Article: Beware of the writings of the Watchman

[markpaul]

Originally Posted by aron

This sounds like the Eastern Lightning cult, which is an off-shoot of Lee's "Shouter" sect in the mainland China. Similarly, Witness Lee told us some parts of the Bible were "fallen" and "human concepts" and "natural" and should be ignored. He also told us that some NT authors like Peter and James were "low" and we should be careful to receive their words. Instead he recommended his "interpreted word".

The Eastern Lightning takes this even further, replacing God's word with the word of the author.

Were you at all exposed to the "Shouter" sect in China? I hear that they are very active. Supposedly they exalt Lee even beyond what he wanted! Which is a lot.

Yes, there maybe similar origin. As far as I know (please correct me if I’m wrong) “shouter” is a branch of LC. There are different sects among them. The extreme one called “Lord Changshou” and “King Changshou”. The “Changshou” is Lee’s Chinese name. They worshiped Lee! I heard of someone suggested that Eastern Lightning is a sect derived from “shouter” but I’m not sure. Do you have more information on these? I recommend to read through “God in life and nature but not in the Godhead” in this web to see if there is a connection. Also possible from the MOT teaching, I don't know.

[Freedom]

Yes, there maybe similar origin. As far as I know (please correct me if I’m wrong) “shouter” is a branch of LC. There are different sects among them. The extreme one called “Lord Changshou” and “King Changshou”. The “Changshou” is Lee’s Chinese name. They worshiped Lee! I heard of someone suggested that Eastern Lightning is a sect derived from “shouter” but I’m not sure. Do you have more information on these? I recommend to read through “God in life and nature but not in the Godhead” in this web to see if there is a connection. Also possible from the MOT teaching, I don't know.

The article linked in the quote below contains some information on the subject. Basically, it appears that a member of the "Lord Changshou sect" (a Witness Lee worshiper) went on to become the founder of the Eastern Lightning:

Back in Acheng City during 1989's Spring Festival, Zhao testified that Witness Lee is the Christ of the End Times and the King of Kings.
...
In March 1989, Mr. Zhao was made head of the Changshou sect in Heilongjiang and was named “Lord of Power”. He Zhexun was made the Leader of the Hengshan Church (a Shouter church).
...
At the end of 1990 because of pressure from the public security authorities and other reasons, the Changshou sect was broken up. Mr. Zhao saw his opportunity and sent some of his core people to various Changshou sect areas and got those believers to believe in the Lord of Power (that is, himself) instead of Witness Lee. He wrote his own tract, called “Preaching the Word”. Under this tract’s influence, his followers gave up the Bible and Witness Lee’s Life-Study of the Bible.
http://www.chinasource.org/resource-...ders-come-from

[markpaul]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The article linked in the quote below contains some information on the subject. Basically, it appears that a member of the "Lord Changshou sect" (a Witness Lee worshiper) went on to become the founder of the Eastern Lightning:

Alas, how terrible it is!
Let’s keep in mind I Peter 5:8 “Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.”

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by markpaul

Alas, how terrible it is!
Let’s keep in mind I Peter 5:8 “Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.”

I would say that most LCers might think themselves to be immune to this "roaring lion". The LC system is viewed as being a safety net. Unfortunately, they are propagating the very system that is allowing the devil to devour people.

In the LC people aren't allowed the freedom to think for themselves. They think they are following God, but they are following a man. Those who seek to know the Word are quickly redirected to WL's ministry.

[markpaul]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I would say that most LCers might think themselves to be immune to this "roaring lion". The LC system is viewed as being a safety net. Unfortunately, they are propagating the very system that is allowing the devil to devour people.

In the LC people aren't allowed the freedom to think for themselves. They think they are following God, but they are following a man. Those who seek to know the Word are quickly redirected to WL's ministry.

I agree. When I was in LC, most of LCers mentioned Brother Lee said. They often said some words like God's economy. Most of them read recovery version Bible. I don't have chance to read recovery Bible. How many differences comparing with other versions such as King James Version? Have you ever read both of them (I mean include the notes written by Lee)?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by markpaul

I agree. When I was in LC, most of LCers mentioned Brother Lee said. They often said some words like God's economy. Most of them read recovery version Bible. I don't have chance to read recovery Bible. How many differences comparing with other versions such as King James Version? Have you ever read both of them (I mean include the notes written by Lee)?

Hi brother,

I'm not qualified to evaluate the RcV compared to the KJV, but anything that has a connection, association, or relationship with LSM is suspect to me. I don't need to be a Greek scholar to sense that LSM is a whitewashed grave full of dead men's bones, demons and evil Angels.

[markpaul]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi brother,

I'm not qualified to evaluate the RcV compared to the KJV, but anything that has a connection, association, or relationship with LSM is suspect to me. I don't need to be a Greek scholar to sense that LSM is a whitewashed grave full of dead men's bones, demons and evil Angels.

My English is not good enough to make my idea clear. I would like to know if the heretic (in the link) just from Lee's teachings or also including his translation of the Bible. I haven't read the RcV, but I heard of some problems in it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi brother,

I'm not qualified to evaluate the RcV compared to the KJV, but anything that has a connection, association, or relationship with LSM is suspect to me. I don't need to be a Greek scholar to sense that LSM is a whitewashed grave full of dead men's bones, demons and evil Angels.

The RecVers is actually an updated ASV 1901. It's definitely not a bad translation. It was developed in order to include Lee's notes. I still use my copies due to familiarity. I dont use them out in public, however, since I tired of being asked if I was a recovering alcoholic.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by markpaul

I agree. When I was in LC, most of LCers mentioned Brother Lee said. They often said some words like God's economy. Most of them read recovery version Bible. I don't have chance to read recovery Bible. How many differences comparing with other versions such as King James Version? Have you ever read both of them (I mean include the notes written by Lee)?

I have read the majority of the NT RcV footnotes. I have not read many of the OT footnotes. I would say that the footnotes always lead me to an understanding of what WL wanted us to believe about any given topic. In a 'normal' study Bible, the footnotes might be there to provide a discussion of a difficult passage, not so much to define particular teachings, especially as it would relate to a certain ministry.

I don't know what version the RcV compares best to. My guess would be maybe the ESV or NIV, but I have not engaged in a side by side comparison.

The translation itself probably isn't a bad translation per se, you just can't be guaranteed that there was no agenda behind the translation (and most of us believe that there was indeed an agenda).

[markpaul]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have read the majority of the NT RcV footnotes. I have not read many of the OT footnotes. I would say that the footnotes always lead me to an understanding of what WL wanted us to believe about any given topic. In a 'normal' study Bible, the footnotes might be there to provide a discussion of a difficult passage, not so much to define particular teachings, especially as it would relate to a certain ministry.

I don't know what version the RcV compares best to. My guess would be maybe the ESV or NIV, but I have not engaged in a side by side comparison.

The translation itself probably isn't a bad translation per se, you just can't be guaranteed that there was no agenda behind the translation (and most of us believe that there was indeed an agenda).

I see. Thanks. Is there any place mention the term "God's economy" etc?

[markpaul]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have read the majority of the NT RcV footnotes. I have not read many of the OT footnotes. I would say that the footnotes always lead me to an understanding of what WL wanted us to believe about any given topic. In a 'normal' study Bible, the footnotes might be there to provide a discussion of a difficult passage, not so much to define particular teachings, especially as it would relate to a certain ministry.

I don't know what version the RcV compares best to. My guess would be maybe the ESV or NIV, but I have not engaged in a side by side comparison.

The translation itself probably isn't a bad translation per se, you just can't be guaranteed that there was no agenda behind the translation (and most of us believe that there was indeed an agenda).

I should explain more about I didn’t read Rcv and Lee’s notes. When I planned to read Bible (study Bible myself at home), I found Rcv was thicker than Chinese Union Version (Cuv) because the former including Lee’s notes. So I chose Cuv. After reading Cuv and other (e.g. NKJV), I found I could not enjoy church life with other LCers anymore. So I left without reading Rcv.

[aron]

Originally Posted by markpaul

Alas, how terrible it is!

The EL is, by all accounts, truly evil; ISIS-level kind of evil. And the similarities of EL with the LC is this:

1) both sprang from the "sensuous" school of Watchman Nee, where one's sensory experiences and subsequent feelings dominate. It's not for nothing the Lee group in China was called shouters: they whip themselves into an experiential frenzy through shouting. People in these groups open themselves into forces unknown through soulish excitement.

2) both isolate from other Christians. Only they are the pure remnant chosen by God for His present move on earth. Everyone else is "Babylon"; no balancing word from outsiders can save them from deviation.

3) both exercise tight operational control. Conformity and unquestioning obedience is expected.

4) both are free to modify the Word of God due to reasons 1) and 2). The "feeling" or "leading" of the Maximum Leader is equivalent to God's present speaking. The Bible no longer guides, the Leader guides. Any safeguard from the flock of God (Christianity) is removed due to the group's isolation.

I don't know about the PRC shouters; probably they're similar, since they came from the LC (though the LC denies this, WL once claimed them as followers) and the EL came from the PRC shouters.

[markpaul]

Originally Posted by aron

The EL is, by all accounts, truly evil; ISIS-level kind of evil. And the similarities of EL with the LC is this:

1) both sprang from the "sensuous" school of Watchman Nee, where one's sensory experiences and subsequent feelings dominate. It's not for nothing the Lee group in China was called shouters: they whip themselves into an experiential frenzy through shouting. People in these groups open themselves into forces unknown through soulish excitement.

2) both isolate from other Christians. Only they are the pure remnant chosen by God for His present move on earth. Everyone else is "Babylon"; no balancing word from outsiders can save them from deviation.

3) both exercise tight operational control. Conformity and unquestioning obedience is expected.

4) both are free to modify the Word of God due to reasons 1) and 2). The "feeling" or "leading" of the Maximum Leader is equivalent to God's present speaking. The Bible no longer guides, the Leader guides. Any safeguard from the flock of God (Christianity) is removed due to the group's isolation.

I don't know about the PRC shouters; probably they're similar, since they came from the LC (though the LC denies this, WL once claimed them as followers) and the EL came from the PRC shouters.

I agree with you. I may add some later.

[markpaul]

Originally Posted by aron

The EL is, by all accounts, truly evil; ISIS-level kind of evil. And the similarities of EL with the LC is this:

1) both sprang from the "sensuous" school of Watchman Nee, where one's sensory experiences and subsequent feelings dominate. It's not for nothing the Lee group in China was called shouters: they whip themselves into an experiential frenzy through shouting. People in these groups open themselves into forces unknown through soulish excitement.

I agree. I notice Robert.Hsu book point out that
“Nee continued to overemphasize “spirit” (instinct) and depreciate “soul” (rationality and thoughts). He did not encourage believers to use rationality and the heart which were created by God to understand the whole truth and the revelation of the Bible. God created rationality and heart as functions of human beings, yet even today some believers in some Local Churches still are overly “emphasizing spirit,” and pay less attention to the entire and fundamental truth of the Bible.”
Hsu M.D, Lily M.; Roberts M.A M.T.S, Dana (2013-04-02). My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church (Kindle Locations 3830-3833). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition.

I think above observation is correct. According to my experience, LCers follow Nee’s this teaching closely. I often heard somebody say “use your spirit.” The problem here is “your spirit”. A mortal cannot resist Satan’s trick. If a Christian use his own spirit instead of consulting Holy Spirit, how could he overcome Satan’s attack? Jesus gave us excellent example when He met temptation from Satan: He simply cited scriptures to rebuke Satan (Matthew 4:1-11).

[markpaul]

Originally Posted by aron

4) both are free to modify the Word of God due to reasons 1) and 2).

I was wondering if they are following Nee or Lee’s examples to do so. Anyway, I think this is a dangerous behavior. It reminds me at Genesis 3: 4-5. They’ve already shown Satan’s character!

[markpaul]

Originally Posted by aron

2) both isolate from other Christians. Only they are the pure remnant chosen by God for His present move on earth. Everyone else is "Babylon"; no balancing word from outsiders can save them from deviation.

Although Jesus did scold some churches (Revelation 2 and 3) and under Jesus’ light for the teachers to criticize other churches is okay, such conviction term “Babylon” they used is not suitable here. First Jesus’ scold aimed at their repentance and left the “door opening” for them. Second even if some churches did fall finally, only Jesus has final say to convict them.
Thank you to drive my attention to this interesting topic and make me understand God’s Words better.

[aron]

Originally Posted by markpaul

Yes, there maybe similar origin. As far as I know (please correct me if I’m wrong) “shouter” is a branch of LC. There are different sects among them. The extreme one called “Lord Changshou” and “King Changshou”. The “Changshou” is Lee’s Chinese name. They worshiped Lee! I heard of someone suggested that Eastern Lightning is a sect derived from “shouter” but I’m not sure. Do you have more information on these? I recommend to read through “God in life and nature but not in the Godhead” in this web to see if there is a connection. Also possible from the MOT teaching, I don't know.

Here is a link on the connection between the EL sect and Witness Lee.

http://www.chinasource.org/resource-...deas-come-from

This is a website by an American Christian. Here is what it says about him:

"William Bennett is a US attorney and Hong Kong solicitor who has lived with his family in Hong Kong and the China mainland for a combined 23 years."

I think it is a good resource. There are others, but this is a good start. If you learn about these people, you can help others who get confused by their teachings.

(p.s. I just saw Freedom posted on this website also)

Essentially these people take the separation from the original word of the disciples and the fellowship of the apostles one step further. When you step back and look at it, it is simply a natural progression of what Witness Lee taught. The LSM followers of Lee strongly disavow the heretical teachings and violent practices of the EL and Shouters. But it is a fruit from the same tree.

[markpaul]

Originally Posted by aron

Here is a link on the connection between the EL sect and Witness Lee.

http://www.chinasource.org/resource-...deas-come-from

This is a website by an American Christian. Here is what it says about him:

"William Bennett is a US attorney and Hong Kong solicitor who has lived with his family in Hong Kong and the China mainland for a combined 23 years."

I think it is a good resource. There are others, but this is a good start. If you learn about these people, you can help others who get confused by their teachings.

(p.s. I just saw Freedom posted on this website also)

Essentially these people take the separation from the original word of the disciples and the fellowship of the apostles one step further. When you step back and look at it, it is simply a natural progression of what Witness Lee taught. The LSM followers of Lee strongly disavow the heretical teachings and violent practices of the EL and Shouters. But it is a fruit from the same tree.

Thanks for the comments. I didn’t study Lee’s writings too much (I mean I didn’t read his books systematically, just studied some parts here and there in small group studying). Your link is quite useful to me. Thanks.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

When you step back and look at it, it is simply a natural progression of what Witness Lee taught. The LSM followers of Lee strongly disavow the heretical teachings and violent practices of the EL and Shouters. But it is a fruit from the same tree.

WL cultivated the environment that eventually lead to the EL. Instead of WL being at the top, the EL has someone else, who is even more bizarre.

In the quotes that I posted, it says that in the spring of '89, Zhao both testified that WL is the "Christ of the end times" and he was made a leader of the Changshou sect. Is this coincidence? I don't think so. This pattern sounds familiar with those who promoted WL during this same time period in Taiwan and the U.S.