Do you think Christianity is degraded?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

On this forum Witness Lee's disparaging remarks concerning Christianity have been quoted and rebuked repeatedly. Therefore it is only fair and reasonable that those of us who have taken issue with Witness Lee on this point respond to this question. What say ye?

ZNPaaneah, to get to the heart of the matter, we should consider these questions:

What is Christianity?

Christianity is a religion comprising 20,000+ denominations.

Did God start Christianity? No, men did. Men start religions, God started His church. Good reference here is "Christ versus Religion - by Witness Lee".


What does degradation mean?

Degradation basically means not normal. Watchman Nee wrote what is a normal church in his normal church life books. In recent times, some have published books explaining how Christianity is essentially pagan ("Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola Author and George Barna").

A degraded system -referring mostly to the organized hierarchical church.
clergy/laity distinctions, cathedrals, idols etc.

Does a church have to build a cathedral and have a priest to be degraded? No - any church which has one church leader and no functioning members is essentially degraded. A degraded church could be a non-denominational house church.

Degradation means loss of function. If your body's arm stops working you could say the arm is degraded, it cannot function as an arm. The same with the body of Christ.

Degraded Christianity locked up the Bible for hundreds of years, and was released through Luther and others.

Degradation is caused by not accepting Christ's Headship.

Lee holds a view that the church become degraded from the second century.

Is it true?

History would say yes. The degraded system was in place for hundreds of years soon after Constantine made Christianity a state religion.

Is Christianity degraded today?
If we believe that Roman Catholicism at least, is part of Christianity, the answer is an obvious yes.

What does the Bible say?

Judaism is Satanic (Rev. 2:9-10. )
Catholicism is demonic (Rev. 2:24-28)
Protestantism is dead and Christless (Rev. 3:1-5, 20-21).

We cannot find a genuine church in any sort of "ism".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, to get to the heart of the matter, we should consider these questions:

What is Christianity?

Christianity is a religion comprising 20,000+ denominations.

Did God start Christianity? No, men did. Men start religions, God started His church. Good reference here is "Christ versus Religion - by Witness Lee".

Witness Lee defines religion as anything that we do for God apart from God. I reject this definition as not Biblical. It is very clear from the fellowship of the Apostles that this is not a valid definition.

So, no, I disagree with your assertion. Prove it from the fellowship of the Apostles. Witness Lee's books can be referenced by you all you wish, but the ultimate authority in my opinion, and Witness Lee's opinion, is the fellowship of the apostles.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What does degradation mean?

Degradation basically means not normal. Watchman Nee wrote what is a normal church in his normal church life books.

A degraded system -referring mostly to the organized hierarchical church.
clergy/laity distinctions, cathedrals etc.

Does a church have to build a cathedral and have a priest to be degraded? No - any church which has one church leader and no functioning members is essentially degraded.

Degradation means loss of function. If your body's arm stops working you could say the arm is degraded, it cannot function as an arm. The same with the body of Christ.

Degraded Christianity locked up the Bible for hundreds of years, and was released through Luther and others.

Lee holds a view that the church become degraded from the second century.

Is it true?

History would say yes. The degraded system was in place for hundreds of years soon after Constantine made Christianity a state religion.

Is Christianity degraded today?
If we include Roman Catholicism in Christianity, the answer is an obvious yes.

Once again, you can reference Watchman Nee books if you please, but I will only acknowledge the authority of the apostle's fellowship on this topic.

I find the reference to "hierarchical" and "organized" idiotic. The New Testament provides a lot of discussion on the organization of the church. The idea that "hierarchical" is equivalent to "degraded" is based on a very poor assumption that the term "nicolaitan" refers to a hierarchy that stifles the function of the members of the Body. That is a very poor and self serving example of biblical interpretation. No verse is of its own interpretation, particularly when you have an undefined term that you define a certain way because that is what you want it to mean. Even the term "the body of Christ" implies organization. Our body is highly organized. All life forms are organized. I consider Witness Lee's use of this to be very hypocritical. He condemns all Christian organizations as being "organized" hence degraded. Yet he himself was the head of a very big organization and he put his profligate son in charge of a Christian ministry even though he was well aware of how degraded he was. He condemned seminary and then set up his own seminary. His condemnation was merely self justification.

I also find the term "not normal" to be "not useful". The record in the New Testament is very clear, what we see in all forms of Christian meetings is in fact what has been accurately described with great detail in the New Testament. Therefore it is "typical", it is "expected", it is "anticipated", and it appears to be "necessary". Is it normal for a child to get measles or mumps? It is typical, it is common, and it may be necessary to develop immunity either by getting the childhood disease or by getting a vaccination. But the word "normal" may not apply. Therefore I feel this term is not helpful in understanding this issue.

What you refer to as "degraded Christianity" I see as something that Christians need to experience and overcome to grow into full maturity. You cannot overcome these things if you do not experience them, just as you cannot develop immunity to the mumps unless you experience it, either by being exposed to the disease or to a vaccine. In my understanding the reference to "false prophets", "heresies", "false teachers", all refer to these necessary diseases that we must overcome. Jezebel and Balaam are examples. The teaching of the Nicolaitans is an example. The Judaizers were an example. James is an example of someone who was exposed to this disease, developed immunity to it, overcame it, and then his ministry was a vaccination for the Body of Christ.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Witness Lee defines religion as anything that we do for God apart from God. I reject this definition as not Biblical. It is very clear from the fellowship of the Apostles that this is not a valid definition.

So, no, I disagree with your assertion. Prove it from the fellowship of the Apostles. Witness Lee's books can be referenced by you all you wish, but the ultimate authority in my opinion, and Witness Lee's opinion, is the fellowship of the apostles.



Once again, you can reference Watchman Nee books if you please, but I will only acknowledge the authority of the apostle's fellowship on this topic.

I find the reference to "hierarchical" and "organized" idiotic. The New Testament provides a lot of discussion on the organization of the church. The idea that "hierarchical" is equivalent to "degraded" is based on a very poor assumption that the term "nicolaitan" refers to a hierarchy that stifles the function of the members of the Body. That is a very poor and self serving example of biblical interpretation. No verse is of its own interpretation, particularly when you have an undefined term that you define a certain way because that is what you want it to mean. Even the term "the body of Christ" implies organization. Our body is highly organized. All life forms are organized. I consider Witness Lee's use of this to be very hypocritical. He condemns all Christian organizations as being "organized" hence degraded. Yet he himself was the head of a very big organization and he put his profligate son in charge of a Christian ministry even though he was well aware of how degraded he was. He condemned seminary and then set up his own seminary. His condemnation was merely self justification.

I also find the term "not normal" to be "not useful". The record in the New Testament is very clear, what we see in all forms of Christian meetings is in fact what has been accurately described with great detail in the New Testament. Therefore it is "typical", it is "expected", it is "anticipated", and it appears to be "necessary". Is it normal for a child to get measles or mumps? It is typical, it is common, and it may be necessary to develop immunity either by getting the childhood disease or by getting a vaccination. But the word "normal" may not apply. Therefore I feel this term is not helpful in understanding this issue.

What you refer to as "degraded Christianity" I see as something that Christians need to experience and overcome to grow into full maturity. You cannot overcome these things if you do not experience them, just as you cannot develop immunity to the mumps unless you experience it, either by being exposed to the disease or to a vaccine. In my understanding the reference to "false prophets", "heresies", "false teachers", all refer to these necessary diseases that we must overcome. Jezebel and Balaam are examples. The teaching of the Nicolaitans is an example. The Judaizers were an example. James is an example of someone who was exposed to this disease, developed immunity to it, overcame it, and then his ministry was a vaccination for the Body of Christ.

If you think we can do things for God without God, makes me wonder why God gave us the Holy Spirit, and spiritual gifts etc. And why Jesus said:

John 15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me.
"

Hierarchy is also mentioned in Matthew 23:9 and

Matthew 20:25 "But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them."

So the fellowship of the apostles, no, the words of Christ Himself, tells me that hierarchy is not normal.


I'm curious to know if you think the Reformation should have happened? Or perhaps Christians should have stayed in the Roman Catholic church and overcame it rather than separate from it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If you think we can do things for God without God, makes me wonder why God gave us the Holy Spirit, and spiritual gifts etc. And why Jesus said:

I don't think that and I didn't say that. I said that Witness Lee defines religion as meaning that, but it doesn't mean that. Read the New Testament, the term is defined in the New Testament and it does not mean that.

According to James "religion pure and undefiled with the God and Father is this, to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation".

Now as you point out, according to Jesus "apart from Me you can do nothing".

Therefore a logical person would put these two together to say that the New Testament defines religion as a "looking after orphans and widows in their tribulation by being joined to Jesus as the vine in obedience to the Lord's command to love your neighbor as yourself".

It is very alarming to me that Witness Lee felt it necessary to denigrate this term.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't think that and I didn't say that. I said that Witness Lee defines religion as meaning that, but it doesn't mean that. Read the New Testament, the term is defined in the New Testament and it does not mean that.

According to James "religion pure and undefiled with the God and Father is this, to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation".

Now as you point out, according to Jesus "apart from Me you can do nothing".

Therefore a logical person would put these two together to say that the New Testament defines religion as a "looking after orphans and widows in their tribulation by being joined to Jesus as the vine in obedience to the Lord's command to love your neighbor as yourself".

It is very alarming to me that Witness Lee felt it necessary to denigrate this term.

What you described in James there is true religion. Lee did not really denigrate this term "religion". In fact, if you read LIFE-STUDY OF JOHN MESSAGE NINETEEN, Lee says that Judaism is the only real, genuine and true religion. Many Protestants would not speak so kindly about Judaism. Lee says that religion is good, but it is not the living person of Christ. It is on the basis of religion not being able to give life, that Lee speaks against it. It goes something like this - religion is good, but life is better. If we have life, then religion is a negative thing.

[Evangelical]

from "Misrepresenting Witness Lee’s Critique of Christianity ".
To say that something is degraded simply means that it has fallen below its ordinary standards or that it has negatively changed in its function and structure.17 According to Witness Lee’s teaching in Practice, the system of Christianity is degraded in its standards, function, and structure because it has developed “formalities and rituals,” “regulations and unscriptural practices,” “hierarchy” with “ambition” for position, and the “clergy-laity system.” Today’s Christianity is also full of divisions.18 It is these negative matters that kill the organic function of the members of the Body of Christ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
This degraded religious system [of Christianity] takes the natural, human, traditional, cultural, and religious way. Humanly speaking, religion is a good thing, but spiritually speaking it is something against God's economy. God does not want a religion, but He surely wants to see His economy accomplished. We are not here for religion but for God's economy, which is to propagate His completed Christ to produce the church as the Body of such a Christ.
— Witness Lee, The God-ordained Way to Practice the New Testament Economy

The church includes all those who share the common faith that saves us, the one faith spoken of in Ephesians 4:5. This faith is held in common by all who are saved (2 Pet. 1:1). This faith causes the believers to be one and does not divide them. Any creed or system of teaching that goes beyond the common faith divides the believers.
— Witness Lee, Crucial Truths in the Holy Scriptures, Vol. 6

[Evangelical]

Now my personal opinion about whether Christianity is degraded.

More than 30 years in degraded Christianity myself I can conclude that many things I have seen and experienced can only be because of widespread degradation and not just bespoke examples of bad churches.

This is because the system is wrong. Many bible colleges of large denominations are producing paid ministers, clergy who are not Christians. Some are Buddhist, some are atheist. They stay in that role because it's a job. They may care for humanity, but they don't believe the Bible. Some are into spirit-ism, some are clairvoyants and spirit mediums. Because they are ordained, they are allowed to handle the bread and wine, but a regular lay person cannot. In a real church it is not possible for a leader to not be a Christian. But the degraded system of Christianity has made this possible. This is because it is about promoting and building up the organization rather than the kingdom of God. For that reason they do not really care if the leaders are Christians or not. As long a they are qualified and experienced to lead a service it is acceptable for them.

Social clubs - many churches are essentially just Christ-less social clubs. In my experience Bible studies were actually not about studying the bible but discussion about ones favorite movies in relation to some ethical or human consideration. Most of the discussion was nothing about God or the Bible.

In a Christ-less degraded church service, it is possible to attend a service and never hear the name of Christ mentioned once. It is possible to hear about many things about finance, miracles, healings, how to be a good husband or wife, but nothing about Christ.

I have also been in churches which hold meditation services, very similar to yoga meditation classes. It promotes tranquility and perhaps has some benefit to the soul but again, has nothing to do with Christ.

Christians not knowing how to pray or the basics of the Bible - only a degraded system could produce converts or church members who cannot pray or know the basics of the Bible. In many churches the things the members can do or not do is controlled by the pastor or priest. There is actually no freedom to pray in the middle of the service or speak or share a message from the Bible. Everything is controlled by the pastor or priest and order of service. A service cannot happen without the pastor or priest being present. This is a degraded situation.

I could go on with many other examples of the degraded system of Christianity.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

from "Misrepresenting Witness Lee’s Critique of Christianity ".
To say that something is degraded simply means that it has fallen below its ordinary standards or that it has negatively changed in its function and structure.17 According to Witness Lee’s teaching in Practice, the system of Christianity is degraded in its standards, function, and structure because it has developed “formalities and rituals,” “regulations and unscriptural practices,” “hierarchy” with “ambition” for position, and the “clergy-laity system.” Today’s Christianity is also full of divisions.18 It is these negative matters that kill the organic function of the members of the Body of Christ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
This degraded religious system [of Christianity] takes the natural, human, traditional, cultural, and religious way. Humanly speaking, religion is a good thing, but spiritually speaking it is something against God's economy. God does not want a religion, but He surely wants to see His economy accomplished. We are not here for religion but for God's economy, which is to propagate His completed Christ to produce the church as the Body of such a Christ.
— Witness Lee, The God-ordained Way to Practice the New Testament Economy

The church includes all those who share the common faith that saves us, the one faith spoken of in Ephesians 4:5. This faith is held in common by all who are saved (2 Pet. 1:1). This faith causes the believers to be one and does not divide them. Any creed or system of teaching that goes beyond the common faith divides the believers.
— Witness Lee, Crucial Truths in the Holy Scriptures, Vol. 6

The fellowship of the apostles define what the common faith is that we all share.

The issues you raise -- formalities, rituals, regulations, unscriptural practices, hierarchy, and clergy laity system are all depicted in the letters to the seven churches in Revelation. Therefore I will address these by looking at those verses.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is because the system is wrong.

We need to look at the cause. I believe the cause for the issues you raise is due to false prophets, false teachers, the flesh, sin, and people leaving the fellowship of the apostles.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Many bible colleges of large denominations are producing paid ministers, clergy who are not Christians. Some are Buddhist, some are atheist. They stay in that role because it's a job. They may care for humanity, but they don't believe the Bible. Some are into spirit-ism, some are clairvoyants and spirit mediums. Because they are ordained, they are allowed to handle the bread and wine, but a regular lay person cannot. In a real church it is not possible for a leader to not be a Christian. But the degraded system of Christianity has made this possible. This is because it is about promoting and building up the organization rather than the kingdom of God. For that reason they do not really care if the leaders are Christians or not. As long a they are qualified and experienced to lead a service it is acceptable for them.

Here you are talking about nominal Christians. The term degraded refers to something that was at one time not degraded. A nominal Christian may never have been a genuine believer, hence they are not "degraded", they are simply false.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Social clubs - many churches are essentially just Christ-less social clubs. In my experience Bible studies were actually not about studying the bible but discussion about ones favorite movies in relation to some ethical or human consideration. Most of the discussion was nothing about God or the Bible.

In a Christ-less degraded church service, it is possible to attend a service and never hear the name of Christ mentioned once. It is possible to hear about many things about finance, miracles, healings, how to be a good husband or wife, but nothing about Christ.

I have also been in churches which hold meditation services, very similar to yoga meditation classes. It promotes tranquility and perhaps has some benefit to the soul but again, has nothing to do with Christ.

Once again you are not talking about degraded Christianity but nominal Christianity.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Christians not knowing how to pray or the basics of the Bible - only a degraded system could produce converts or church members who cannot pray or know the basics of the Bible. In many churches the things the members can do or not do is controlled by the pastor or priest. There is actually no freedom to pray in the middle of the service or speak or share a message from the Bible. Everything is controlled by the pastor or priest and order of service. A service cannot happen without the pastor or priest being present. This is a degraded situation.

I could go on with many other examples of the degraded system of Christianity.

Pastors controlling services are not in and of themselves evidence of a degraded meeting. I was in large meetings in Taipei, in Hall 1, led by Witness Lee, and he fully controlled what took place in the meeting. Yes, we typically had an opportunity during the meeting to speak into a microphone, but I have never had the level of control in a Christian context that I experienced in the FTTT. They controlled the clothes we wore, the food we ate, where we slept, how much time we had for a shower, what time we were awake, what time we slept, how we exercised, etc. No one thought that this level of control could be exhibited in a regular meeting, but the thought was that since we put ourselves into a position where Witness Lee could control everything it would be very beneficial.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What you described in James there is true religion. Lee did not really denigrate this term "religion". In fact, if you read LIFE-STUDY OF JOHN MESSAGE NINETEEN, Lee says that Judaism is the only real, genuine and true religion. Many Protestants would not speak so kindly about Judaism. Lee says that religion is good, but it is not the living person of Christ. It is on the basis of religion not being able to give life, that Lee speaks against it. It goes something like this - religion is good, but life is better. If we have life, then religion is a negative thing.

Once again, Witness Lee is not the authority, nor is this thread talking about his ministry. We have rebuked and repudiated much of what Witness Lee taught, you responded "what about you"? That is what this thread is about, it is a response to your question.

On this thread it is the apostle's fellowship that is the authority.

There are 6 mentions of the word. Two in the book of Acts, two in Galatians, and two in James. None of them support Witness Lee's definition. His definition is not according to the fellowship of the apostles and I reject it. This is a New Testament term and I will stick to the New Testament definition.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Once again, Witness Lee is not the authority, nor is this thread talking about his ministry. We have rebuked and repudiated much of what Witness Lee taught, you responded "what about you"? That is what this thread is about, it is a response to your question.

On this thread it is the apostle's fellowship that is the authority.

There are 6 mentions of the word. Two in the book of Acts, two in Galatians, and two in James. None of them support Witness Lee's definition. His definition is not according to the fellowship of the apostles and I reject it. This is a New Testament term and I will stick to the New Testament definition.

I'm confused ZNPaaneah. When I post something not related to Lee or Nee, I am told that this forum is about Lee or Nee's ministry. Now when I post something in reference to Lee, I am told by you that it is not about Lee. It seems this forum has some sort of identity crisis. Or at least, it is convenient for some members to decide when it is about Lee and when it is not about Lee, to suit their own purposes.


You said

It is very alarming to me that Witness Lee felt it necessary to denigrate this term.

I was not talking about his ministry but refuting what you said. My post showed you that he did not "denigrate a term". He spoke positively of religion, even saying Judaism is the true religion. He spoke of religion for what it was - a system of beliefs and rituals. He said that systems of beliefs and rituals do not give life. If we are a Christian we would have to agree with that. Religion does not give life, and from this point of view religion is a negative thing. Even your pet verse in James - taking care of orphans and widows, does not give life. It is a good thing to do, but cannot give life.
You seem to be twisted Lee's words to mean that he was against taking care of orphans and widows. That is not the meaning of being "against religion".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hierarchy is also mentioned in Matthew 23:9 and

Matthew 20:25 "But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them."

So the fellowship of the apostles, no, the words of Christ Himself, tells me that hierarchy is not normal.

Yes, the New Testament talks about hierarchy that can be negative. You then conclude that it is not normal. But that is not supported by Matthew who also says "since they sit in Moses seat do all they say". Moses seat was set up by God. Since he was unable to care for the millions of people he set up a hierarchy. Try reading the Bible.

Peter also speaks of hierarchy:

5 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker,
2 feed the flock of God that [is] among you, overseeing not constrainedly, but willingly, neither for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind,
3 neither as exercising lordship over the heritages, but patterns becoming of the flock,
4 and at the manifestation of the chief Shepherd, ye shall receive the unfading crown of glory.

Elders are a form of hierarchy in a family.

Overseeing is contrasted with "lording it over". The proper function is to oversee, the distorted function is to "lord it over". A proper motive is out of a ready mind of one who is serving the Lord, an improper motive is for filthy lucre. An improper approach is to lord it over, a proper approach is to be a pattern to the flock.

But whether it is proper or improper, it is still organization and hierarchy.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, the New Testament talks about hierarchy that can be negative. You then conclude that it is not normal. But that is not supported by Matthew who also says "since they sit in Moses seat do all they say". Moses seat was set up by God. Since he was unable to care for the millions of people he set up a hierarchy. Try reading the Bible.

Peter also speaks of hierarchy:

5 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker,
2 feed the flock of God that [is] among you, overseeing not constrainedly, but willingly, neither for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind,
3 neither as exercising lordship over the heritages, but patterns becoming of the flock,
4 and at the manifestation of the chief Shepherd, ye shall receive the unfading crown of glory.

Elders are a form of hierarchy in a family.

Overseeing is contrasted with "lording it over". The proper function is to oversee, the distorted function is to "lord it over". A proper motive is out of a ready mind of one who is serving the Lord, an improper motive is for filthy lucre. An improper approach is to lord it over, a proper approach is to be a pattern to the flock.

But whether it is proper or improper, it is still organization and hierarchy.

Normal for the Jews perhaps, not normal for God's church. Jesus did not desire any sort of clergy-laity structure in the church, all were equal in importance and function. The historical fact is that there was no clergy class in the early church.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Normal for the Jews perhaps, not normal for God's church. Jesus did not desire any sort of clergy-laity structure in the church, all were equal in importance and function. The historical fact is that there was no clergy class in the early church.

Jesus told Peter to "feed my sheep". Peter talks about "overseers". That is organization and that is hierarchical. A father and grandfather having authority in the family is a hierarchy, it is organization. This is why it is idiotic to use these terms as some kind of basis to identify "degradation". By definition, when a living organism dies and degrades it loses its organization.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Normal for the Jews perhaps, not normal for God's church. Jesus did not desire any sort of clergy-laity structure in the church, all were equal in importance and function. The historical fact is that there was no clergy class in the early church.

That's not true at all.

The New Testament is filled with verses delineating organizational structure with elders and deacons. There were also many gifted ones named apostles, prophets, shepherds, evangelists, teachers. What do you think they all did in the meetings of the church? Sit in the back row and sleep?

Do you have any idea how narrow-minded and skewed your definition of "functioning" is? If someone stands up and reads a line from a footnote, you shout and proclaim that all the members can function, and then simultaneously you condemn the body of Christ for being dead .. Because they can't stand up in their assembly and read a footnote by WL.

Oh the hypocrisy! Why do you think so many of us have left? You have simply replaced the so-called "one-man-speaking" with the "speaking-of-one-man." That is no improvement at all! At least the former speak from the word of God.

I've been to many churches, including the LC's. There are always going to be some who sit silently in the meetings, and probably come only on Sundays. I saw that in all the LC's I visited. Who are you to categorically condemn them all? How do you know what they believe or how they function in the body of Christ? I saw far too many showy performances in LSM trainings to believe for a moment that they had the market on spiritual reality and functioning.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's not true at all.
The New Testament is filled with verses delineating organizational structure with elders and deacons. There were also many gifted ones named apostles, prophets, shepherds, evangelists, teachers. What do you think they all did in the meetings of the church? Sit in the back row and sleep?

So I ask you, where are these gifted ones in the organised denominations today? Paul desired everyone to desire gifts and especially to prophesy (1 Corinthians 14). So where is the opportunity for a non-theologically trained and unqualified person to use their gifts such as prophesy and teaching in a 1 hour Sunday service?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you have any idea how narrow-minded and skewed your definition of "functioning" is? If someone stands up and reads a line from a footnote, you shout and proclaim that all the members can function, and then simultaneously you condemn the body of Christ for being dead .. Because they can't stand up in their assembly and read a footnote by WL.

My Bible tells me that in the body of Christ every member is needed, everyone has gifts, and we cannot say we don't need anyone.

On that basis the system of only a few theologically qualified ones providing a service to a congregation Sunday in and Sunday, must be rejected.

That sort of system arose in the early middle ages and did not originate in the New Testament.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Oh the hypocrisy! Why do you think so many of us have left? You have simply replaced the so-called "one-man-speaking" with the "speaking-of-one-man." That is no improvement at all! At least the former speak from the word of God.

Umm, the majority of churches they don't speak from the word of God but from the Sunday service sheet or prayer book. It is like that in the majors - Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran. What makes this somewhat different from people merely reading footnotes in LSM, is that there is no freedom for a member to pick and choose what they want to say from the book, and the same service is followed every Sunday (there are some variations of course, but usually minor). Since this is the majority then my statement that "Christianity is degraded" is no less true.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I've been to many churches, including the LC's. There are always going to be some who sit silently in the meetings, and probably come only on Sundays. I saw that in all the LC's I visited. Who are you to categorically condemn them all? How do you know what they believe or how they function in the body of Christ? I saw far too many showy performances in LSM trainings to believe for a moment that they had the market on spiritual reality and functioning.

Ohio, when you say "always going to be some who sit silently" I don't think you comprehend the situation. Every Sunday, every week, every year, in Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, which is the majority of Christianity, they hold a service, the Priest says the same thing every Sunday from the same prayer book. The congregation respond in the same manner at the same time when the Priest instructs them to. The only time the congregation can "function" is when they sing the hymns or respond to the rote prayers and responses written in the service books. And you say LSM is a cult? Well the average Sunday service looks more like a cult to me. The same order of processions, rituals, the robes, the candles and other things in the church, just enhance that cult-like effect.

Pentecostal churches have more freedoms but they are still tightly controlled by the pastor. I have friends who were worship leaders who were instructed by the pastor when they could raise their hands in worship and when they shouldn't. On the flip side, I have also been to Presbyterian churches where the pastor forbade anyone from closing their eyes and raising their hands during worship because it was too "Pentecostal".

So I am confident to stand by my statement that "Christianity is degraded". Because the majority of churches in the world today are of the sort I have just described.

If you have a problem with such generalisation, I will not say 90% are degraded or 20% are degraded because it doesn't make sense to talk like that. If our body is sick, even though it may affect only one part of our body, we will say "I am sick". We do not say "20% of my body is sick".

[countmeworthy]

I may end up ruffling a whole bunch of feathers here because many here on this forum are fellowshipping in a denominational church.

I am not going to criticize anyone who attends the 4 walled 'church'..especially given the LC/LSM experience.

That said.. I have come to understand and agree that what Nee & Lee and others before them and after them have said is TRUE. I HATE when people say ' so & so converted to CHRISTIANITY'! WE did not convert to a religion!! We saw the Light and turned our hearts and our lives over to GOD HIMSELF. HE IS NOT A RELIGION.. HE IS NOT A 'CHRISTIAN' RELIGION.

But the LC/LSM while saying the right things became an instrument of Satan himself by dividing and even destroying the lives of the followers of JESUS CHRIST.

After Lee emphasized the RCC, CHRISTIANITY AND RELIGION is degraded, he himself fell into Satan's trap. And the LC/LSM that disparaged the very things they exposed became one with religion. I think this happened because Lee became prideful.. and that became his downfall..

I just want you guys to know if you don't know this already, the true believers are beginning to leave the man made church, the clergy-laity system, the 'church' of the Nicolaitans that Jesus Himself hates IN DROVES. AND none of them have ever heard of Witness Lee or the LC/LSM.

I am hearing testimony after testimony of people saying 'The LORD told me to get out'. Many express themselves differently of course but that is basically what they are saying. AND they are also saying the walk is not easy because few if any understand them. Most that I know that are leaving the man made church is there is no real message..no gospel..the truth has been watered down. It is a good feel, prosperity community. No teaching.. it is becoming a one world religion. Many denominations are already returning to the RCC where they came out of.

Check out Kenneth Copeland and his conversation with the pope for starters.

I used to struggle on how to respond to people when they asked me 'what church do you attend?' Now.. I just tell them the LORD took me out of the man made church after I studied Revelation 2 & 3. I am not forsaking the assembling spoken of in Hebrews btw.

And if you guys remember.. I did attend a charismatic man-made church from 2005 - 2010/11. While I did learn some things and my faith did grow, it was just a temporary place I needed (I think I needed) to be. So my upbringing is: Catholic, LC, a taste of charismatic, WOF (word of faith), Pentecostalism and now F R E E D O M in Christ..

To those of you who are attending a 4 walled fellowship group, don't be throwing stones at me! If that is where God has you..that is where GOD HAS YOU.

All I know is He pulled me out and I am thankful.

Blessings to all.
Carol