A Woman of Chayil: Far Above Rubies by Jane Carole Anderson

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

Not very astute. In this verse, God is saying that the result of the curse is that a woman will tend to desire for her man and that fact will make her tend to be subservient to keep things "right." I do not see that as a declaration of the right of man to rule over woman.

Uh oh! That's not what my bible commentaries say! I'm a bible believing Christian who reads and studies the non-Lee/Nee bible commentaries and I'm not even using Lee/Nee at this point.

Sometimes I like to consider Jewish beliefs in this matter, particularly where it concerns translation of the old testament. Who can argue against a solid hebrew interpretation?

In doing so, I have found that the phrase rendered "rule over" in our English translations, means:

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/4910.htm

mashal: to rule, have dominion, reign
Original Word: מָשַׁל
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: mashal
Phonetic Spelling: (maw-shal')
Short Definition: rule
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to rule, have dominion, reign
NASB Translation
dominion (1), gain control (1), govern (1), had charge (1), have authority (1), master (1), obtain dominion (1), really going to rule (1), rule (27), ruled (5), ruler (18), ruler's (2), rulers (6), rules (9), ruling (3), wielded (1).


Uh oh, someone's wrong again!

There is "..strong proof that everyman rules over his wife – no matter who she is"
see:

http://daattorah.blogspot.com.au/201...ed-by-her.html


But is it my fault that I believe what the Bible says and most commentaries say? Here's an interesting fact - the KJV Bible inserted the word "shall", so it says "shall rule over". This has turned the meaning of the passage into a decree or command that man must rule over his wife because she cannot be trusted. The author of the book should probably focus on a better bible translation, a KJV for women or something like that. I know! the Queen Jane Version. Very hard to re-write history and long-standing bible translations.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Very hard to re-write history and long-standing bible translations.

Really?!? That's not what the RecV editors thought. "Here a little, there a little. . ." Sometimes,"There a lot."

[Nell]

Originally Posted by aron

Really?!? That's not what the RecV editors thought. "Here a little, there a little. . ." Sometimes,"There a lot."

In addition, I believe that the original Hebrew text is authoritative over any translation or commentaries. The credibility of any translation can only be determined by its faithfulness to the original text, but even at that, Jeremiah told us that in at least one instance, the scribes in Jer. 8 made God's word into a lie:

7 “Even the stork in the sky Knows her seasons;
And the turtledove and the swift and the thrush Observe the time of their [b]migration;
But My people do not know The ordinance of the Lord.]
8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of the Lord is with us’?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes. Has made it into a lie.
9 “The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught;
Behold, they have rejected the word of the Lord, And what kind of wisdom do they have? NASB

There is no reason today to question the integrity of the translators. If I were a translator of the original Hebrew text of the Bible, God's word, I would rather have someone check my work and find any mistakes I might make. The work is too important to risk not getting it right.

Nell

[Nell]

From chapter 2 of a A Woman of Chayil:


The Bible gives us a glimpse of what happened in the universe before God created man. It also gives us clues to the reason for Satan’s covert warfare against mankind. Long, long, long before man was created, Lucifer, the supreme archangel, rebelled and tried to usurp God’s throne (Ezek. 28). After this, he became known as the devil or Satan. He is also referred to as the prince of the power of the air (Eph. 2:2), the prince of devils (Matt. 9:34, 12:24; Mark 3:22), and the prince of this world (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11).

In the following verse, the Bible alludes to a background problem on earth at the time God created mankind:

Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” (Gen. 1:28, NKJV).

The word, “subdue,” in this verse tells us that something on the earth was not right. One can deduce from what happened to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden that Satan was at the root of the un-subdued situation on earth. His sneaky entrance into the Garden of Eden and his subtle trickery show us that he was on earth in rebellion against God’s authority, and he was carrying out his own agenda.

Authority and Freedom

The Bible tells us that God, who is love, possesses all authority and power. He reigns over and is in control of all things, in all time and in all places. He also possesses all knowledge and wisdom. At the end of time, He will judge every human being, and His judgment will stand.

No one can take God’s power or authority from Him. They are His to share with others as He sees fit according to His wisdom. Satan’s initial conflict with God was over authority—who would possess it and who would be in control. Satan wasn’t satisfied with what God had given him, so he grasped for more, wanting to be like God. In essence, he wanted to possess all God’s authority and power so he could do whatever he wanted. Satan’s title, “ruler of this world,” indicates two things: (1) at some point before Lucifer fell, God gave him a measure of authority and power, and (2) his realm of authority included the earth. We know that Satan retained this authority over the world after his fall because Jesus referred to him as the “prince of this world.” This title is used in the account of the devil tempting Jesus in the wilderness. At that time, Satan offered to give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory if Jesus would fall down and worship him. Jesus sent him packing with a few choice words of truth; but, what is noteworthy in that scene is that Jesus did not challenge his right to make the offer or his ability to deliver on it. Jesus’ silence concerning this appears to be an acknowledgement that the devil was rightfully in possession of the kingdoms of this world and that they were his to offer.

It is not easy to talk about authority because we have a built-in lexicon with respect to this word that is different from God’s. It is critical for us to recognize that the meanings we naturally give to the word “authority” and to other similar words such as “head,” “rule,” and “lord” do not match God’s meaning. Because of our faulty and inaccurate understanding of what true authority really is, and of how it works, we misunderstand certain Bible passages and misapply them. If we wish to understand such passages correctly, we need to change our definition and understanding of authority so that our built-in lexicon matches God’s.

In this writing, I will call our natural understanding of authority—that which matches the devil’s practice and use of authority—“counterfeit authority.” Until we ask the Lord to renew our minds to properly understand what He means by authority, we will not be able to understand the meaning God intends in Scriptures which use authority words such as “head,” “rule,” “lord,” “dominion,” “kingdom,” “submission,” and “obedience.” Instead, we will think wrongly about such Scriptures, and we will have wrong behavior as a result (Matt. 20:25, Mark 10:42, Luke 22:25).

The difference between true authority and counterfeit authority is determined by how it is used, or more precisely, by who is using it. When God uses His authority, because He is love, He exercises it in love. He loves the party on the receiving end of His authority, and He wisely uses His authority for their highest good. His use of authority is governed by His righteousness. He never does anything that is wrong. Whatever He does results in righteousness and peace.

When Satan uses authority (that which God gave him), he exercises it without love because he has no love. He does not love the party on the receiving end; and, what he does, he does for himself with his own benefit in view. He does not care for what is right, and he does what is wrong. Whatever He does produces unrighteousness and takes away peace. This is a condition produced by rebellion from God. Satan’s counterfeit authority is fundamentally self-serving. It is a top-down hierarchical authority that dominates all who are below the topmost party in the hierarchy. Satan uses beings, both spiritual and human, in this kind of hierarchical system to carry out his evil purposes (Eph. 4:14). He is the party who is actually at the top of every hierarchy, but he chooses to stay hidden in the background as much as possible and work by trickery and deceit. His intent is to violate and take away people’s freedom. Through his agents, he exercises either some form of overt, coercive, forceful control or some form of subtle, manipulative control. Counterfeit authority is always for the benefit of the party at the top in his war against God—the prince of this world. It will always have evidence of unrighteousness.

Among Christians, Satan has mastered the art of using word trickery to disguise counterfeit authority to the degree that it can be at work right under believers’ noses in the name of God, bearing the label of the authority of God, and they cannot see it for what it really is. Satan, who wants to be God, has been able, time and again, to trick God’s people into serving him and his agenda. He has been successful in causing believers to think that top-down, ruling, controlling, and freedom-robbing authority is God’s authority and that believers need to submit to their leaders’ directions without question. Examples abound in Christian history of Satan having worked in this way to get Christians to do his anti-God bidding. Well-known examples would be the Inquisition and the Crusades. Any Christian leadership which exercises authoritative control over God’s people and does not respect their freedom and right to make their own decisions before God falls into this category. Such deceitful working is why the Bible tells us that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness (2 Cor. 11:13–15). Counterfeit authority is recognizable by its fruit, which may take time to manifest. It will ultimately bear the unrighteous characteristics of the one behind it—Satan. He:

• Operates from a basis of hatred, because he has no love
• Seeks to suppress, oppress, kill, and destroy whatever threatens or opposes him
• Has no regard for the needs or rights of others
• Takes no responsibility for the well-being of others
• Removes peace and brings turmoil and distress to all who are on the receiving end of his control
• Uses lies, trickery, subtlety, and deceit to get what he wants
• Is darkness, works in darkness, and spreads darkness
• Hates God and the Word of God and is in total rebellion against Him and His Word
• Lords it over everyone, including the demons and fallen angels under him in the unseen realm
• Has power over his subjects because of their sins

The strongest characteristic of counterfeit authority is that it imposes itself and doesn’t respect a person’s right to choose.

God’s authority, on the other hand, is bottom-up, supportive authority. His everlasting arms are underneath, taking responsibility, powerfully protecting and accomplishing what is best for all those whom He loves (Deut. 33:27). True authority is rooted in humility and self-sacrifice (Phil. 2:5–11). It allows entreaty and questioning and asks for, not demands, willing cooperation. In Genesis 18:22–23, Abraham questioned God, entreated Him, and even changed His mind. God’s way of exercising His authority is to instruct people and give them freedom to choose to obey Him. If they choose otherwise, He seeks to persuade them by giving them consequences. He waits patiently with great longsuffering after imposing consequences, giving them space to change their way of thinking and submit to Him willingly. God’s authority reveals the character of God, who:

• Loves, because He is love
• Is not coercive or abusive
• Operates in the realm of freedom and respects the rights and freedom of others
• Is truthful and does not lie
• Is righteous and just
• Is love and light and reveals love and brings light with all His actions
• Always does what is best for others, even at great cost to Himself
• Disciplines by measured, purposeful consequences, and chastisement when necessary, to persuade people to do what is in their best interest
• Is willing to suffer wrong graciously for a very long time to give those He loves the opportunity to make right decisions, that is, to repent, turn, and yield to Him
• Brings life, light, joy, peace, and rest to those who choose to submit to Him
• Supplies whatever is needed to help those who choose to follow Him be able to do so

The strongest characteristic of God’s authority is that it allows others to have freedom to choose within the boundaries He has set for them. He warns them not to violate those boundaries; and, if they do, He gives them consequences designed to help them change their minds and their behavior. In order for freedom to work, boundaries are necessary because there are multiple parties involved. God defines where one party’s freedom stops and where another’s starts. He gives the various parties the right to make their own choices—to have authority over their own choices—within the sphere which He has allotted to them.

In the Garden of Eden, God told Adam what he could not do and also told him the consequence that would come if he disobeyed. Adam and Eve had the freedom to choose to believe God or not. When they believed the lie of Satan instead and acted on it, they received the consequence that God had pronounced. God eventually sent His sinless Son to suffer death in mankind’s place.

When Jesus came, He, too, had the freedom to make His own choice about doing His Father’s will. He said, “I have the authority to lay my life down and to take it up again” (John 10:18). This means that He had authority to say “No” to dying on the cross. Whether He went to the cross or not was entirely His decision. He exercised His authority to choose to submit to His Father’s will, which was to lay down His life for us. This exercise of authority by Christ reveals God’s love for us and gives us the clearest and most powerful view of who God is and what true authority looks like. This is why people bow their knees to Jesus as Lord when they see the sacrifice that He made on the cross for them. Jesus Christ, God Himself, bleeding on the cross for our sins, is authority in action for our ultimate benefit. God Himself paid the price necessary to free us from the consequence of our sin and then gave us another choice: Believe the Son and what He has done to save you. That is the gospel. It is the result of God’s exercise of true authority. He has paid the price to give mankind a second chance, but ... each person must choose to take it!

The concept of God’s authority and man’s freedom is not something that fallen man easily grasps or apprehends. It is easier to understand Satan’s counterfeit authority, because that is the kind of authority human beings have experienced and seen exercised on the earth time and again as men rule over other men by coercion or manipulation.

A fundamental truth is that God respects and values all He creates. He also values having a true and loving relationship with His created beings—one like the relationship that exists with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is no possibility for Him to have such a relationship with His created beings if they are not free to choose to be, or not to be, in relationship with Him. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in a perfect, harmonious, and freedom-based relationship. If God did not give his created beings the freedom to choose whether or not they want to participate in that relationship, He would be violating His own character. He knows that it is best for those whom He has created to choose Him, and He is confident that when they see Him as He really is, they will.

So, in this explanation about true and counterfeit authority, we can see what God’s character is like and what Satan’s character is like. Never forget the difference between God’s way and Satan’s way: God lets man choose; Satan’s imposes. The difference between the two is the difference between breath and death. The wonder of wonders is that God has opened a door for us into eternal life. We can choose to enter through it and be saved. His exercise of authority on our behalf has opened the way for us to get back all that we lost—simply by choosing to believe what He has done for us.

Used with Jane's permission. Emphasis added by me.

Nell

[Drake]

The author appears to miss the fundamental characteristic of a counterfeit. That is, it is difficult to distinguish it from the authentic else it could not effectively deceive.

The description given in Chapter 2 of Satanic authority is not convincing as counterfeit. For instance, if you compare Peters actions to prevent the Lord from going to the cross there is a complete mismatch with the authors description of what is counterfeit. Peter exhibited none of those characteristics, yet the Lord characterized Peter as Satan. Peters natural love and real concern for the Lord's well-being are the characteristics of a genuine and effective counterfeit.

Satan is all those things described but that is not the counterfeit we need to concern ourselves with. An indication of a counterfeit is whether it diverts from seeking the things of God as it was with Peter.

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

The author appears to miss the fundamental characteristic of a counterfeit. That is, it is difficult to distinguish it from the authentic else it could not effectively deceive.

The description given in Chapter 2 of Satanic authority is not convincing as counterfeit. For instance, if you compare Peters actions to prevent the Lord from going to the cross there is a complete mismatch with the authors description of what is counterfeit. Peter exhibited none of those characteristics, yet the Lord characterized Peter as Satan. Peters natural love and real concern for the Lord's well-being are the characteristics of a genuine and effective counterfeit.

Satan is all those things described but that is not the counterfeit we need to concern ourselves with. An indication of a counterfeit is whether it diverts from seeking the things of God as it was with Peter.

Drake

I disagree with you, Drake. Were it not for the counterfeit authority of Satan, we would have no other concerns; we would have no diversions from seeking the things of God. Regardless, the discussion in the quote below is not about "counterfeit". It's about authority and freedom. The quote discusses both the characteristics of God's authority and what Jane describes as Satan's counterfeit authority.

The counterfeit authority of Satan has been used against God's people since Satan rebelled. It was used on Adam and Eve in the garden to effect the fall of man and, to Jane's point, is still being used today by Christian men who have been used by the deceiver to lord it over and rule over, not only Christian women, but other Christian men. I've heard of at least one Christian woman, formerly in the LC, who ruled with counterfeit authority on other saints in the church. Most of us who post on this forum have experience with counterfeit authority as Jane has described. I know I have.

If you don't care for the word "counterfeit", you're free to find another word. This is the one Jane chose and it fits the deeds of the devilish one who exercises self-serving authority over brothers and sisters in Christ and make their lives a living hell.

Nell

[Evangelical]

Counterfeit authority makes sense to me - it is really Satan's twist on God's authority. God has the only authority and he has given man authority to rule (the governing authorities etc). Satan has no authority except that of God's which he twists, abuses and misuses.

I believe what Drake is alluding to is that there are at least two possible ways by which genuine authority is twisted by Satan to become counterfeit:

- to have genuine authority from God and not exercise it in the right way.
- to have no authority from God and exercise it in the right (or wrong) way. This can be a very subtle kind of counterfeit.

We should differentiate between possessing authority and exercising authority. For example, a genuine master has authority over the servant, but the master may abuse the exercise of that authority. Eph 6:5-9 describes how to exercise authority:

Ephesians 6:5 Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,
Ephesians 6:9 Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him.

Suppose the Master did not follow Ephesians 6:9 - this does not mean that the Master does not have authority over the servant or that he is not the master. It means he is not exercising the authority in the proper way. This genuine authority then becomes counterfeit.

Alternatively, the master may only be pretending to be a master over the servant. This would be a counterfeit authority as well, even if the master is loving, kind and treats the servant well. It is mistaken to think that genuine authority is simply a matter of loving those under our authority and not Lording it over them. Counterfeit authority is not just genuine authority misused. Counterfeit authority could be exercise of authority that one does not have. We may think that if there is a ruler in the church who is loving, kind and does not abuse others that they are exercising genuine authority. But there is still the possibility that they are exercising their own authority without any direct authority from God. I have touched on this in my thread "Delegated Authority -what many Christians today do not understand".

[Drake]

Nell,

Words describe concepts and concepts form beliefs and beliefs solidify into doctrine and teachings. That is why her use of the word counterfeit is either relevant or not in her presentation. I think she meant exactly what she said about it. I believe Jane is thoughtful about her choice of words. And in describing Satans counterfeit she mischaracterized it. It is not my place to substitute a different word, Yet, she paints a world that is quintessential black and white, good and evil people, righteous and unrighteousness happenings, things that are right and wrong. So in describing Satan's attack she defaults to this same paradigm, that is , if God is loving and good, Satan is the polar opposite when in reality Satan is very adept at mimicking the attributes of God. Peter exhibited that and for our benefit the Lord recorded the incident. That is why Peter is relevant. His thought, opinion, and recommendation were the Satanic counterfeit and if that is not understood then Jane will have missed the real counterfeit and misidentified as counterfeit that which is not.

To my observation in these few samples of her new book, she seems to be searching for new definitions of scripture to validate the wrongs of the past related to authority and it seems she is building a case that it was counterfeit authority. Therefore I believe this book is very much connected with her past experiences. However, I will reserve a definitive point of view as I see how she develops this line of thinking and where she eventually takes it.

Drake

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Uh oh! That's not what my bible commentaries say! I'm a bible believing Christian who . . .

mashal: to rule, have dominion, reign
Original Word: מָשַׁל
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: mashal
Phonetic Spelling: (maw-shal')
Short Definition: rule
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to rule, have dominion, reign
NASB Translation
dominion (1), gain control (1), govern (1), had charge (1), have authority (1), master (1), obtain dominion (1), really going to rule (1), rule (27), ruled (5), ruler (18), ruler's (2), rulers (6), rules (9), ruling (3), wielded (1).

. . .


There is "..strong proof that everyman rules over his wife – no matter who she is"

Not very careful in parsing the words are you???

The Hebrew words and the definitions do not force an understanding of "because that is the way it is ordained by God" upon it. Having dominion is not necessarily something because of God's ordination. To insist otherwise is to make a claim not in the scripture.

Yes, there is proof that [most] every man rules over his wife. But is that because that the way it should be? Is it because the Bible says it must be? Or is it because that is the way it ends out (as stated would happen there in Genesis)?

None of your "uh ohs" provide a prescription. Just an observation based on a certain viewpoint.

I guess that this kind of Bible scholarship is to be expected from people who follow someone who mishandled the scripture as much as Nee and Lee did. Who never missed the opportunity to turn a description into a prescription. Especially when it benefitted them personally, or their followers generally.