Different weights and measures

[aron]

Leviticus 19:35-36

'You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity. 'You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt."

Deuteronomy 25:13-16

"You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a large and a small. "You shall not have in your house differing measures, a large and a small. "You shall have a full and just weight; you shall have a full and just measure, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you"

Amos 8:4-6

Hear this, you who trample the needy, to do away with the humble of the land, saying, "When will the new moon be over, So that we may sell grain, And the sabbath, that we may open the wheat market, To make the bushel smaller and the shekel bigger, And to cheat with dishonest scales, So as to buy the helpless for money And the needy for a pair of sandals, And that we may sell the refuse of the wheat?"

Hosea 12:7-8

A merchant, in whose hands are false balances, He loves to oppress. And Ephraim said, "Surely I have become rich, I have found wealth for myself; In all my labors they will find in me No iniquity, which would be sin."

Micah 6:10-13

"Is there yet a man in the wicked house, Along with treasures of wickedness And a short measure that is cursed? "Can I justify wicked scales And a bag of deceptive weights?"

Proverbs 20:10

Differing weights and differing measures, Both of them are abominable to the LORD.

Proverbs 11:1

A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, But a just weight is His delight.

Proverbs 16:11

A just balance and scales belong to the LORD; All the weights of the bag are His concern.

Proverbs 20:23

Differing weights are an abomination to the LORD, And a false scale is not good.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

aron,

The irony of your last two notes confirms what I observed before. You want it both ways.

On the one hand, you refuse to condemn the in your face IDOLATRY in the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church for by doing so, according to your own words, you would condemn yourself because you are not perfect.

On the other hand you brazenly condemn what you characterize as idolatry in the local churches because apparently you are perfect after all.

And the duck liver pate that tops the irony all off is your question "Whatever happened to, "Consider others more highly than youself"? "

No. What I do here is point out the irony of a ministry that lives by condemnation, and separation, then wipes its mouth and says, "We did no wrong". By what you judge, you yourself are judged. Only God has the true weights.

Of course I'm imperfect. My only way out is to forgive, that God may forgive me. What I do to others will be done to me. I forgive the local churchers, and greet them in the street. The Mormons I do not. I actually DO draw a line, somewhere. I have to. But you draw a line around your toes, and say everyone outside it is in division, and harlotry. What kind of spirit is at work, here?

Proverbs 30:20 "This is the way of an adulterous woman: She eats and wipes her mouth and says, 'I've done nothing wrong.'

In God's eyes we're all adulterous. "There is not one pure; no not one." But if we confess and believe into the Lord Jesus, who is the pure, obedient Lamb of God, our sins are forgiven, and let go. God sees the blood of Jesus on the cross. Now, how to go on? By judgment, condemnation, incessant criticism? Or by bearing with one another, in spite of our many faults?

Paul wrote, "In which each was called, in this remain." Watchman Nee instead, after being called, headed for the exit, and built a new sheep pen where his own rules of convenience were king; rules which applied differently to different people, like "Acting God" and "Drunken Noah" versus the "small potatoes". Suddenly we were respecters of persons. And rules changed as the needs on the ground changed. It wasn't a level playing field at all - first it was autonomy and local-ness, then it was consolidation and the "Jerusalem principle". Rules were found and waved in the air, to fit the needs and conveniences of the day. Then the next day they were forgotten, or contravened by new "truths".

Paul wrote, "Does the eye condemn the ear for being different?" But in the local church of Lee we all had to be "absolutely identical", with "no differences whatsoever", quote-unquote, because that made Witness Lee feel more secure. His comfort zone was increased if we all wore identical matching blazers and ties. In my "locality" we couldn't even give a conference using the wrong Witness Lee books. We were told, "Re-speak the latest conference", and to make sure everything was as in Anaheim, we were sent guides and helpers. Then they dunned us for the plane tickets.

But of course in the local church we don't have rules, do we? We're organic. No organization. Our training is just in "life" and "truth".

Uh-huh. Sure it is. "Each one does what is right in his own eyes." I am offering you a different set of eyes. Not God's eyes, I admit. But neither was Lee or Nee perfect. All of us are part of the many eyes. If you reject all but yours you become blind. So please, join the larger Christian conversation.

aron,

The irony is that you talk about forgiveness, understanding, and members of the Body all having their place. Then without skipping a beat you launch a tirade against the local churches accusing them of adultery and heresy and idolatry.

You probably don't realize it and may never because the offenses you mentioned and still apparently harbor that occurred in your patch decades ago have become part of your constitution molding and framing the way you think about those things, your perceptions, and how you rationalize your beliefs. In short, those offenses apparently were not dealt with and therefore, it is perfectly consistent in your mind to write about forgiving and yet not forgive, to teach that every member has its place and yet dismissing the place of the local churches and their members, to call for a heart for understanding yet exercising a spirit of judgement, condemnation, and incessant criticism to use your terms.

And yet the most obvious idolatry you will not condemn. You will not draw a line that condemns the idolatry in the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, and others like them.

Those are examples of your use of different weights and measures.

[UntoHim]

My friend Drake,

Not sure why you're so obsessed with the problems within the Catholic and Lutheran denominations, but the main theme of our forum is the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church of Witness Lee, and the founder, Watchman Nee. I understand why you would want to distract us from the main theme, but there are numerous Internet forums in which they would welcome discussions about all the problems in teaching, practice and history of these two sects/denominations/religions.

While I'm sure aron appreciates the free psychoanalysis you have provided, you're taking us off the beaten path my man. If you want to defend the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church(es), Go for it! Have at it! Knock yourself out! But don't drag the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church or any other sect/denomination/religion into our discussions as an attempt to avoid/evade addressing the legitimate issues and concerns regarding Nee/Lee/Local Church/LSM etc.

Carry on.
-

[Ohio]

Before we hear any more about idolatry, can we please have a definition of idols/idolatry, or at least some guidelines.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

LSM does not "need it so badly" as you suggest. CRI and the Christian community were wrong, and that was more or less their admission of guilt for lying and slandering the local churches, hence the title "we were wrong".

And yet when Lee said "we were wrong" regarding receiving the brothers, that can be ignored? Why so selective?

CRI's admission of malfeasance was reprinted and passed to every local church. Witness Lee's admission of malfeasance was. . . buried? Along with him?

And I still don't get why CRI's imprimatur is pulled out of the drawer, whether or not the conversation included it, as verification of LSM/LC orthodox credibility, when CRI's receiving other Christian groups as also credible, genuine, legitimate corporate expressions of NT Christian faith is stubbornly ignored. Why does approval work only when it's in your direction? That simply makes no sense.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

And yet when Lee said "we were wrong" regarding receiving the brothers, that can be ignored? Why so selective?

CRI's admission of malfeasance was reprinted and passed to every local church. Witness Lee's admission of malfeasance was. . . buried? Along with him?

And I still don't get why CRI's imprimatur is pulled out of the drawer, whether or not the conversation included it, as verification of LSM/LC orthodox credibility, when CRI's receiving other Christian groups as also credible, genuine, legitimate corporate expressions of NT Christian faith is stubbornly ignored. Why does approval work only when it's in your direction? That simply makes no sense.

Well, when someone does a 6 year research study on "Lee's repentance" I guess you can call that "even".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

aron,

The irony is that you talk about forgiveness, understanding, and members of the Body all having their place. Then without skipping a beat you launch a tirade against the local churches accusing them of adultery and heresy and idolatry.

You probably don't realize it and may never because the offenses you mentioned and still apparently harbor that occurred in your patch decades ago have become part of your constitution molding and framing the way you think about those things, your perceptions, and how you rationalize your beliefs. In short, those offenses apparently were not dealt with and therefore, it is perfectly consistent in your mind to write about forgiving and yet not forgive, to teach that every member has its place and yet dismissing the place of the local churches and their members, to call for a heart for understanding yet exercising a spirit of judgement, condemnation, and incessant criticism to use your terms.

And yet the most obvious idolatry you will not condemn. You will not draw a line that condemns the idolatry in the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, and others like them.

Those are examples of your use of different weights and measures.

To follow up with Drake's "logic" here, think about how Witness Lee harbored offenses against those in Christianity for 70 years after he left those poor people. Then he told myriads of us "moo cows" again and again just how pitiful they all were in almost every one of his messages.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

aron,

The irony is that you talk about forgiveness, understanding, and members of the Body all having their place. Then without skipping a beat you launch a tirade against the local churches accusing them of adultery and heresy and idolatry. .

Okay, mea culpa. I didn't define adultery - "having another spouse". We were betrothed to Christ, now we get betrothed to Christ and the church, and the ministry, and the high peak "vision of the age." God recedes further and further away. Just like in the RCC. Jesus is a statue in the corner, or a baby sitting on Mommy's lap (you know that one - the Mother of God.) Christ in the LC is whatever the Oracle needs it to be today. We never got the "Baby Jesus" but we got pretty much every other variation, and 'flavor'.

Heresy. I don't think I ever called the LC heretical. Sorry, you misunderstand me. I have issues with the "deification" idea as a matter of truth, per se. It's too speculative, and distracts the weak ones. No, better stick to "love your neighbor as yourself" and let the theologians (quietly) sort through the deification idea. But I didn't call it, or Witness Lee, heretical. If I ever wrote that, I don't remember, and would apologize for the mis-step.

Idolatry. "Little children, guard yourselves against idols". What is an idol? A false god. Made in our own images, or something nearly so, according to our own imaginations and fears. When John wrote, "Little children, guard yourselves from idols" I don't think he meant literal graven images. I daresay the 1st century Christians were too sophisticated for that. Plus Jewish practice was there, already suppressing that kind of behavior. No, John was referencing the subtle one, slipping little 'near-god' things in, good things, attractive things. The LC of Lee is rife with that stuff.

I'll give you one: "The Age of Spiritual Giants is over, it's the Age of Small Potatoes". That's what one of the current Blendeds said to us, post-Lee. To make an age center around the person of a fellow sinner is idolatrous.

Originally Posted by Drake

You probably don't realize it and may never because the offenses you mentioned and still apparently harbor that occurred in your patch decades ago have become part of your constitution molding and framing the way you think about those things, your perceptions, and how you rationalize your beliefs. In short, those offenses apparently were not dealt with and therefore, it is perfectly consistent in your mind to write about forgiving and yet not forgive, to teach that every member has its place and yet dismissing the place of the local churches and their members, to call for a heart for understanding yet exercising a spirit of judgement, condemnation, and incessant criticism to use your terms.

And yet the most obvious idolatry you will not condemn. You will not draw a line that condemns the idolatry in the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, and others like them.

Those are examples of your use of different weights and measures.

Yes, those offenses were probably not dealt with, and I apologize for wracking yourself, Evangelical, and all our dear readers through the mud of mine own making. But my theme consistently has been that Watchman Nee and Witness Lee did the same thing - projected all their unresolved fears onto the larger population, and dragged them hither and yon. Local Church culture was just as bad as the culture condemned everywhere else. Just as natural. Just as fallen. Look at the fruit! Turmoils, storms, rebellions.

I do apologize for my failures, and my accompanying "bitter spirit", and forgive WN and WL for theirs. Thankfully nobody has anointed me the Apostle of the Age and created a movement to follow me. Then we'd all be in big trouble! Things are bad enough, already.

BTW I have no trouble condemning the obvious idolatry. Yet I still receive the believers. And it's the subtle idolatry we really need to guard against. That's the most pernicious of all.