My Testimony

[New Beginnings]

Hello,

I would really appreciate some input on what the process of sanctification looks like apart from the LC doctrine. My understanding here is quite muddled. I keep cycling back to old habits of thought that aren't so helpful. I understand that sanctification is an individual process and there is no one-size-fits-all equation that leads to a glorious end.

But what should sanctification look like?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Hello,

I would really appreciate some input on what the process of sanctification looks like apart from the LC doctrine. My understanding here is quite muddled. I keep cycling back to old habits of thought that aren't so helpful. I understand that sanctification is an individual process and there is no one-size-fits-all equation that leads to a glorious end.

But what should sanctification look like?

Maybe it looks like Peter who after denying the Lord goes on to give his life for the church. Or maybe the Peter who eats with dirty Gentiles when the religious Jerusalem brothers from James are away, but then pulls away from the and is rebuked by Paul. Or maybe it looks like dear brother Mark who deserts Paul and Barnabus and is refused to be allowed to go on another trip with Paul, who the ends up writing the book of Mark. Or maybe the crooked tax collector who after a meal with Jesus proclaims he will repay and give half his riches to the poor. I don't think it looks like a bunch of blended snobs charging a $150 dollars to attend a series man-made sermons twice a year.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

But what should sanctification look like?

Originally Posted by HERn

Maybe it looks like Peter who after denying the Lord goes on to give his life for the church. Or maybe the Peter who eats with dirty Gentiles when the religious Jerusalem brothers from James are away, but then pulls away from the and is rebuked by Paul. Or maybe it looks like dear brother Mark who deserts Paul and Barnabus and is refused to be allowed to go on another trip with Paul, who the ends up writing the book of Mark. Or maybe the crooked tax collector who after a meal with Jesus proclaims he will repay and give half his riches to the poor.

I don't think it looks like a bunch of blended snobs charging a $150 dollars to attend a series man-made sermons twice a year.

Brother HERn made some great points here. Each example he cited from the Bible involved some brother's failure and then genuine repentance, which gave the Spirit of God great opportunity to sanctify him by faith.

LC sanctification, however, like many other legalistic, man-pleasing organizations, involves readily identifiable human behavior which can be observed and approved by others. In other words, Ohio used to be "sanctified" because I made all the meetings and functioned in every one, I served at the meeting hall untold hours, I gave hospitality, I went to trainings and conferences, and I no longer drank, smoke, swore, questioned the brothers, nor bought new cars. I was a "good" holy brother.

Do you see the difficulty New Beginnings? The Bible says that God looks at the heart. Most of what we call sanctification is merely behavioral.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Hello,

I would really appreciate some input on what the process of sanctification looks like apart from the LC doctrine. My understanding here is quite muddled. I keep cycling back to old habits of thought that aren't so helpful. I understand that sanctification is an individual process and there is no one-size-fits-all equation that leads to a glorious end.

But what should sanctification look like?

I'd recommend you use Bible Gateway, Bible Hub, or Blue Letter Bible to do a Bible Word search on the words "holy", "sanctify", and "sanctification" (all have the same root word in Greek), and read as many of the verses as you can (there are many!) to see how the Bible defines sanctification.

Warning, that will be a lot of work, but it might get you out of the weeds on this. I've done such a Word search before, and just wanted to bow down to my God and savior Jesus, and beg His Holy Spirit to sanctify me from my filthiness.

[NewManLiving]

For me Ephesians 4:17 - 5:21 is a good start. I must not forget that I have put on Christ. I am a New Creation. Thus my avatar ( contemporary definition ) NewManLiving. It was intentional to remind me that even though I am crucified with Christ and my old man is in the grave, there is still a war going on. I can still choose to live by the old or the new man. I have found that that my old-man decisions always remove God's peace. Notice I did not say good feelings. We are more likely to resort to the old-man when we don't feel so great or are in a dry zone. But we should always have the peace of God regardless of how bad things seem or how good or lousy we feel. I always know when I am not pleasing to God because I loose that deep peace ( that is far beyond good or bad feelings) and go and hide in the woods like Adam - not wanting to talk or see God. It's sad I know but I'm sometimes in the woods But I don't like it there and the Lord comes looking for me after a while. His compassion and my confession restore His peace. Sometimes with good feelings but more often the trial continues but always with the peace. There was never a truer saying than: To set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. To set the mind on the flesh is death. I have a lot of experience on both ends, unfortunately, more on the latter side, but God is able to do above all that I ask or think, so I leave it to Him

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

For me Ephesians 4:17 - 5:21 is a good start. I must not forget that I have put on Christ. I am a New Creation. Thus my avatar ( contemporary definition ) NewManLiving. It was intentional to remind me that even though I am crucified with Christ and my old man is in the grave, there is still a war going on. I can still choose to live by the old or the new man. I have found that that my old-man decisions always remove God's peace. Notice I did not say good feelings. We are more likely to resort to the old-man when we don't feel so great or are in a dry zone. But we should always have the peace of God regardless of how bad things seem or how good or lousy we feel. I always know when I am not pleasing to God because I loose that deep peace ( that is far beyond good or bad feelings) and go and hide in the woods like Adam - not wanting to talk or see God. It's sad I know but I'm sometimes in the woods But I don't like it there and the Lord comes looking for me after a while. His compassion and my confession restore His peace. Sometimes with good feelings but more often the trial continues but always with the peace. There was never a truer saying than: To set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. To set the mind on the flesh is death. I have a lot of experience on both ends, unfortunately, more on the latter side, but God is able to do above all that I ask or think, so I leave it to Him

This is such a good testimony!! We all go through dry spells. But God is so Faithful, He always does come looking for us! One of the biggest challenges ALL believers struggle with is setting the mind on the Spirit. To walk in the Spirit can be so baffling. "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." I "think" I have gotten better walking in the Spirit. Can't explain it in words but my lamp is filled and the light is shining in the lamp.

A few years ago, I actually received Revelation from the Spirit what Galatians 2:20 means!!
What came to me was by me (us) having fellowship with the Lord, through prayer, studying, reading, encouraging one another.. being joyous in all things.. working, paying bills, (UGH), hanging out with friends, even watching TV WITH Him, we are crucifying the flesh! If we are watching TV and something sinful or evil appears, I automatically turn away or change the channel and speak to the Lord..calling on His Holy Name.

Again. Great testimony!

[New Beginnings]

Thank you everyone. All your responses were wonderful and helpful.

NewManLiving, your response was especially helpful. I think that I am still haunted by the accusations that I must not love Jesus because I am not doing X, Y, and Z. I may not have been displeasing the Lord by not reading my HWFMR or not attending enough meetings and conferences, but there were some truths in those accusations. I wasn't reading the word or meeting with Christians regularly. I couldn't see the truth amidst the lies. Religion had lost all appeal, and I really didn't believe any other group of Christians would be any different. I was certainly lost but that could never nullify my need and desire for my Savoir.

Is there any profit in legalism? Is there a Christian standard of living that must be met? Is there a measure of Christ that must be attained? Or does the Lord change our hearts to desire meeting all these requirements.

Thank you all for hearing me and I apologize for going in circles...again.

[NewManLiving]

I believe that He just desires us to love Him and believe Him. Sometimes that is not so easy especially when everything seems to be going wrong. He looks at our heart and not our mistakes. David made a lot of serious mistakes but the Lord was more concerned about his heart. The fact that we feel remorse when we think we are not pleasing to Him really means that we love Him. Otherwise we would not care or feel any remorse. He does test our faith, but not like we think. He is not looking to see if we make mistakes but if at the end of the day we could still say: Lord I love you with all my heart, even though my imperfect heart often fails you. Have no doubt about it - He is quite able to complete the work He began in you.

The book of Hebrews is always a big help to me. It shocked me to see that He learned obedience through the things that He suffered. I could never imagine why the Lord needed to learn obedience. He was also tempted in all things like us - incredible! He is able to sympathize with our weakness because He felt that same weakness pierce His body to the core. We have such a High Priest that is seated at the right hand of the Father. He intercedes for us constantly! And He is able to save us to the uttermost! He became just like us in every way except without sin. When you talk to Him He knows exactly how you feel. So take cheer and be at peace. If God is for us who or what can possibly be against us!

[aron]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Is there any profit in legalism?

I say, absolutely. Jesus met the standard. He alone is legal; we are all "illegals" who don't belong in God's kingdom. We the rebellious were expelled, but God loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son. Hear Him, and live.

Now, what is Jesus' legalism, towards us? "Obey my commandments, just as I obeyed the Father". Gulp.

Of course we remain pathetic failures (on God's terms, not ours). What to do? 1. Struggle, try, try, try... the Holy Spirit will see us, and come alongside and help us in our weakness(es). This is not law but grace, the grace of God coming alongside (the paraclete) to help us in our weakness. But we have to try, to receive grace.

2. Forgive others for their failures, and God will forgive yours. Period. It is a statement of fact. Do it and you will be on the right side of the ledger.

.................................................. .......

As mentioned previously, holiness and sanctification are linked by the same root structure: sanctification is to become holy, like God.

And the way to do this, from what I see, is to see God's holiness. We simultaneously see what God is, and what we are not. This opens the way for grace. John the disciple, who'd been with Jesus for 3+ years, seen the Pentecost, seen the church age form, seen Paul come and go, seen so much... when he saw the Holy One of God ministering before the throne, The Sanctified High Priest in the midst of the seven burning lampstands, he fell down as dead. He simultaneously saw reality of God, and saw the lack of man. This dissolution of (John's) self created the matrix to form the new man. The word is the vehicle to suggest the Holy Spirit's arrival, the 'parousia'. And the Spirit says, "Take off your shoes, for you are standing on holy ground". The angel of the presence brings the presence. The messenger conveys the message: God is holy.

Anyway, I ramble incoherently here. Just thinking aloud.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I say, absolutely. Jesus met the standard. He alone is legal; we are all "illegals" who don't belong in God's kingdom. We the rebellious were expelled, but God loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son. Hear Him, and live.

Now, what is Jesus' legalism, towards us? "Obey my commandments, just as I obeyed the Father".

2. Forgive others for their failures, and God will forgive yours. Period.

Great points! You could say that these are the great commands: Love God (he who loves Me will keep My word) and love your neighbor (starts with forgiveness.)

Holiness, like distorted oneness, has been all twisted up by God's enemy. So much fleshly work is done under the guise of holiness. Around here the Amish system supposedly made them "holy." But look at all the contradictions -- Land lines bad, cell phones good. Electric service bad, gas powered refridgerator and washing machine good. Cars bad, Uber driver good. Natural gas pipe bad, propane tank good.

Legalism and legalistic sects operate by fear, not by love and forgiveness. They have created systems of spies and sleeper cells which get activated by religious zealots. Their program pleases man, but not God. They live by the seen, not by the unseen, walking by sight, not by faith. Their systems of sanctification always have clearly identifiable checklists in order to monitor the progress of the "faithful."

Now don"t get me wrong, I have a lot of love and respect for Amish people. They have to make a living too. But let's not think that God is pleased with navy slacks that do not have "worldly" zippers. God is pleased with His Son, and He has told us so plainly, even with an audible voice, "hear Him."

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by JJ

I'd recommend you use Bible Gateway, Bible Hub, or Blue Letter Bible to do a Bible Word search on the words "holy", "sanctify", and "sanctification" (all have the same root word in Greek), and read as many of the verses as you can (there are many!) to see how the Bible defines sanctification.

Warning, that will be a lot of work, but it might get you out of the weeds on this. I've done such a Word search before, and just wanted to bow down to my God and savior Jesus, and beg His Holy Spirit to sanctify me from my filthiness.

I use biblegateway.com all the time. I love it because I can type in a word and all the words will pop up. If I am looking for a particular scripture, that I know is the NT, I can go to the right side menu and scan down to the NT. If I think it's in 1 Corinthians, I simply click on it..

If I want to read the passage or scripture in a different translation, I simply switch to the translation. A few years ago, I read Psalm 91 in about 7 translations for a whole week!

http://www.gotquestions.org/ is also a good site to check out for topics and questions.

Blessings to all !