Guru Papers

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Renee

Ronnie Chan was a board of directors member on the auditing committee of Enron and profited from its fall by selling his shares before it crashed for over 800K.

Not a problem; it's called "fleecing Egypt" when it's done to unbelievers, and "appealing to Caesar" when it's done to fellow believers. Or, because there is no "good or bad" in the economy of God you can just go with the flow of life. It's also much sweeter when there is a flow of cash associated with the flow of life!

[aron]

The guru's "getting" and self-enhancement are masked by images of enlightenment and selflessness and thus are made unconscious. Once his purity and hence superiority are taken for granted, it is assumed that he deserves to be "getting" precisely because he is thought enlightened. He can thus reprimand his disciple for the very activity he was involved in on a far grander scale without it seeming hypocritical. Who gets and who gives is never questioned because "spiritual" values mask what is really going on.

The Ascended Master (AM) can get some (businesses, donations, cash, material goods, servants, adoration, obedience) because the AM is "above it all" and thus incorruptible. Only the guru WL continually lived within the veil, everyone else was at best occasionally there, and then often only 'positionally'; i.e. because we were 'under the covering' of the AM.

But the AM was 'dispositionally perfected', as it were, able to live 'in spirit' continually. Even the Bible occasionally was written by fallen humans, according to their concepts of right and wrong, but the AM's teachings were always of revelatory and oracular status.

Once this is received uncritically, and made unconscious, then the would-be guru can lead you down the primrose path. They've got the hook in you, and can pull you wherever they want you to go. And you never see it, because you don't see the hook.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

The Ascended Master (AM) can get some (businesses, donations, cash, material goods, servants, adoration, obedience) because the AM is "above it all" and thus incorruptible. Only the guru WL continually lived within the veil, everyone else was at best occasionally there, and then often only 'positionally'; i.e. because we were 'under the covering' of the AM.
...
And you never see it, because you don't see the hook.

In the LC, they are harsh critics of Christians or groups who have been distracted by issues such as materialism. As a matter of fact, I was just reading about the wife of the founder of the Trinity Broadcasting Network who died. Their Newport Beach home is for sale to the tune of $4.6 million: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/c...e-newport.html

So you read this stuff, and it's hard not to criticize these kinds of groups. You then look at groups like the LC and there isn't an immediate appearance of materialism, so it is assumed that everything is okay. Lee didn't drive a convertible (or even drive at all?). He didn't have a multi-million dollar Newport Beach home. So to the unsuspecting eye, the LC might seem perfectly normal.

Thus, LCers wrongly assumed that such a fate would never fall upon Lee or any leaders. For current members, I'm sure they could never even entertain the possibility that businesses like Daystar happened. These lapses in judgement were supposedly something that was an exclusive problem with outsiders. In essence, no one saw the hook.

But Lee himself didn't need to be motivated by materialism. He had a family that he desired to take care of. He had sons who needed funding for their debauchery. For whatever reasons, Lee felt compelled to help them out. So like it or not, Lee was also motivated by what his ministry could provide to his family (prosperity).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

But Lee himself didn't need to be motivated by materialism. He had a family that he desired to take care of. He had sons who needed funding for their debauchery. For whatever reasons, Lee felt compelled to help them out. So like it or not, Lee was also motivated by what his ministry could provide to his family (prosperity).

Had Witness Lee just "stolen" a couple million a year to take care of his kids, I might not have a problem with that.

But to place them in leadership positions, with a trail of destruction everywhere they went, is quite disturbing. Then Lee manipulated the churches into buying his sons' "products" and "services." Those blendeds who became today's SUPER-BLENDEDS did so by kissing up to his son Phillip.

Disgusting!

[NewManLiving]

The chronic problem with WL "fleecing the flock" is a long and sordid one, reaching back into his early days in Taiwan. The problem with WL's ego and temper also has a long history, extending back to his relationship with Kaung, Sparks and others. Any honest person who has read the accounts and testimonies of many sincere brothers and sisters in Christ would certainly have to admit to this. WL had no peers because he eliminated them and elevated himself. In my observation his character never did change throughout his ministry. Perhaps on his death bed he had a sincere repentance.

[aron]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

The chronic problem with WL "fleecing the flock" is a long and sordid one, reaching back into his early days in Taiwan. The problem with WL's ego and temper also has a long history, extending back to his relationship with Kaung, Sparks and others. Any honest person who has read the accounts and testimonies of many sincere brothers and sisters in Christ would certainly have to admit to this. WL had no peers because he eliminated them and elevated himself. In my observation his character never did change throughout his ministry. Perhaps on his death bed he had a sincere repentance.

There was a song that was popular in the early ('68-'72) days,

"Oh home in the church, where we’ve ended our search, with the brothers rejoicing all day; where Christ is our life, and we’re through with all strife, now we’re home. Hallelujah to stay! Chorus: Oh, home in the church, yes, it’s here that we’ve ended our search, and through all our days we will shout to His praise, Hallelujah! for Christ and the church."

Today I see that song and I'm like, "Whaaaa. . . ?!?! . . . 'We've ended our search' . . . ?!?!"

Jesus taught, "Seek and you will find", and "Seek first the kingdom of God". . . did WL actually convince us to abandon our seeking, and to end our search?!?

Apparently that's what happened - we ended, or gave up on, our search. Absolutely amazing, in hindsight; WL convinced thousands of Jesus People to quit seeking, that they were home in his church. But our home is really in the heavens with our Father! Even Paul wrote, "I have not yet laid hold". Yet WL had us lay hold, and laid hold of us, through something he called the "local ground", which was merely a vehicle for his "local church", later to be replaced by "the Body" and then "the Ministry".

Yes Philip told Nathaniel, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." (John 1:45). Yes they did find such a Man. But what did Philip and Nathaniel find - a Man in a palace, or a Man selling merchandise? A Man fund-raising for a training campus and convention center? Or did they rather find a Man out on the street, with no place to lay His head (Luke 9:58)? An elusive Man, who'd continually withdraw from the crowds trying to make Him an earthly king(John 6:15)?

Christ is indeed the answer; He's surely the Way. Yet this answer, this way is a path, while here on earth - see e.g. Matt 4:19: "Come, follow Me". The way is not a fixed place, or static object. Even as you approach this One, of Whom Moses and the prophets indeed wrote, He recedes before you, inviting you to follow. This is His way of going before, and leading you back home to the Father. If you set down and rest, satisfied, you'll never make it. But WL convinced us to abandon our search, and to presumptuously sit down and declare, "We're home".

The danger of Babylon is that it convinces you to set up three tents, and stay there (Matt 17:4). Egypt is bad, but at least you know that you're not at home. Babylon tries to convince you that you're home, that you should abandon your search. Babylon lulls you into passivity. "Enjoy". Instead of the hungry, wandering, heaven-oriented, seeking church it becomes the complacent, torpid, earthly, self-oriented "churchy" church; with fat, heavy eyes, carefully minding its seating arrangements and ornamental trim.

Back to NML's post, above: WL knew what he was about; he was the same man who'd bullied and shamed the Shanghai elders into taking the sinful Nee back as unquestioned leader, who'd been caught smuggling gold. But now, coming into the USA, he was slow and careful. First, he convinced the frogs that a nice stainless steel pot was preferable to that muddy old pond. So clean, shiny! Enjoy! Then he slowly, slowly turned up the heat.

Our journey should be unremitting, while we dwell here in the flesh. Yet WL convinced the Jesus People of the late 1960s and early 1970s to "sit down and eat and drink, and to get up and play", a la Exodus 32:6; cf 1 Cor 10:7. The idol was human culture, carefully manicured and disguised. Only one unquestioned and unquestionable leader, only one 'apostle' per age. One Ascended Master, and the rest being Small Potatoes. One Guru, who lives within the veil, whose every word has oracular status; the rest, without exception, are poor, pitiful, darkened and ignorant. Mooing cows, WL called us, and we passively absorbed all the calumnies he heaped on our heads.

The local ground and the local church were merely engines, devices to separate the flock, thence to be lulled into lethargy and stupor. Then WL could sell them his Rainbow Booklets and calendars. The merchandizer finally found the perfect market. Guru-hood.

But as NML says, maybe on his death-bed he had a sincere repentance. If so, may we all likewise be blessed, with a broken spirit and a contrite heart. Mea culpa; I was there too - promoting "the latest speaking" as if it were manna from the throne of God. I was there, supposedly at home in WL's "local church". But then the Holy Spirit thrust me back into the wilderness, thanks be to God. The hunger and thirst eventually returned, and the journey continued. Praise God!

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by aron

WL knew what he was about; he was the same man who'd bullied and shamed the Shanghai elders into taking the sinful Nee back as unquestioned leader, who'd been caught smuggling gold. But now, coming into the USA, he was slow and careful. First, he convinced the frogs that a nice stainless steel pot was preferable to that muddy old pond. So clean, shiny! Enjoy! Then he slowly, slowly turned up the heat.

Haha, too funny 😄 I've often wondered how some of the early writing of Lee could devolve so thoroughly.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Had Witness Lee just "stolen" a couple million a year to take care of his kids, I might not have a problem with that.

But to place them in leadership positions, with a trail of destruction everywhere they went, is quite disturbing. Then Lee manipulated the churches into buying his sons' "products" and "services." Those blendeds who became today's SUPER-BLENDEDS did so by kissing up to his son Phillip.

Disgusting!

I would preface what I have to say by the lack of transparency regarding LSM finances leaves open allegations of impropriety even if brothers were careful to avoid any entanglements. Since there is no transparency, Sal's taped conversation with Witness Lee is as close to evidence of impropriety as there is in North America.
Say for example the property on Ball Road was indeed a gift from a wealthy Chinese brother on which the LSM/Church in Anaheim building was completed 1976/1977. Suppose Witness Lee decided to sell the property prior to the structure being built with free labor and give the proceeds to his sons, I'd have no problem with it.
However when thousands of brothers and sisters across the earth tithe money to their localities. Their localities in turn give money to LSM. In turn Witness Lee directs LSM to give money to his children. That I would have a problem with. Many brother and sisters being deceived LSM is for the churches and for the Lord's move on the earth when in fact it is used as a family enterprise under the guise as a non-profit religious entity.
Now that is disgusting. Even more disgusting are brothers who knew about it and looked the other way. Whatever happened to the money from North America intended for the Linko project in Taiwan?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

I would preface what I have to say by the lack of transparency regarding LSM finances leaves open allegations of impropriety even if brothers were careful to avoid any entanglements. Since there is no transparency, Sal's taped conversation with Witness Lee is as close to evidence of impropriety as there is in North America.
Say for example the property on Ball Road was indeed a gift from a wealthy Chinese brother on which the LSM/Church in Anaheim building was completed 1976/1977. Suppose Witness Lee decided to sell the property prior to the structure being built with free labor and give the proceeds to his sons, I'd have no problem with it.
However when thousands of brothers and sisters across the earth tithe money to their localities. Their localities in turn give money to LSM. In turn Witness Lee directs LSM to give money to his children. That I would have a problem with. Many brother and sisters being deceived LSM is for the churches and for the Lord's move on the earth when in fact it is used as a family enterprise under the guise as a non-profit religious entity.
Now that is disgusting. Even more disgusting are brothers who knew about it and looked the other way. Whatever happened to the money from North America intended for the Linko project in Taiwan?

Just within the last year, various Local Churches of Witness Lee in Southern California all donated money to purchase a camp. I heard that the purchase price was in the $8-10 million range, with part of that coming from donations, part of that from the proceeds of a sale of an existing camp, and the rest from loans. I also don't have a problem with anyone donating time/labor/money for such purposes, but the concern that came to my mind is ownership. Real estate is lucrative. Especially when the initial investment and subsequent improvements come free. It's not the local churches who end up participating in a collective ownership. It is a particular publishing house, likely through some type of front organization. That is a scam. They reap the benefit of those who are willing to freely give without a second thought.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Just within the last year, various Local Churches of Witness Lee in Southern California all donated money to purchase a camp. I heard that the purchase price was in the $8-10 million range, with part of that coming from donations, part of that from the proceeds of a sale of an existing camp, and the rest from loans. I also don't have a problem with anyone donating time/labor/money for such purposes, but the concern that came to my mind is ownership. Real estate is lucrative. Especially when the initial investment and subsequent improvements come free. It's not the local churches who end up participating in a collective ownership. It is a particular publishing house, likely through some type of front organization. That is a scam. They reap the benefit of those who are willing to freely give without a second thought.

LSM is like the US government trying to convince us that when they are wealthy then we all are too.