my example as I follow the example of Christ.
2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

7 A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

1 Corinthians 14:29–40
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

34 Women[a] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[b]

36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.[c]

39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

Ephesians 5:22–24
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Colossians 3:18
18 Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:8–15
8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Titus 2:3–5
3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God

1 Peter 3:1–2
3 Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.