ETERNAL TORMENT IS FALSE TEACHING WHAT SAY YE'?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The verse says "fear Him who CAN destroy both body and soul in hell," but does NOT say He WILL. Also, there are several Greek words for destroy in English. You should not assume that it means a "termination of existence."

John 5.29 indicates two kinds of resurrections, one of life and the other of judgment. In all cases in the Bible, resurrection meant the body came back to life, as opposed to when Samuel spoke to Saul from the grave. Ones like Lazarus and the many saints in Matthew 27.52-53 resurrected with their same bodies only to die at a later time. In other words, both Jesus and Lazarus were recognizable, and did not receive some foreign looking body.

The comment was made that a soul can not suffer, only a body can. All men (and women, of course) live, die, will be resurrected, and then face judgment in their body. (Hebrew 9.27) Those who believe will be judged by the Lord before the millennial kingdom, and those who do not believe will be judged at the great white throne after the kingdom.

The resurrected unbeliever will be thrown into the lake of fire to die a second time , a physical death. After that they will cease to exist. Souls cannot burn. Souls cannot suffer from fire, a soul without a body cannot experience any physical pain. Eternal torment teaches that souls are tormented forever in a lake of fire. The problem is how can a soul be tormented by fire? It can't.

[ZNPaaneah]

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

I don't think this indicates that their torment will be forever and ever, rather the smoke is the testimony that they were judged, and that judgement will stand forever and ever.

After the holocaust those who committed this crime were judged. If you view the judgement on the guilty to be "smoke", the testimony of them being burned, then that smoke will be forever and ever. We have seen that. The criminals were judged, killed and died.

But 70 years later we are continually revisiting that judgement. That smoke rises to God as a testimony of righteous judgement.

So no, I don't think this verse teaches eternal torment, rather it teaches the value of righteous judgement for eternity.

I think they have confused a Living Memorial with Eternal Torment.

[zeek]

You're all coming at this subject with a least two unsupported assumptions:

1.That the writers of the Bible knew what they were talking about. We have a lot more knowledge of the universe then they did during Biblical times, and so far, I'm not aware that anyone has discovered a place that fits the Biblical description of hell. Sure, there are the so-called near death experience [NDEs]. But, at this point in the state of knowledge, NDEs are more likely neuropsychological than metaphysical.

2. That the writers all believed the same thing about the after-life. Since many of them were not aware of each other and wrote at different times as the Judaeo-Christian religion developed, its more likely that there is a variety of beliefs about these things.

[manna-man]

LOL! Ken...

The same could be said about you or me.

IMHO, it can be difficult to discredit eye witnesses.

I'm perplexed by your vague statement but it does have me now wondering if there were blue skies or overcast skies on the days they may not have known what they were talking about...I really wonder if they were intellectual enough to comprehend anything. :-)

[zeek]

Originally Posted by manna-man

LOL! Ken...

The same could be said about you or me.

IMHO, it can be difficult to discredit eye witnesses.

I'm perplexed by your vague statement but it does have me now wondering if there were blue skies or overcast skies on the days they may not have known what they were talking about...I really wonder if they were intellectual enough to comprehend anything. :-)

How could they be eye witnesses to eternal torment or hell?

[manna-man]

Ken,

Your efforts would be better served making a case against those who perpetuated the myth/false doctrine of eternal torment. Not trying to debunk me for making the case. Anyone that has put any thought into it knows God couldn't be so evil.
I will remain cautious to enter into a deep discussion with you or Harold because it is quite evident that you two go way beyond reasonable efforts to twist the truths with your contorted narratives.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Ken,

Your efforts would be better served making a case against those who perpetuated the myth/false doctrine of eternal torment. Not trying to debunk me for making the case. Anyone that has put any thought into it knows God couldn't be so evil.
I will remain cautious to enter into a deep discussion with you or Harold because it is quite evident that you two go way beyond reasonable efforts to twist the truths with your contorted narratives.

Not at all. I try to practice the philosophical principle of charity toward them and toward you. That includes putting the best possible construction on your opponent's views. What I usually see on Internet forums is the opposite practice of putting the worst possible construction on the opponent's views. Furthermore, I assume that you and they are persons of good will unless I see evidence to the contrary. In times of conflict such as we are living in today, don't you find that refreshing?

Deluded or not, I actually believe I am seeking the Truth. I would like to believe a universalist view not unlike that of the early church father Origen wherein everyone is eventually saved. But, alas, I have found the metaphysical skepticism of commentators like David Hume and Immanuel Kant to be persuasive. Sooo, my days of metaphysical dogma appear to be over, or at least on a long sabbatical.

[awareness]

Hey Jr. Glad you're hear to get spunky with our traditional conceptions of hell.

Could a loving God invent an eternal cosmic torture chamber?

Well, you provided a quote (a long one by the way), so I'll answer this with a quote (see if you get it):

"This Bible is built mainly out of the fragments of older Bibles that had their day and crumbled to ruin. So it noticeably lacks in originality, necessarily. Its three or four most imposing and impressive events all happened in earlier Bibles; all its best precepts and rules of conduct came also from those Bibles; there are only two new things in it: hell, for one, and that singular heaven I have told you about. What shall we do? If we believe, with these people, that their God invented these cruel things, we slander him; if we believe that these people invented them themselves, we slander them. It is an unpleasant dilemma in either case, for neither of these parties has done us any harm. For the sake of tranquillity, let us take a side. Let us join forces with the people and put the whole ungracious burden upon him—heaven, hell, Bible and all. It does not seem right, it does not seem fair; and yet when you consider that heaven, and how crushingly charged it is with everything that is repulsive to a human being, how can we believe a human being invented it? And when I come to tell you about hell, the strain will be greater still, and you will be likely to say, No, a man would not provide that place, for either himself or anybody else; he simply couldn’t."
~ Twain, Mark. Letters from the Earth: Uncensored Writings (Perennial Classics) (Kindle Locations 240-246). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by awareness

Hey Jr. Glad you're hear to get spunky with our traditional conceptions of hell.

Could a loving God invent an eternal cosmic torture chamber?

Well, you provided a quote (a long one by the way), so I'll answer this with a quote (see if you get it):

"This Bible is built mainly out of the fragments of older Bibles that had their day and crumbled to ruin. So it noticeably lacks in originality, necessarily. Its three or four most imposing and impressive events all happened in earlier Bibles; all its best precepts and rules of conduct came also from those Bibles; there are only two new things in it: hell, for one, and that singular heaven I have told you about. What shall we do? If we believe, with these people, that their God invented these cruel things, we slander him; if we believe that these people invented them themselves, we slander them. It is an unpleasant dilemma in either case, for neither of these parties has done us any harm. For the sake of tranquillity, let us take a side. Let us join forces with the people and put the whole ungracious burden upon him—heaven, hell, Bible and all. It does not seem right, it does not seem fair; and yet when you consider that heaven, and how crushingly charged it is with everything that is repulsive to a human being, how can we believe a human being invented it? And when I come to tell you about hell, the strain will be greater still, and you will be likely to say, No, a man would not provide that place, for either himself or anybody else; he simply couldn’t."
~ Twain, Mark. Letters from the Earth: Uncensored Writings (Perennial Classics) (Kindle Locations 240-246). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

Crumbled to ruin?

Harold,

Only Satan himself would try to spin a narrative like yours and hope men would allow such foolishness to take root in their minds. You have thrown the baby out with the bathwater/given up on the gospel of Christ and crossed over to the dark side.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Crumble to ruin?

Harold,

Only Satan himself would try to spin a narrative like yours and hope men would allow such foolishness to take root in their minds. You have thrown the baby out with the bathwater/given up on the gospel of Christ and crossed over to the dark side.

Now now Don. Harold's not Satan. A Halloween witch maybe, but not Satan.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by zeek

Now now Don. Harold's not Satan. A Halloween witch maybe, but not Satan.

Ken...you and Harold remind me of a couple of characters in the book "screwtape letters by C.S. Lewis.)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Crumbled to ruin?

Harold,

Only Satan himself would try to spin a narrative like yours and hope men would allow such foolishness to take root in their minds. You have thrown the baby out with the bathwater/given up on the gospel of Christ and crossed over to the dark side.

I am not the topic of this thread.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by awareness

I am not the topic of this thread.

Sure you are.

And so am I and everyone else.

Is it not a main function of this group to have open discussions and express our experiences
and ideas? You do this all the time. Must I abide by a different standard that you helped form here on Alternative views? A quick review of your posts will validate that you are...(Your Opinions). Are the topic on many threads.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

You're all coming at this subject with a least two unsupported assumptions:

1.That the writers of the Bible knew what they were talking about. We have a lot more knowledge of the universe then they did during Biblical times, and so far, I'm not aware that anyone has discovered a place that fits the Biblical description of hell. Sure, there are the so-called near death experience [NDEs]. But, at this point in the state of knowledge, NDEs are more likely neuropsychological than metaphysical.

2. That the writers all believed the same thing about the after-life. Since many of them were not aware of each other and wrote at different times as the Judaeo-Christian religion developed, its more likely that there is a variety of beliefs about these things.

How do we know that you are not a computer generating posts on a forum.

Even the so-called eye-witnesses who once knew you cannot be trusted since we know so much more than we did back in the 20th century.

I need substantial, verifiable, and testable evidence to prove you are really a human, until then I must assume otherwise.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How do we know that you are not a computer generating posts on a forum.

Even the so-called eye-witnesses who once knew you cannot be trusted since we know so much more than we did back in the 20th century.

I need substantial, verifiable, and testable evidence to prove you are really a human, until then I must assume otherwise.

There are few things I am more certain of than the fact that I am not a robot. I doubt that you have serious doubts about it either. If you did, it's easy enough for you to check out. Not so for statements about hell or eternal torment or the after-life in general which we have NO way to verify short of suicide in which case you likely will not be reporting back. So your argument has minimal bearing on the question at hand.