"God in life and nature but not in the Godhead"

[UntoHim]

Terry, I'm sure you've heard the infamous recorded phone call between Witness Lee and Sal Benoit regarding the Daystar debacle. Benoit clearly exposed the whole situation in the conversation, and yes, it was very much like a ponzi scheme, and yes, Witness Lee was at the very head of the whole thing. He held and controlled the purse strings. Basically, Lee set up a dummy company (Phosphorous in Taiwan) to evade the payment of legitimate American corporate taxes. To make matters worse (as if it could be worse) he also involved some other entity which he named "Overseas Christian Stewards" which was supposedly involved in "the Lord's work overseas". The whole thing was a huge tangled up, unethical, illegal mess that shamed the Lord's name, caused many dear saints to be shaken in their faith, and simply exposed Witness Lee as a fraud.

The recorded conversation is still up on YouTube:
Conversation Between Witness Lee and Sal Benoit concerning DayStar
This Youtube also includes the flow chart which Matt Anderson put together so that us some of us stupid, gullible Americans can get a real visual of what happened.
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[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This Youtube also includes the flow chart which Matt Anderson put together so that us some of us stupid, gullible Americans can get a real visual of what happened.

The king-dum of Lee: "Me king, you dumb." He said we were stupid, mooing cows who couldn't dance to the piano masters Nee and Lee. I remember how we were all grateful that the Great Man Himself even bothered to try and teach us, even though we knew we probably weren't going to get it - it simply was too high.

The money laundering thing - hey, everybody makes mistakes. Nobody's perfect. Right?

Some day the truth about what went down in Taipei will come out. Then everyone will realize that DayStar wasn't some irregularity, a blip in an otherwise spotless resume. Rather, it was part of a larger pattern of behavior, a repetition of "works" that expose Witness Lee for what he was. These repeated, deliberate actions testify more clearly than any book or conference ever could. The man wasn't even qualified to be an elder in a local assembly.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Terry, I'm sure you've heard the infamous recorded phone call between Witness Lee and Sal Benoit regarding the Daystar debacle. Benoit clearly exposed the whole situation in the conversation, and yes, it was very much like a ponzi scheme, and yes, Witness Lee was at the very head of the whole thing. He held and controlled the purse strings. Basically, Lee set up a dummy company (Phosphorous in Taiwan) to evade the payment of legitimate American corporate taxes. To make matters worse (as if it could be worse) he also involved some other entity which he named "Overseas Christian Stewards" which was supposedly involved in "the Lord's work overseas". The whole thing was a huge tangled up, unethical, illegal mess that shamed the Lord's name, caused many dear saints to be shaken in their faith, and simply exposed Witness Lee as a fraud.

The recorded conversation is still up on YouTube:
Conversation Between Witness Lee and Sal Benoit concerning DayStar
This Youtube also includes the flow chart which Matt Anderson put together so that us some of us stupid, gullible Americans can get a real visual of what happened.
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I'd say Daystar was a fraud, unethical, and illegal.
Daystar was very much close to being a Ponzi Scheme, but not quite. Based on the definition from:
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/ponzischeme.asp

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investing scam promising high rates of return with little risk to investors. The Ponzi scheme generates returns for older investors by acquiring new investors. This scam actually yields the promised returns to earlier investors, as long as there are more new investors. These schemes usually collapse on themselves when the new investments stop.

Had original Daystar investors been paid a return on their investment, then I would say yes, Daystar was a Ponzi scheme.

[UntoHim]

Opps, you caught me Terry. I must have played hooky the day in law school that they covered all the different kinds of financial malfeasance fraud (the law school I never attended). What I wish I was really wrong about is the fact that Witness Lee committed some sort of major financial malfeasance with church related funds...and the real tragedy is that DayStar was NOT the first time, and I suspect it wasn't the last.

I also wish that it didn't take a secretly recorded conversation to find out what Witness Lee was really like when he got caught with his hands in the cookie jar, especially finding out that Lee thought the cookie jar and all the cookies in it actually belonged to him. When he was on the podium in all those trainings and conferences, he seemed to imply that the cookie jar and all the cookies actually belonged to God. Silly us for actually believing such a thing!

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[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I also wish that it didn't take a secretly recorded conversation to find out what Witness Lee was really like when he got caught with his hands in the cookie jar, especially finding out that Lee thought the cookie jar and all the cookies in it actually belonged to him. When he was on the podium in all those trainings and conferences, he seemed to imply that the cookie jar and all the cookies actually belonged to God. Silly us for actually believing such a thing!

Let's just come out and say the cookie jar is LSM. When churches pass money to LSM, it is Lee's will to exercise how it's spent. Of course it was convincing to portray the message as giving to LSM is for the Lord's move....
As for the recorded conversation, it's part of history to show the man away from the podium.

[JJ]

Regarding the title of this thread, I found an interesting nugget while finishing up a reading through Genesis. I've bolded a part that stood out to me.

Genesis 50: 14-21
After he had buried his father, Joseph returned to Egypt, he and his brothers, and all who had gone up with him to bury his father.
When Joseph’s brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “What if Joseph bears a grudge against us and pays us back in full for all the wrong which we did to him!” So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father charged before he died, saying, ‘Thus you shall say to Joseph, “Please forgive, I beg you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, for they did you wrong.”’ And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” And Joseph wept when they spoke to him. Then his brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.” But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in God’s place? As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.” So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

Now that's what real maturity looks like. Both repentance for wrong-doing, forgiveness, and not overstepping ones' bounds.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by JJ

Now that's what real maturity looks like. Both repentance for wrong-doing, forgiveness, and not overstepping ones' bounds.

Thanks JJ for this wonderful post. Repentance and forgiveness are two of the pillars of our Christian life. What really stands out to me in this passage is that even though Joseph's brothers repentance was really more out of fear for what he could or would do to pay them back, and was hardly sincere, Joseph accepted their repentance anyway. It seems that Joseph left it up to God to judge and accept their repentance as sufficient and sincere enough.

This soft and tender heart displayed by Joseph really represents what God is like "in life and nature". All the repetition by rote of so-called "high peak" teachings mean absolutely nothing without a heart that has been truly changed by the love and mercy of God. Joseph also seemed to have learned something extremely profound about God's sovereignty - "you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good". Only someone who has had their heart truly changed and their will submitted to God and his sovereignty could have comprehended such insight to the very "life and nature" of God himself.

Eventually, all who are truly regenerated will be transformed into a totally new creation and will be shining forth in God's Kingdom with his life and with his nature. The apostle John says it best: "and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2) For now, for anyone one to say that we are "becoming God in life and nature" is just so much theological gobbledygook, and at best is totally unhelpful, and at worse leads to what we see in our very dear, but very confused brothers and sisters in the Local Church. May God have mercy.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Joseph also seemed to have learned something extremely profound about God's sovereignty - "you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good". Only someone who has had their heart truly changed and their will submitted to God and his sovereignty could have comprehended such insight to the very "life and nature" of God himself.

This reminds me of the Lord's word, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."

[Ohio]

Then his brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.” But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in God’s place? As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.” So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

So the children of Israel in Genesis 50.18 tried to make Joseph the "acting God" in fulfillment of his God-given dream in 37.5-10? Very interesting!

But unlike the prophet Samuel, (Anybody notice that Lee's sons were almost as bad as Samuel's? And for that matter, Eli's too! After Eli's sons, Samuel became God's prophet. After Samuel's sons, Israel pined for a king.) whom Lee claimed was the "acting God" on earth, Joseph rejected such nonsense.

So did Paul (and Barnabas) in Acts 14.11-15, who made it quite clear to the superstitious natives that, "we also are men like you!"