ETERNAL TORMENT IS FALSE TEACHING WHAT SAY YE'?

zeek · 10-31-2016, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Searching for the Truth is more about learning to listen and know our heart/spirit, than an outward search for knowledge. I don't think you will find it on this forum or any other place that is not your own heart. Because the Truth is in our heart/spirit. Once we find that, then we can figure out all the doctrine in our mind later on. So I think the Truth is something you already have, you just need to tap into it to convince your mind.

I agree with the notion that the truth is in us. But the idea that we are going to tap into it now and use our minds later is wrong according to my experience. That reminds me of Witness Lee's "turn from your mind to your spirit" formula. I tried it for 13 years. It didn't work.

Evangelical · 10-31-2016, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

I agree with the notion that the truth is in us. But the idea that we are going to tap into it now and use our minds later is wrong according to my experience. That reminds me of Witness Lee's "turn from your mind to your spirit" formula. I tried it for 13 years. It didn't work.

It would only be proved wrong if you have found the Truth by not tapping into it. When you find the Truth by not tapping into it, then you can say it is wrong according to your experience.

zeek · 10-31-2016, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It would only be proved wrong if you have found the Truth by not tapping into it. When you find the Truth by not tapping into it, then you can say it is wrong according to your experience.

That's not the problem I'm having with your proposition. Rather it's your idea of using the mind later. It seems to me there is no truth without the mind. Truth occurs when the contents of the mind corresponds to reality. Falsity is when the contents of the mind don't.

Tapping is a metaphor. Like tapping into a water supply. When an image in your mind corresponds to reality, then you have "tapped" truth. Now the reality that your mind corresponds to could be a feeling or emotion or intuition. Or it could be a perception. That's how it seems to me.

Evangelical · 11-01-2016, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

That's not the problem I'm having with your proposition. Rather it's your idea of using the mind later. It seems to me there is no truth without the mind. Truth occurs when the contents of the mind corresponds to reality. Falsity is when the contents of the mind don't.

Tapping is a metaphor. Like tapping into a water supply. When an image in your mind corresponds to reality, then you have "tapped" truth. Now the reality that your mind corresponds to could be a feeling or emotion or intuition. Or it could be a perception. That's how it seems to me.

Humans all have something called an inner voice which is independent of the mind. With practice we can learn to discern between the two. The inner voice may be realized during a hazardous situation, before the mind has had time to catch up. I think the truth is to be found in this inner voice rather than the mind which catches up later.

zeek · 11-01-2016, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Humans all have something called an inner voice which is independent of the mind. With practice we can learn to discern between the two. The inner voice may be realized during a hazardous situation, before the mind has had time to catch up. I think the truth is to be found in this inner voice rather than the mind which catches up later.

What you are describing sounds like the intuition i.e. the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning. If we define mind as "the faculty of consciousness and thought" as it often is, then in so far as one is conscious of such "inner voice" such as you describe we are conscious of it in the mind. When you state " we can learn to discern between the two" what faculty of discernment are you referring to other then the mind? In other words, where do you experience the "inner voice" other then in your mind? Perhaps the inner voice may be realized in the mind during a hazardous situation, before one's thoughts have had time to catch up. Nevertheless, both the voice and the thoughts occur in the mind or synonymously in one's consciousness.

Evangelical · 11-01-2016, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

What you are describing sounds like the intuition i.e. the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning. If we define mind as "the faculty of consciousness and thought" as it often is, then in so far as one is conscious of such "inner voice" such as you describe we are conscious of it in the mind. When you state " we can learn to discern between the two" what faculty of discernment are you referring to other then the mind? In other words, where do you experience the "inner voice" other then in your mind? Perhaps the inner voice may be realized in the mind during a hazardous situation, before one's thoughts have had time to catch up. Nevertheless, both the voice and the thoughts occur in the mind or synonymously in one's consciousness.

It's hard to define. Just that I think my experience and the experience of others (not necessarily Christians) is they discern something more than or deeper than the mind, of which they use various means to "tap into" it.

zeek · 11-02-2016, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's hard to define. Just that I think my experience and the experience of others (not necessarily Christians) is they discern something more than or deeper than the mind, of which they use various means to "tap into" it.

There may something deeper call it an inner voice or a sixth sense or the spirit or whatever, but what is discernment if not a mental ability and hence by definition of the mind?

awareness · 11-02-2016, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Humans all have something called an inner voice which is independent of the mind. With practice we can learn to discern between the two. The inner voice may be realized during a hazardous situation, before the mind has had time to catch up. I think the truth is to be found in this inner voice rather than the mind which catches up later.

I've heard this called the still small voice (1 Kings 19:12) but the Bible reference seems to indicate that it was external not internal.

I call it "the awareness reading these words at the moment." Henry David Thoreau, who's famous for finding the ineffable in nature (not in church) also recognized an inner observer that seemed separate from himself.

And it is true that many times our minds have trouble of keeping up with what we experience, sometimes never figuring it out, sometimes requiring detective work.

Evangelical · 11-02-2016, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I've heard this called the still small voice (1 Kings 19:12) but the Bible reference seems to indicate that it was external not internal.

I call it "the awareness reading these words at the moment." Henry David Thoreau, who's famous for finding the ineffable in nature (not in church) also recognized an inner observer that seemed separate from himself.

And it is true that many times our minds have trouble of keeping up with what we experience, sometimes never figuring it out, sometimes requiring detective work.

The kol demamah dakah is recognized to be the speaking that is within our heart.