The Fallacy of Ecumenism

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Witness Lee

Anyone who is not in the local oneness is not actually in the oneness at all. Those who are not in a local church are not truly in the church. In order to be in the church we must be in a local church.

Witness Lee, The Genuine Ground of Oneness, Chapter 10

At times, Christian unity can be a perplexing issue, because there are so many different things that are capable of dividing. It's not surprising that some would try to solve the problem of division or to create unity. Attempts to manufacture unity, however, are not what the Bible tells us to do.

Eph 4:1-6 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Paul urges us to walk worthy of our calling. Part of this involves working to maintain of a unity that exists by default. That is what the word 'keep' implies. Of course Christians have failed at doing their part, but the failure doesn't warrant these side attempts to create a magic formula to ensure unity.

Unity doesn't come by leaving one group for another. Unity is not a done deal. It takes effort on our part. In the early days of the LC, there are various testimonies of members "coming out of the denominations." It seems unity was equated with a move from one group to another, and in some cases, bad-mouthing past affiliations. In the LC, unity is a presumption. It is believed to exist solely because of what group and ministry members have affiliated themselves with. Thus, there is little to no effort to work to keep the unity of the Spirit.

[ZNPaaneah]

Anyone who is not in the local oneness is not actually in the oneness at all. Those who are not in a local church are not truly in the church. In order to be in the church we must be in a local church.

Witness Lee, The Genuine Ground of Oneness, Chapter 10

This is baloney. Was Antipas not in the oneness because he wasn't in the Local oneness?

Think of the OT story of Elijah, living out in the woods when Jezebel was hunting him. Was he not in the "oneness" because he wan't in the "local oneness"?

Since when does Jezebel get decide who is and is not in the oneness? Since when does Balaam get to decide who is and is not in the oneness?

In the letter to the church in Philadelphia the Lord promises the overcomers that they will be pillars in His temple and will not go out anymore. So then, being driven out of a Jezebel run church does not mean you aren't an overcomer nor does it mean you are not in the oneness. On the contrary that can be the experience that makes you a pillar at holding up the oneness.

In the letter to the church in Laodicea the Lord tells them He is outside knocking and if they go out to Him He will eat with them. Laodicea does not control the oneness, staying in that fellowship is not the oneness, the oneness is being one with the Lord who is outside.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Freedom

At times, Christian unity can be a perplexing issue, because there are so many different things that are capable of dividing. It's not surprising that some would try to solve the problem of division or to create unity. Attempts to manufacture unity, however, are not what the Bible tells us to do.

Eph 4:1-6 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Paul urges us to walk worthy of our calling. Part of this involves working to maintain of a unity that exists by default. That is what the word 'keep' implies. Of course Christians have failed at doing their part, but the failure doesn't warrant these side attempts to create a magic formula to ensure unity.

Unity doesn't come by leaving one group for another. Unity is not a done deal. It takes effort on our part. In the early days of the LC, there are various testimonies of members "coming out of the denominations." It seems unity was equated with a move from one group to another, and in some cases, bad-mouthing past affiliations. In the LC, unity is a presumption. It is believed to exist solely because of what group and ministry members have affiliated themselves with. Thus, there is little to no effort to work to keep the unity of the Spirit.

Freedom,

I'd like to take your thoughts one step further.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Good questions, huh? Here's another one: how do you keep the unity of the Spirit? If it's THAT important, how do you do it? There's got to be a way.

I can think of a few ways that start with the ten commandments. Love God with your whole being, don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, honor your parents, love one another more than you love yourseld (whoa! That's a big one!).

There's more, but here's another BIG one. If you find out that your brother is offended with you, don't even pray until you go to him and clear it up. If your brother offends you, go to him...to be reconciled.

If this seems simplistic, why don't Christians practice it? If Christians practiced Matt. 5 and Matt. 18, in addition to the ten commandments, would Christians be divided? Would denominations exist? Would we be in this mess we're in? Maybe. But if Christians don't practice and rely on these basic elements of what it is to be a Christian as our foundation, can we complain about denominations and the lack of unity of the Spirit? No. Not in good faith.

Unity of the Spirit starts here, otherwise we hardly have a leg to stand on. What would happen in the church if Christians first practiced the most fudamental commands in the Bible by confessing our sins and offenses among those with whom we are related? I believe that the unity of the Spirit will be the fruit of this.

What have we got to lose? Ya' gotta' start somewhere. How bad could it be?

Nell

(Thanks O--)

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Nell

Freedom, I'd like to take your thoughts one step further...

Nell, you have missed the obvious. You cannot keep the unity of the Spirit by following the Law.

To keep the unity of the Spirit is by the Spirit! Trying to follow the commandments is going to result in a division. There will be disunity between those who keep 8 of the commandments and those who keep all 10, or 12, or 400 of them. We have to know what it means to live by the Spirit in order to experience genuine unity. Most Christians think unity is about agreement and commonality, but it is actually about living in the one Spirit. Living in the Spirit is the only way that a Sabbath keeper (for example) could be in unity with a Sunday worshiper. If it's based upon commandments or any other thing it won't work. If we are in the Spirit we are actually in unity with every other believer no matter where we are. The practical expression of that is what.. you go to your favorite church and I go to my favorite? No, it means we meet on the common ground of locality (if we live in the same locality, that is). Many might agree with the concept of spiritual unity by being in the Spirit. But they think they can then go or do whatever they like. What they don't see is the practical unity that should result from that and this is on the basis of locality. In other words, in the new testament they had spiritual unity and also practical unity. A person who is truly in the Spirit will seek and arrive at both spiritual and practical unity. This is because the Spirit is seeking to accomplish Jesus's prayer for oneness in John 17 in a practical way. So I would say follow the Spirit for both spiritual and practical unity, not spiritual unity by the Spirit and practical unity by the Law.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Nell, you have missed the obvious. You cannot keep the unity of the Spirit by following the Law.

Evangelical, you have missed the obvious. Jesus said in Matt. 5:17-20:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

So obviously your teaching about the law is in conflict with the words of Jesus. We keep the law as given in the New Testament.

Obviously, I was not promoting a return to the Old Testament law, since I named the following: Love God with your whole being, don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, honor your parents, love one another more than you love yourself....If you find out that your brother is offended with you, don't even pray until you go to him and clear it up. If your brother offends you, go to him...to be reconciled.

Perhaps that was not obvious either, so I've referenced below more of the enhanced New Testament law from Matthew 5 and Eph. 4 as it relates to the requirements of the Old Testament law.

Note that the requirements of the New Testament Law in Matt. 5 are much greater than those of the Old Testament.

To keep the unity of the Spirit is by the Spirit! Trying to follow the commandments is going to result in a division. There will be disunity between those who keep 8 of the commandments and those who keep all 10, or 12, or 400 of them.

Where does the Bible say "unity of the Spirit is by the Spirit"?

The verse where the phrase "unity of the Spirit" is found is Eph.4:3 and it doesn't say "keep the unity of the Spirit by the Spirit". It says "in the bond of peace". Neither does Eph. 4:3 say "keep the unity of the spirit by meeting on the ground of locality". So. Where do you get this? Do you have another verse?

We have to know what it means to live by the Spirit in order to experience genuine unity. Most Christians think unity is about agreement and commonality, but it is actually about living in the one Spirit. Living in the Spirit is the only way that a Sabbath keeper (for example) could be in unity with a Sunday worshiper. If it's based upon commandments or any other thing it won't work.

Please provide verses to support this statement. Please support your statement that you actually know what "most Christians think about unity" or is this speculation?

If we are in the Spirit we are actually in unity with every other believer no matter where we are.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. So. We if we are believers, we are in spirit. No "if's" about it. Can a believer NOT be "in the Spirit"? Not according to Paul. So obviously we believers ARE in Spirit and therefore the qualifications for unity have been met...no "locality" requirement and no "practical expression" requirement.

The practical expression of that is what.. you go to your favorite church and I go to my favorite? No, it means we meet on the common ground of locality (if we live in the same locality, that is). Many might agree with the concept of spiritual unity by being in the Spirit. But they think they can then go or do whatever they like. What they don't see is the practical unity that should result from that and this is on the basis of locality.

Unsupported speculation.

In other words, in the new testament they had spiritual unity and also practical unity. A person who is truly in the Spirit will seek and arrive at both spiritual and practical unity. This is because the Spirit is seeking to accomplish Jesus's prayer for oneness in John 17 in a practical way. So I would say follow the Spirit for both spiritual and practical unity, not spiritual unity by the Spirit and practical unity by the Law.

Where does the Bible say anything about "practical unity"?

In fact, Ephesians, chapter 4, is much "bigger" than verse 3 only. It would seem that the phrase "unity of the Spirit" is not, as you seem to believe, a stand-alone teaching to isolate and build a denomination around. In the context where it occurs, it is part of a bigger picture which you have perhaps missed.

NEW TESTAMENT COMMANDMENTS/LAW IN EPHESIANS 4
Do Not Grieve the Spirit
25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”[e] for we are members of one another.
26 “Be angry, and do not sin”:[f] do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.
28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.
29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.


NEW TESTAMENT LAW IN MATTHEW 5
Murder Begins in the Heart
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[b] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Adultery in the Heart
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old,[c] ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[d] 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Marriage Is Sacred and Binding
31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality[e] causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

Jesus Forbids Oaths
33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Go the Second Mile
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’[f] 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Love Your Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[g] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[h] 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren[i] only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors[j] do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

I have addressed "unity of the Spirit" in Eph. 4:3 as it relates to following the law. Is there another verse?

Nell

[Evangelical]

Hi Nell,

you believe that "we keep the law". This is incorrect. We are no longer under law but under grace (Romans 6:14). Christ has accomplished everything for us on the cross. We cannot add or take away from that by keeping the law. If you believe that we must keep the law then you put yourself under a curse (Galatians 3:10) and Christ died in vain (Galatians 2:21). You are right that Christ taught a higher law in the New Testament. No longer just laws against murder and adultery but hatred and lust as the inward corrupting influences. However a view that we should keep these higher laws ourselves is incorrect. The higher laws are to show us that we cannot keep the laws ourselves, we must depend on grace. It doesn't matter if it is an Old Testament or a New Testament law, we depend on grace.

Regarding,

Where does the Bible say "unity of the Spirit is by the Spirit"?

I can show you.

Firstly, the fruit which is necessary to keep unity is the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of ourselves:Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

You rightly mentioned that unity is by peace. Well this peace comes from the Spirit as it is a fruit of the Spirit.

Secondly, the Bible says division is caused by walking in the flesh:

1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

I like the Aramaic version because it explicitly uses the phrase "walking in the flesh":

1 Corinthians 3:3 For you are still in the flesh, and wherever there is among you contention and division, behold, are you not carnal? You are walking in the flesh.

Now Paul said the solution to walking in the flesh is to walk by the Spirit:

Galatians 5:16 says "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

Therefore the solution to practical disunity is to walk by the Spirit.

This is why I said "unity of the Spirit is by the Spirit".

We can also think about this from a common sense and logical viewpoint.

Unity of the Spirit must have something to do with the Spirit, because it is about "the Spirit".

I don't want to stress the obvious too much, but suppose I joined some sport club, then we would have unity because of sport. If I joined a knitting club, we would have unity because of unity. Hence, Christians have unity of the Spirit because of the Spirit.

Previously I said:

If we are in the Spirit we are actually in unity with every other believer no matter where we are.

And you said:

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. So. We if we are believers, we are in spirit. No "if's" about it. Can a believer NOT be "in the Spirit"? Not according to Paul. So obviously we believers ARE in Spirit and therefore the qualifications for unity have been met...no "locality" requirement and no "practical expression" requirement.

I agree entirely. It is actually for this reason you stated (that all believers are in the same one Spirit) that I believe there should be no disunity in the church. But I am speaking of the practical experience of living in the Spirit.

I use the term "in the Spirit" in the context of Galatians 5:25:

"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (KJV).

Admittedly I could have used a different Bible version which probably more correctly says "live by the Spirit" and "walk by the Spirit", and this may have avoided your confusion.

What this means is that we cannot have practical unity unless we walk practically by (or in) the Spirit (this is something we must do and does not come automatically because we are believers).

[Exodus16]

Hello Evangelical,
In your post (forgive me for not quoting here bc I'm on my phone and that is cumbersome)
You mention "spiritual unity and practical unity"
That bothered me bc practical means everyday necessary things - how we apply spiritual principles in our daily life. I don't see any practical unity between LSM and anyone who doesn't follow that leadership & teaching - even with brother/sisters that have met together for decades prior to some split. And such divisiveness! Split after split, storm after storm! Each one leaving so many believers stranded...
When Paul spoke of those takin the name of Appollos etc. they were still very much part of the church - the body.
But now anyone who has a name on the door is in Babylon. That ain't right.
From where I stand it looks like just one more doctrine to divide.
It is an excuse. A teaching of man elevated above the commandments of God
(Love your neighbor and maintain the oneness)

[Evangelical]

Hi Exodus16,

Practical unity, for a start, is about people leaving their denominations and meeting on the basis of locality. Suppose I meet with Baptists one week and then Lutherans the next then Catholics the next.. doesn't change anything. Just as Jesus did not encourage his disciples to join the religion of his day, but met outside of it, we do the same.

You are right that those that took names were still in the one church. But the existence of denominations can and has been the result of that. Those that followed Apollos could have started the Apolloeran church, or those that followed Paul start Paulerian church. What has happened in history? Luther started the reformation but they created a thing called the Lutheran church. So the Lutheran church is the real church and Catholic isn't? So on and so forth.

So a solution to this is to simply not take names at all, everyone just consider themselves Christian. But everyone considering themselves just Christians is not a solution either, if people stay in their denominations. So we need to leave the denominations and meet on the basis of locality. Then we have the proper ground for true unity.

[Exodus16]

"Practical unity, for a start, is about people leaving their denominations and meeting on the basis of locality."
Nope. Practical and unity are both basic English words that have meaning.
By putting a requirement on believers (leaving their denominations) this concept becomes a "get out of jail free card" there is no need for those who are on the proper ground to reach out to other believers in any real/practical way.
in this thread there are many high sounding words that don't match what we have observed now and in the past regarding the LCs being one with the believers all around them.
Here are some practical examples of unity of saints that began ecumenically
- at the end of the block where I lived in high school one meeting hall was shared by Seven Day Adventist and another Sunday meeting group. This arrangement seemed comical but they made it work as both sides could see "he who is not against us is for us"
- in a Methodist joint in the country the pastor was dying of cancer, nearby denominations joined them in prayer, sent food and flowers and even picked up the burdens (the pastor had been arranging donations for delivery - the members of other denominations filled the need.)
- two moms met at their kids baseball games prayed for one another and each other's families (was the ground of their unity was Christ or the baseball diamond?)
These are practical examples. I can see them and point to it. Even if the saints involved don't have the teaching or the words, they look around them and act as one with other saints around them. Contrast this with the LSM who have all these high sounding teachings but have no real care for those around them who do not follow Christ in their prescribed method. This is observable.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Practical unity, for a start, is about people leaving their denominations and meeting on the basis of locality. Suppose I meet with Baptists one week and then Lutherans the next then Catholics the next.. doesn't change anything. Just as Jesus did not encourage his disciples to join the religion of his day, but met outside of it, we do the same.

Your definition of "practical unity" places demands on believers that have nothing to do with "unity."

Meeting on the basis of "locality" is basically a farce, since upwards of 90% of LC members do not live in the city associated with the "name" of their church.

The blatant hypocrisy of the demands of your teaching was exposed for all to see during the recent Ohio quarantines, divisions, and lawsuits. Christians living in the same city, meeting in the same LC, loving each other warmly for many years were forced to decide whether they sided with LSM or not! Where is the oneness there?

LSM then sent their operatives from affiliate DCP (Defense and Confirmation of the gospel Project, what a joke) to assist local dissidents to disrupt meetings and file lawsuits.

The moral of the story: Oneness and locality are merely a ruse, loyalty to LSM is everything.