Hello. Been out of LC since 2008.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Camil0

The only thing that drives me nuts these days in churches is that there is so little extolling of the work of Christ and so much emphasis on what we should be doing - works oriented. as far as the church form - i do believe the pastoral system really hinders people from growing, but so did the groupthink / ministry control of the LC !

The great failure in the Christian conversation is that it's rarely about Christ, and even then Christ becomes a touchstone to what we want to do. If we want to beat people, we reference Him taking a whip of cords and driving out the moneychangers. If we want to be beaten we reference Him standing in front of Herod and Pilate like a sheep being shorn, with mouth closed.

Etc. Where is the simple sitting at His feet, like Mary in the Bethany gathering? The reason our lives are a mess, and our impact in the world is negligible, is because we don't understand Him. And the reason we don't understand Him is because we think we do, and thus ignore Him.

Today I feel that the Lord Jesus had a secret, invisible relationship with the Father in heaven, which was constantly manifested in what He did and said. The "works" proved the Man. See e.g. the conversation in John 10. His works proved His Sonship. His relation with the Father was firm. A Man, in the flesh of sin on an earth held captive, was one with His Creator God in heaven.

The details of this relationship are there, but they are hard to get to, hard to fathom, and harder to grasp experientially and live within. You know, "abide". What a brutal word, in my lexicon! But it's sort of become a burning passion within me. And I hope that it's softened my interactions with others. And simplified them. How we need simplification! Not Christ and the church, not the ministry or God's present move on the earth, so-called, but just the One in whom God delights.

[Camil0]

Originally Posted by aron

The details of this relationship are there, but they are hard to get to, hard to fathom, and harder to grasp experientially and live within. You know, "abide". What a brutal word, in my lexicon! But it's sort of become a burning passion within me. And I hope that it's softened my interactions with others. And simplified them. How we need simplification! Not Christ and the church, not the ministry or God's present move on the earth, so-called, but just the One in whom God delights.

Just a thought - see how this rings to you. I have a less mystical view of the word "abide" today than I used to. 1 John: "Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father." I really believe this means that our abiding in Christ simply means grasping, reminding ourselves, laying hold of, and not neglecting the promise of the Gospel. Just like Paul said in Colossians that He will present us without spot "if indeed we continue in the faith, rooted/grounded and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which we heard and which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." With all of WL's focus on Christ as the Spirit (which I believe actually helped me be aware of how near and dear He is to me), I sort of lost the notion that He is also the message itself. We walk by faith, and that faith comes from hearing the word, and the Word is not just in general "the Bible" but the message which we heard from the beginning - the promise of eternal life because of what Jesus did on the cross. That keeps us in Him, and abiding in Him simply means not moving away from that word and onto something else (even temping biblical hobbyhorses . ) Ever since I read Andrew Murray's 'Abide in Christ' (which I read before Witness LEe) i had this terrible burden about "walking in the spirit" and keeping myself in the mystical union with Christ. I found it impossible, because that sense is continually interrupted by the sinful flesh and distractions of the world. I do believe you're right about Jesus' mysterious union with the Father - but He was the burnt offering - absolutely for God where we cannot be. We just don't have that capacity, so he simplified it and gave us the message of the Gospel to cling to. This is something we will never move away from ultimately because we've been sealed. We are mystically one with Christ - it's an accomplished fact, but until we see Him face to face and get rid of this flesh He's given us something simpler to hold on to - just believe the message.

Well, it's a comfort to me, that's for sure.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Camil0

Just a thought - see how this rings to you. I have a less mystical view of the word "abide" today than I used to. 1 John: "Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father." I really believe this means that our abiding in Christ simply means grasping, reminding ourselves, laying hold of, and not neglecting the promise of the Gospel. .... until we see Him face to face and get rid of this flesh He's given us something simpler to hold on to - just believe the message.

Well, it's a comfort to me, that's for sure.

I have no problems whatever with what you share. My problem has been this: the union of Christ with the Father issued in a living that was a firestorm, a contagion, to the kingdom of Satan here on the earth. Only a few times in my life have I had the experience of Christ living in me to such an extent that I no longer existed, practically, but focused all my energy and attention on the fact that He lived. This literally created a firestorm around me, as I no longer reacted to the world but remained fixed upon the Father, through Christ.

Mostly I walk into a room, or down the street, and it is all controlled by Satan (or mostly) and it is "business as usual" around me. Satan doesn't fear me nor my Christ. This bothers me. This I believe is due to the lack of abiding.

Yes I believe the gospel. I hope in the gospel. I attempt to align with it. But the person behind that gospel, so tantalizingly real, usually is out of sight, more or less. I simply have an idea: today's concept or theology. That can be frustrating.

And in the context of church affairs, today, I find almost nothing of interest when the Christians gather. Either ritualistic platitudes or excitement and froth about something inconsequential, or even misleading. Been there, done that.

But am I any better? Probably not. Plus I would rather show up and at least acknowledge those of the faith, than sit home like Jack Horner and pretend what a good boy I am. So I go.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

But am I any better? Probably not. Plus I would rather show up and at least acknowledge those of the faith, than sit home like Jack Horner and pretend what a good boy I am. So I go.

So funny. I have family from Hornerstown, and some of us have done exactly that.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have family from Hornerstown, and some of us have done exactly that.

The revelation from God in Christ Jesus is that while we were sitting at home, thinking darkness was light, a great light shined into the darkness. Jack Horner suddenly realizes he's in a corner. The light shines and the dead rise. What a gospel.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by aron

The revelation from God in Christ Jesus is that while we were sitting at home, thinking darkness was light, a great light shined into the darkness. Jack Horner suddenly realizes he's in a corner. The light shines and the dead rise. What a gospel.

Amen! And Jack Horner realizes he is the deepest, darkest, most hopeless slimey worm.... yet God came to him, to give him forgiveness and a new life.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Camil0

1 John: "Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father."

Let me rephrase my argument. I suspect that "what you heard from the beginning" wasn't Witness Lee or Andrew Murray or Martin Luther or Billy Graham. Even Moses; no, Christ calls us deeper. Moses was merely the Father being kind to us, and meeting us where we were, stuck in the hardness of our heart. See e.g. "the beginning" as referenced in Matt 19:8. But though Moses points to Christ, Christ doesn't point to Moses. Rather, Christ points to the Father.

That which was from the beginning, is deeper than we can ever go, in this life, but if we begin to proceed, we will see the issue, in "works", all around us. Not our works, but His. Thus far I have books and words and ideas, which I do believe center around the gospel of Jesus Christ, but few works.

And I am not talking of tongues of angels, or flames of fire, or miracles. I am talking about Satan falling back in disarray as the kingdom of God is manifest. And the building of the church in this manifestation is our coming together and acknowledging God's work among us in Christ. Not the "authority and submission" of Nee, with his "getting in line" and his "handing over", nor the "being absolutely identical" of Lee, or the "one trumpet" of the blendeds. Just acknowledge one another in the name of Jesus Christ. So I go to church, try not to grind my teeth too loudly as they mouth empty things (I'll remind myself, "remember, if you show mercy God will show you mercy!").

Anyway I have full confidence that God can do anything. I'm not without hope.