Excommunicated!

Chris Fleming · 11-12-2013, 04:57 PM

Hello everyone!

I've known about this forum for some time, somethings I agree with, somethings not, but one thing I do know is that ALL who call on the Lord's name and love Him are saved and are rightfully called saints. Not just the spiritual snobs who believe they have a monopoly on that word.

I've been sitting on this for a year--amazing how a year can go by--not in anger really but mainly just moving on and detoxing from the whole experience. I was excommunicated from the LSM church in Austin TX for the high crime of wanting to get remarried.

My point of being on here is not a crusaded to get people to leave their church (some people who know me have approached ME to tell me that they are seriously thinking of leaving) however I do feel the need to work through this and tell it straight, bluntly and matter-of-factly for the record, because there is some serious things wrong in what was said to me. I think there is a lot of benefit to the LSM churches, yet there is a lot of things left to be desired, probably like most places...but most other places would at least admit that.

I'm using my real name, as that is how I do things online, and also because if I am going to name names I think it's only fair if I'm using my own as well. This is not a criticism to anyone else, just what I'm doing.

When I have a little more time I'll speak more about my whole experience there, but mainly what I have to say now is that I love the Lord, He is working in ALL of us who love Him and while I like the set up of the LSM churches, the Lord is doing mighty works in so many other people and places, most of whom have never even heard of LSM...and is going on in me and my life personally. So from the outset I'd like to say that while I am not against their church, their writings are a load of crap when they say it is not possible to leave their church and go on with the Lord.

Thank you for listening.

--Chris

Ohio · 11-12-2013, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I've been sitting on this for a year--amazing how a year can go by--not in anger really but mainly just moving on and detoxing from the whole experience. I was excommunicated from the LSM church in Austin TX for the high crime of wanting to get remarried.

If that's all it takes, then half the saints I know would have been excommunicated.

Oh wait a minute . . . 3/4ths of us already got quarantined!

Welcome to the forum, Chris.

countmeworthy · 11-12-2013, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I've been sitting on this for a year--amazing how a year can go by--not in anger really but mainly just moving on and detoxing from the whole experience. I was excommunicated from the LSM church in Austin TX for the high crime of wanting to get remarried.

How absurd is that ?..even from them!! I know there are people who have gotten married to LC people, divorced them and remarried LC people AND have remained in good standing.

Quote:

I'm using my real name, as that is how I do things online, and also because if I am going to name names I think it's only fair if I'm using my own as well. This is not a criticism to anyone else, just what I'm doing.

Good for you Chris! I use this moniker because it is a reminder to myself I pray I would be accounted worthy to rule and reign with Christ our beloved King. Everyone has their own reasons for remaining anonymous. Some have family to close for comfort. So they prefer to keep their real names private.

Looking forward to hearing from someone who was once who was in the 'locality that was supposed to be the "role model" the rest of the LCs should emulate...or something like that.

Thanks for sharing some of your experience.

Many blessings to you,

Carol Garza

alwayslearning · 11-12-2013, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

...but mainly what I have to say now is that I love the Lord, He is working in ALL of us who love Him and while I like the set up of the LSM churches, the Lord is doing mighty works in so many other people and places, most of whom have never even heard of LSM...and is going on in me and my life personally. So from the outset I'd like to say that while I am not against their church, their writings are a load of crap when they say it is not possible to leave their church and go on with the Lord.

This is a great realization and experience and explodes the myth propagated by the LSM that you can only be sanctified in their church, if you leave their church God's divine retribution will rain down upon you, they are God's special people, blah, blah, blah. A "load of crap" is a great description of this kind of prattle!

Chris Fleming · 11-13-2013, 08:44 PM

Thank you all for the warm reception. Reminds me of a memory:

A good friend of mine from my hometown of Pgh PA and dear (non LSM) brother once said to me that the Lord will put you in the church that He wants you to be in at that time. I agreed with him then and all the more so now.

It's funny--my friend was in town and stayed with me for a couple weeks so naturally we went to the table meetings. It just so happens that a bunch of the favored church kids just got back from some gospel trips to some surrounding TX cities. The thing is, in a lot of these small cities like Abilene, you're more likely to knock on the door of a Christian than a non-believer.

When in the meeting "sharing" about their experiences, kid after kid stood up and talked about how we need to share more with Christians and "show them more". No, it wasn't enough to meet a fellow Christian and have some prayer and fellowship, these people were lost, didn't know what they were doing and needed some 20 something year old kid to tell them where they ought to be meeting. I don't despise youth but I'll talk more about this kind of thing later--it was just so arrogant without them even knowing how they sounded.

To be fair, I had several experiences like that myself back in my college days from others outside of LSM. While walking to class I would be accosted by some wacky Christian (or otherwise) group and when I would say I was a believer, the grilling would start. Do you believe in this doctrine, do you believe in that doctrine. Any "wrong" answer and I obviously wasn't saved. They couldn't just say Amen brother, isn't the Lord wonderful?

But that little LSM experience is typical of how they really feel towards other believers. And there I was sitting with my guest. Hard to remember a time when I've been more embarrassed.

Ohio · 11-13-2013, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

But that little LSM experience is typical of how they really feel towards other believers. And there I was sitting with my guest. Hard to remember a time when I've been more embarrassed.

I remember one time (~2004) a young sister visited our college gathering. She was busting out of her skimpy summer clothing, but she could rattle off just how bad the whole of Christianity was.

I didn't stay too much longer in the program. Her testimony always confirmed to me just how far off we were.

aron · 11-14-2013, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

When in the meeting "sharing" about their experiences, kid after kid stood up and talked about how we need to share more with Christians and "show them more". No, it wasn't enough to meet a fellow Christian and have some prayer and fellowship, ...typical of how they really feel towards other believers. And there I was sitting with my guest. Hard to remember a time when I've been more embarrassed.

Romans 14:1 says, "Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions." NASB

In the local churches we were highly trained to pass judgment on everyone's opinions (except, of course, "our brother", who was God's oracle). Several years after leaving the local church system, I slowly began to learn to receive Christian believers just as God brought them to me, without passing judgment on their opinions.

Paul also said in Romans 15:7 (NIV) to "Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God." Now, how did Christ accept us, I wonder? According to my memory, I wasn't in the best of shape, but Christ accepted me, anyway. Shouldn't we likewise accept those around us? Why lay down some doctrinal or organizational "ground" as the necessary basis of "sweet fellowship"? Christ didn't do that with us; why should we do it with others?

TLFisher · 11-14-2013, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I don't despise youth but I'll talk more about this kind of thing later--it was just so arrogant without them even knowing how they sounded.

It wasn't until the mid-90's I become conscious of the arrogant attitude. In the last decade, the arrogance became much more transparent.

TLFisher · 11-14-2013, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I was excommunicated from the LSM church in Austin TX for the high crime of wanting to get remarried.

If it's based on you being previously divorced, I'd say hypocrisy is being practiced. I know divorced elders who went on to remarry sisters positive for the recovery. If excommunication is being practiced for a divorcee wanting to remarry, they should first begin to excommunicate those wanting to divorce their spouse in favor of one "more positive for the ministry". By all appearances, at times it seems the marriage covenant is not between the husband, wife, and God, but between husband, wife, and the LSM/LC.

Chris Fleming · 11-14-2013, 04:54 PM

So about getting excommunicated, perhaps I should start from the beginning. I'll have to write this out in a few parts.

Way back in the day I met an amazing woman who I fell in love with and married. I'm going to leave her name out of this, as she's had enough difficulties by me and this is about ME and how I was treated by the LC anyway. So I was young, mature in some ways but immature in others and she had some SERIOUS *issues* with her past and how she had been living for quite some time (she herself had been married before, getting remarried to me wasn't a problem because she's a church kid....the daughter of a VERY big name there. lets just keep it at that) but we were together and we more or less worked through things.

It's too long of a story to tell like this but even prior to meeting her, I got a recovery version Bible back when I was in college. Thus marked the beginning of a long journey towards the Lord and Him arranging very many things which lead us moving to Austin TX. I firmly believe that the Lord brought us together and it was His will that we eventually move to Austin. I have no regrets and in fact can't picture things differently. All things work for our good.

There were always problems with us, the relationship was rocky but real love was there. As it became clear that we were moving to Austin, we came under some SEVERE spiritual attack one after the other; our relationship was never the same after that.

The church life itself was a stress, before we even moved my ex was getting emails from people in Austin who remembered that she was married once before, DEMANDING to know what happened. This, mind you, was independent of the elders there, who like I said had no issues with her or us. Needless to say it affected her. I didn't understand it at the time when she said that this would happen, but sure enough it did. So I had a bad taste in my mouth before I even got there. I was wondering, what kind of place am I going to?

My reaction to the church life didn't help things. I found them to be very odd. All Christians are weird to some extent LOL but it was hard getting used to. The shouting, the strange tone of voice people slip into, the CONSTANT push for moving to other countries, the rather feminine character of the men there...it was all foreign to me. To be fair, a lot of my hang ups were of my own making, and slowly over time the Lord opened me up to being able to sing with others and to not be so defensive.

People who know me know that I am usually serious, or at least that I LOOK like I'm serious or upset about something. It comes from my personality and it also comes from my cultural background. People who's ancestors descend from eastern Europe often look like they are pissed off. I can't help it. But when I go to a meeting, I am serious for God. I don't want to stand around and talk about your job or my job and then *switch* when the meeting starts. Never really understood how people can be like that. Probably happens everywhere but still...

My grumblings about the church life took its toll on my then-wife. That coupled with the rest of our problems did us in. We fought A LOT, especially once in Ausin. It would start with me being upset about something or her being upset about something, and would end with her comparing me to one of her many past relationships. Being a highly intelligent person, she was, on the negative side, extremely manipulative and cruel. Not one to be out done, I argued back just the same. I couldn't stand the constant comparisons to other men, and it was driving me insane. She decided to separate from me in 2009 and live in her own place, AND live as a divorced woman.

None of that was the LC's fault, but what I have gone on to see is some REAL Christian teachings on marriage. I sought fellowship with the elders here and to my recollection, not even ONCE did anyone tell me that my wife and I need to stop and read the Bible together. I was listening to a preacher talk about this kind of thing and said that he always asks couples, "do you pray together? do you read the Bible together? No? Well no wonder you're having problems!". That's real Bible based advice.

The elders asked me about my own Bible reading but that's the extent of it, if memory serves. One of the elders, Cary Ard, was once at my place talking to me. The fellowship wasn't bad, it was good until he said one thing that blew me away. God is my witness on this--he told me that the Bible does not allow divorce but it does allow separation! The Bible actually says the complete opposite thing regarding separation. I couldn't believe it, he was actually trying to use the apostle Paul's teaching on a husband and wife separating from each other for a time to seek the Lord privately for MY situation. Completely insane and abuse of the Bible. For what reason he said this is beyond me, but damage done.

It was at that point that I realized I could no longer talk to him about spiritual things. He's not a bad guy, to this day I'm not upset--he's the one who baptized me and always sounded on-point otherwise. I could just tell that he wanted to be elsewhere. It's like I could see that he would rather be talking to some college freshmen instead. Y'all know Austin is HUGE on that. I mean ok fine, that's his gift and focus, not "community saints" like me. Oh how I HATE that phrase, "community saint", BTW. I just don't understand how an ELDER could use the Bible like that.

End of part 1

Ohio · 11-14-2013, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

None of that was the LC's fault, but what I have gone on to see is some REAL Christian teachings on marriage. I sought fellowship with the elders here and to my recollection, not even ONCE did anyone tell me that my wife and I need to stop and read the Bible together. I was listening to a preacher talk about this kind of thing and said that he always asks couples, "do you pray together? do you read the Bible together? No? Well no wonder you're having problems!". That's real Bible based advice.

After about 30 years in the LC's, I left in 2005, and we started visiting a community church not far from our new home. It was basically my first steps outside the fold where I spent nearly all of my Christian life. Right away I noticed the emphasis on marriage and family. After being there a short while, one day I had this stark realization -- all the leading brothers I knew in the LC's could spend the rest of their lives in meetings, and not one would learn a thing about counseling married couples.

Not one of them had a clue what to do or to say to a couple in trouble, yet not one of them even realized that. Of course there was a rare exception, but by and large, this was true. Years ago, I went through a serious marriage crisis, and the absolute worst advice I got was from Titus Chu. The local church leadership basically had a ancient Chinese cultural mindset on marriage. That would never work in the US. It never helped me, and it obviously did not help any one else, since so many marriages were either struggling or falling apart.

aron · 11-15-2013, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

A good friend of mine ... once said to me that the Lord will put you in the church that He wants you to be in at that time. I agreed with him then and all the more so now.

This is a great and perceptive statement. It is easy to laugh at Peter in the gospels, but really Peter's many failures are just stand-ins for our own. Peter didn't make more mistakes than the other disciples, or than we the Bible readers, it is just that Peter's mistakes were so well-documented! And yet Jesus was pleased to lead Peter, mistakes and all. And as we learn from mistakes, we can help others who also suffer. "When you turn, you will strengthen the brothers." (Luke 22:32)

Satan wants us to look back in bitterness, anger, sorrow, and shame. God wants us to look back in gratitude, and press forward to the goal, ever confident that in spite of our many failures, "His will be done, on earth as in heaven."

aron · 11-15-2013, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Way back in the day I met an amazing woman who I fell in love with and married... I was young, mature in some ways but immature in others and she had some SERIOUS *issues* with her past and how she had been living for quite some time (she herself had been married before, getting remarried to me wasn't a problem because she's a church kid....the daughter of a VERY big name there...

I'm not sure this is the place to raise this subject, but I'll try anyway. Let's assume we all want a Bible-based church. Now, how about Titus 1:6 "An elder must live a blameless life. He must be faithful to his wife, and his children must be believers who don't have a reputation for being wild or rebellious." (NLT)

Now if this very big name elder in Texas has a child (your ex-wife) with what you call serious issues, what are we to think? How "biblical" is that church, really? For that matter, what about the issue of women being silent in the church? (1 Cor 14:34). What about 'sisters' covering their heads for the sake of the angels? (1 Cor 11:10)

I am not saying we should read these verses literally or not. What I am saying is two things. First, the "Little Flock" of Nee and its spin-off the "Lord's recovery" of Lee both tried to be literalists, but really they interpreted the scriptures according to whatever was most convenient at the time. In this alone they did not sin, but simultaneously judging "Christianity" for doing the same thing was hypocritical.

Secondly, I left the "Lord's recovery" movement and went into an even more strict movement. Anyone who had been divorced was not allowed full participation, but was in a kind of "observer" status. Women couldn't speak in the meetings. And so forth. Everything, I mean everything, was taken literally. Thankfully, they didn't criticize "Christianity" for not following their practices, but I did find one thing in common with the Lee church: "Group think" totally dominated the congregation. Nobody wanted to think or do anything independently. Everything had already been "thought out" for them.

I think there's a danger in focusing on the "letter" of the Bible and ignoring the "Spirit" of the Bible. Then, the only "leading of the Spirit" allowed is "whatever Brother X says". God forbid you should be seen as being independent. So the ability of the Spirit to lead people, and to open up God's word, is quite circumscribed.

I remember one of my 'elders' in my Lee church group telling me that he followed the 'senior elder' without question. Even if the senior elder did something ridiculous, the junior elder would follow without hesitation or question. And we, by inference, were supposed to follow the junior elder. I saw this in practice, especially when the 'co-workers' arrived from Anaheim, and told the 'senior elder' what to do and teach, and it really did quench the Spirit. Then it was just, "Do what you are told. Instruction (sorry, 'fellowship') has arrived from the Maximum Leader."

Ohio · 11-15-2013, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

she's a church kid....the daughter of a VERY big name there. lets just keep it at that)

This explains a lot. I have read of numerous other cases where LC leaders sent members away to hush the event and protect the family of leaders.

It sounds like the elders in Austin had to choose between her and you, and guess what happened?

Cal · 11-15-2013, 10:27 AM

I don't mean to trivialize anything, because I know this is painful for you, Chris. But, trust me on this, there many churches in Austin where you will get a lot better care, understanding and shepherding than you got in the LC. Omigosh, what an embarrassment your experience would be for any halfway-serious church leader around the city! To the LC it's just business as usual.

Trying to get shepherding when you are down-and-out in the LC is like trying to find a tuna in shark-infested waters. You might find one, but you'll both get eaten by something else.

Ohio · 11-15-2013, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Trying to get shepherding when you are down-and-out in the LC is like trying to find a tuna in shark-infested waters. You might find one, but you'll both get eaten by something else.

John Myer also has a few things to say about that...

TLFisher · 11-15-2013, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

To the LC it's just business as usual.

To be partial is a character trait many LC leaders exhibit. When there's a known quantity of a person, the tendency is to take what they say at face value. Even more when an elder or co-worker is involved. Soley the measure of respect and name recognition an elder/co-worker has gives him credit while most brothers and sisters aren't even given the benefit of the doubt.

Chris Fleming · 11-15-2013, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Trying to get shepherding when you are down-and-out in the LC is like trying to find a tuna in shark-infested waters. You might find one, but you'll both get eaten by something else.

Brother you aint kidding.

Love the shark analogy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUuH4TEmgLo

Chris Fleming · 11-15-2013, 06:27 PM

So as we last left off, it was 2009, my then-wife started living with some other saints (and eventually got her own apartment) and I learned from an elder that the Bible allows for separation.

She, to her credit, wanted to go to "Christian-based" marriage counseling, as even she knew that there would be no help found in LSM churches.

Just as a side note regarding divorce, I don't remember which one it was but I once read a Witness Lee book where he said that he can testify that there is NO DIVORCE in the church life. Really had to laugh at that one even when I was in the LC, as all kinds of people that I knew there, including my then-wife were in fact divorced. Some of the first people that I met there were divorced.

The counseling was O-K-A-Y, I mean, the guy was a real believer but it was entirely psychology-based with some Bible verses thrown in, like from 2 Corinthians talking about the God of all comfort who would comfort us and so forth. I was put off by him thinking that he knew me better than I knew myself after taking his personality test. The main thing his business taught were some communication skills like how to listen and apologize....which is good I suppose but once again Christianity as a whole was letting me down. I have to be fair, it wasn't just LSM. A slap upside my head and some direction to read and pray together would have been better.

At the end of it however, it looked like we had a real break through--I heard her and understood what was hurting her and she heard me and understood what was hurting me. We reconnected and began the healing process.

That didn't last long as some days later things were just bothering me, I was still negative towards her, a big part of me wanted to move on. Not that I would divorce her, I just didn't feel right. I was wrong to entertain those thoughts but I guess even that was for the best, since it was at that point that she informed me that she had been seeing someone, a brother in the LSM church, and said that if she wanted to continue to see him she would.

Any ground gained in counseling was now completely destroyed.

I don't know what the extent of their relationship was, but regardless, they were seeing each other, she still being married--that is just something you don't do. She would later tell me that women never cheat without a reason so it was actually my fault.

I wanted to hurt the guy; he was someone I was close to. Extremely upset with her as well.

Rather than following the Bible exactly I skipped over the previous steps and went right to the tell-it-to-the-church phase. At least I was smart enough to know that a felony on my record and prison time was nothing to be desired.

So I told them.

They didn't care.

I'm serious. Since Cary Ard was still the only elder I really knew there, I tried telling him about it and he didn't want to talk about it. He may have said something to my ex but from what I understand it wasn't anything substantial. He more or less wanted to focus on the marriage, I guess...but once again my mind was blown. Church kid or not, famous father or not, that's not how you handle things. The LSM policy is hear no evil, speak no evil. I understand from this forum that they have a history of this. Haven't gone too deep into that but knowing this history put their actions into more of a context. Problem in the church? Just make it go away. Ignore it, ignore it, ignore it.

Austin itself is mainly focused on attracting college freshmen to attend their meetings and eventually go to the training and then serving....where? back on the campus of course. I'm not against their training or their campus work, it's just that it became VERY clear to me that THAT is what Austin LC is all about and there isn't much of a place for you if you're not on board. They are looking for cookie-cutter kids who all pretty much act the same and follow the same "career" path in the LC as outlined above.

I was stuck in that LC limbo of being too old now to matter--didn't go to the training, didn't have kids of my own to bring up in the career path, wasn't serving on campus (i wouldn't have been allowed either, as i didn't go to the training), marriage in shambles so I couldn't have a home meeting for college freshmen to attend, was *that guy* with the problems, and so forth. Was and forever permanently in that despised underclass of

Community.

Saint.

End of part 2

countmeworthy · 11-15-2013, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Hello everyone!
I've known about this forum for some time, somethings I agree with, somethings not, but one thing I do know is that ALL who call on the Lord's name and love Him are saved and are rightfully called saints. Not just the spiritual snobs who believe they have a monopoly on that word.

Hi Chris,
I am following your journey. But the words in your first post ring of Psalm 91:14-16

Quote:

Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him securely on high, because he has known My Name

15 When he calls to Me, I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will rescue him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him
and show him My Salvation.”

Because you love Him, He will deliver you. Because you know His Name, GOD, EL-SHADDAI will set you securely on high. (That is HIS WORD and HIS Promise to you !) Another Name for Jesus is SALVATION.

You wrote:

Quote:

one thing I do know is that ALL who call on the Lord's name and love Him are saved

In vs 14 the Lord saith " I will protect him, because he knows MY NAME.
15 When he calls to Me, I will answer him;

(I have been going over the Names of God btw)

One observation I have made about the LSM, is they stopped teaching about repentance eons ago. I suppose if they do not repent themselves to GOD and to those they have trespassed against, then they can't teach on repentance now, can they?

In my first year in the LC (1975), our church elders went through a series of mini conferences on such topics as 'The Blood of Jesus" and "the power of Repentance".

(Btw, there were also marriage conferences exclusive to married couples back then.) I do not know if these conferences "The Blood of Jesus, Repentance and Marriage" were a Lee directive or if our church leaders (San Diego) took it upon themselves to have these conferences. The main elder who held these mini conferences used to be a Baptist minister who left the denomination for the LC. He has long left the LC himself. He left in the mid 80s.

They helped me a lot and have continued to make a positive impact on my life. (all except the marriage part..as I have remained single. :-D )

So if Nee could not humble himself and repent and neither could Lee..then it is no wonder the LC people cannot bring themselves to repent either. Believe me 'enjoying the Lord' like they teach is not going to hold water when they stand before the Son of Man.

David wrote in Psalm 51:10
"Create in me a clean heart O God and renew a right spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your Presence. Do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.....a broken and a contrite heart, Thou will not despise." (And Lee claimed that the Psalms were not good enough. What a deceived human being he ended up being. Hopefully he REPENTED on his death bed.)

Is it no wonder the Anointing and Presence of God is no longer in the LC as a whole? Is it no wonder so many people in the LC are screwed up spiritually and emotionally?

Here is what Amos 5:22-23 says:

Quote:

Even though you offer up to Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them;
And I will not even look at the peace offerings of your fatlings.
23 “Take away from Me the noise of your songs;
I will not even listen to the sound of your harps.

May the Lord have mercy on His church.

Blessings all,
Carol g

Truth · 11-15-2013, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

When in the meeting "sharing" about their experiences, kid after kid stood up and talked about how we need to share more with Christians and "show them more".

That was totally me. Growing up in the church life I was brainwashed into thinking we "know" so much more than the other Christians. I look back with shame and embarrassment. Still can't get over it today. It has humbled me tremendously. I definitely don't feel like that anymore.

I can't blame those kids. They have been taught so from youth. They know nothing else. The LSM system is to blame for this. Until you step back from the system...stop meeting with them for a few months, you won't see what kind of mindset you have. That was what opened my eyes - kind of like Plato's cave story. You *think* you ARE God's only and true church because you haven't seen anything else. You have been told what "Christianity" is but you never saw it yourself. You've never met any loving believer outside of your local church community. So you automatically believe what you are taught - that you know more than them.

Ohio · 11-16-2013, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truth

I can't blame those kids. They have been taught so from youth. They know nothing else. The LSM system is to blame for this. Until you step back from the system...stop meeting with them for a few months, you won't see what kind of mindset you have. That was what opened my eyes - kind of like Plato's cave story. You *think* you ARE God's only and true church because you haven't seen anything else. You have been told what "Christianity" is but you never saw it yourself. You've never met any loving believer outside of your local church community. So you automatically believe what you are taught - that you know more than them.

You have just competently described the origins of Laodicea.

countmeworthy · 11-16-2013, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truth
I can't blame those kids. They have been taught so from youth. They know nothing else. The LSM system is to blame for this. Until you step back from the system...stop meeting with them for a few months, you won't see what kind of mindset you have. That was what opened my eyes - kind of like Plato's cave story. You *think* you ARE God's only and true church because you haven't seen anything else. You have been told what "Christianity" is but you never saw it yourself. You've never met any loving believer outside of your local church community. So you automatically believe what you are taught - that you know more than them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

You have just competently described the origins of Laodicea.

More like a description of Ephesus w/a sprinkling of Thyatira Ohio. Ephesis lost her first love.
Here is the warning from the Lord:
Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

Here is what the Lord says about Thyatira:
she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

Furthermore:
The LSM is quick to point out the speck in their brothers' eye but do not even notice the LOG in their own. (Matthew 7:3)

Hmmmm...

And a warning to them (as well as all believers of Christ) from Ephesians 4:6

Quote:

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

In the case of the LSM, they are more worried about offending the church and their founders than grieving the Holy Spirit a far more serious offense and something they ought to worry about !!

In recapping:
--They criticize Christians outside of their denomination thus not noticing the LOG in their own beliefs.

--Their idols are Nee & Lee. They have not repented for making Nee/Lee and their system their god.

--They are not afraid of grieving the Holy Spirit of God, a most serious offense.

--They do not heed to the warning given to 5 of the 7 churches: If they do not repent, God will take away their lampstand (their Light), will throw that church of believers on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts;

Almighty God -Jesus Christ- also says this to Sardis:
‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. ...REPENT... [there's THAT word again!) He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Does that mean the LORD COULD ERASE or BLOT out our names from the book of Life??? I do not know but I am not taking my Salvation for granted !!!

And didn't someone recently say, the LC doesn't care about God's angels???

Hmmm..... WARNING!!! WARNING!!!

Blessings all,
Carol G

TLFisher · 11-17-2013, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

[B]In the case of the LSM, they are more worried about offending the church and their founders than grieving the Holy Spirit a far more serious offense and something they ought to worry about !!

When you give a man and his ministry the preeminence, I see that as grieving the Holy Spirit. You uplift a ministry while minimizing what the Holy Spirit is speaking to the brothers and sisters.
Because of the preeminence given to this ministry, how a local church handles it's affairs is in context of not offending Living Stream Ministry and the brothers it employs.

countmeworthy · 11-18-2013, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

When you give a man and his ministry the preeminence, I see that as grieving the Holy Spirit. You uplift a ministry while minimizing what the Holy Spirit is speaking to the brothers and sisters.
Because of the preeminence given to this ministry, how a local church handles it's affairs is in context of not offending Living Stream Ministry and the brothers it employs.

Very True Terry! Very, very sad as well that the preeminence of the ministry has become the LSM's idol. May the LORD have Mercy on them (and on us all too) that we would all purify our thoughts and hearts IN Christ Jesus through His Blood, through HIS LOVE & Patience while there is still time for our Redemption draws nigh and is at hand.

TLFisher · 11-18-2013, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Austin itself is mainly focused on attracting college freshmen to attend their meetings and eventually go to the training and then serving....where? back on the campus of course. I'm not against their training or their campus work, it's just that it became VERY clear to me that THAT is what Austin LC is all about and there isn't much of a place for you if you're not on board. They are looking for cookie-cutter kids who all pretty much act the same and follow the same "career" path in the LC as outlined above.

Chris, what you're saying about Austin applies to some of the localities I've met with. Focused energy for the college age. A little less attention if you're not college age.
Across the country it is apparent to be on board, you must fit in to the "cookie-cutter". If you're on board, you will be one being the beneficiary of "the benefit of the doubt". If you fit into the cookie cutter mold, you will be shown partiality. Especially in times of relationship conflict as you have experienced. A couple, brother, or sister being deemed as "for the ministry", "one of us", or "he's a good brother", obviously local and extra-local leadership cannot remain impartial. Just by their words it's apparent decisions have been made without examination of the facts.

Truth · 11-18-2013, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Chris, what you're saying about Austin applies to some of the localities I've met with. Focused energy for the college age. A little less attention if you're not college age.
Across the country it is apparent to be on board, you must fit in to the "cookie-cutter". If you're on board, you will be one being the beneficiary of "the benefit of the doubt". If you fit into the cookie cutter mold, you will be shown partiality. Especially in times of relationship conflict as you have experienced. A couple, brother, or sister being deemed as "for the ministry", "one of us", or "he's a good brother", obviously local and extra-local leadership cannot remain impartial. Just by their words it's apparent decisions have been made without examination of the facts.

In my experience, their pipeline is majorly lacking. I know so many who graduated from the college and even some from training who left the church life. All that effort they put into the college students goes to waste just like. I have seen it with my own bare eyes. Hint to LSM lurkers: fix the young adult saints pipeline, especially for those who are single. The married saints and those with children need help too, but in a different way. There is just not much support for this group age or any other group age that is past college and FTT age. Everyone is expected to serve the college age or younger ones. I'm not against serving this age group, but this is not everybody's cup. Everyone has their own function...and they are all different. But often in the local churches, if you are not serving the college age kids or the young people, then you are out. There is really not much else out that. This may not be true of EVERY single local church, but seems to be true of the majority. With this new GTCA, that is the trend.

alwayslearning · 11-18-2013, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

So I told them. They didn't care...The LSM policy is hear no evil, speak no evil. I understand from this forum that they have a history of this. Haven't gone too deep into that but knowing this history put their actions into more of a context. Problem in the church? Just make it go away. Ignore it, ignore it, ignore it.

Sadly as you have found out first hand from your own experience the LC system leadership are woefully ill-equipped to offer counsel on marriage and any other number of important issues that matter to real people in real life where the rubber meets the road. Their qualification for eldership or coworker status has nothing to do with their pastoral ability. How loyal are they to LSM? How well can they promote LSM events and products? How accurately can they repeat Witness Lee messages? This is what matters most to be a leader in the LC system.

With this superficial way of measurement and evaluation if should not surprise us to learn those with marital difficulties have no where to turn and typically find themselves grasping at straws and maybe (usually secretly) finding some resources in "Babylonian" Christianity in the form of books, counseling, seminars, etc.

I'm not sure which generation of LC church kids your ex-wife belongs too but I can tell you that for those who came up in the 1960s-1970s the divorce rate among them is ridiculously off-the-charts high! (It wouldn't surprise me if it's the same for the decades following as well.) I believe this is partly due to the artificial environment created by the LC system. In this bubble solutions to complex problems are mechanical and simple at best: call on the Lord three times, get out of your mind, go to more meetings, read more life-studies, etc. Once married the complexities of real life slap them in the face: personalities, life-goals, expectations, values, communication, past baggage, decision-making, careers, sexual fulfillment, division of labor, financial management, recreation, raising children, friendships, extended family relationships, etc. have to be addressed at some level and the simplistic solutions given to them their entire lives growing up in the LC system don't work.

TLFisher · 11-19-2013, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truth

In my experience, their pipeline is majorly lacking. I know so many who graduated from the college and even some from training who left the church life. All that effort they put into the college students goes to waste just like. I have seen it with my own bare eyes. Hint to LSM lurkers: fix the young adult saints pipeline, especially for those who are single.

Amen! EVERYONE needs to be shepherded. Those that fit the cookie cutter mold will be coddled. Those that don't fit the cookie cutter mold will be left to suffer. Just as not all men and women are suited for the armed forces, not all brothers and sisters are suited for FTTA. Attending FTTA should not be a result of appeasing peer pressure. I know I was pressured many times to attend FTTA. Some just want to fit within their locality. Find a niche where they can serve the locality and be built up with the brothers and sisters meeting there.

Chris Fleming · 11-23-2013, 09:20 PM

So at this point I wasn't really attending meetings. I always found them boring and strange, especially with all the screaming.

LOL pray-reading would make me crack up. Keep in mind, I'm not against this at all. It's just that it always sounded more to me like prayer-repeating rather than prayer-reading. When I first got to Austin there must have been a training on 1st John--people were walking around saying, "THAT WHICH....THAT WHICH....THAT WHICH!" I was like, what the hell...

Anyway, I would go to a table meeting or "open" video training meeting once in a while and then be gone for like 6 months or more. I once asked one of the elders what home meetings there were, since I lost mine (the saints who sided with my ex and got involved in our business would be awkward to meet with). The elders said they would help me find a home meeting but never did.

I never stopped reading the Bible of course. Also read LSM books like their Life Studies, which I think are good. After some time, I was invited to a home meeting which ended up being a great place, and a place that slowly nourished me back to life. I was reading and praying with others again. Learned how to sing with others as well. That might not be a problem for most but for me I had never been the singing type. Now I think its great and important.

I will always be grateful to that family who took me in and showed me the best of the church life for a few years.

End of part 3

Chris Fleming · 11-26-2013, 09:41 AM

It was at this time that I had a major spiritual awakening. This was real and LSM can never take that away from me.

In prayer one night I was essentially crying out to the Lord, asking and even somewhat demanding that He come in and be life to me. And He did! It was amazing! The Lord did something, whatever He does and how He does it, to give me the grace, mercy and power to be able to let go of just SO MUCH anger and pain. I had the forgiving power to no longer be angry at the man who was going out with my wife, to no longer be angry at the saints who were encouraging my estranged wife to look for jobs in other cities, and to let go of many other things like that.

Previously I thought I could forgive but after a time the same old feelings would come back. This time was for real and I know it is solid because this has remained to this day.

Praise Him for His wonderful life, mercy and power!

Meetings became enjoyable now. I was able to attend each week and look forward to doing so. I liked being with everyone now and had a growing hunger for the church life--it must have been that church life "honeymoon" that I had heard about but never had previously. I shared often in the meetings and wanted more. Still didn't entirely know how I was going to fit in there in terms of some kind of service, but I was sure that it would be manifested to me.

Life was opening up to me; everything just looked brighter.

My then-wife officially filed for divorce--one of the last things she said to me was that she wanted "the freedom to see other people". Now I'm not the smartest but I think we all know that when a person says something like that they usually have someone in mind. Don't know for sure, but I don't care either. That was enough for me to hear. Didn't want any more pain.

I spoke to a different elder in Austin, Tym Seay. He was recommended to me as a dear brother, of course, and a good man who you could talk to. Previously I would see him around all of the time but never had the opportunity to speak to him.

I had been keeping him updated with my marriage situation, including the finality of it. After some time had past, I told him that I wanted to go on in the church life, and God is my witness on this, I told him that whenever the Lord leads and allows I want to find a sister, have a family and just do whatever I am supposed to do there. I was not vague in anything at all. He was all smiles and Amen-ing. So all was well, or so I thought.

In the course of more time, I met this cute girl in a home meeting, we began to talk A LOT...and I'm sure you all can figure out where this was heading.

It was at that point that they wanted to talk to us...

I was still married to my ex, in their eyes. And, all of a sudden Tym was completely amnesiac as to our former conversation regarding me wanting to go on and get (re)married at some point.

The situation was clear in my eyes yet they wanted some kind of proof. Other than my ex getting remarried herself, I'm not sure what kind of proof they expected. I asked them somewhat jokingly, what do you want? Dirty sheets? Youtube clibs? Eventually her and I ended things with respect mutually--that was another grace and mercy from the Lord--but her words were clear. I personally did not want to find out who she was seeing or who she wanted the "freedom" to see. She's had a hard enough life, I guess, and I am happy to step out of the way and go on with mine. The choice was made for me anyway--I just had to realize that I needed to STOP killing myself and wake up to life.

I asked the elders (at this point he brought Neal Wolfson to sit in with him) what he expected me to do if such acceptable "proof" never comes. Did they honestly expect me to remain single for the rest of my life? They didn't have any direct answers save for and I quote, "...it would be hard...".

So they really did just want the problem to go away and for me to be *that brother* there sitting by himself in the meetings, getting creepier and creepier each year. There are guys like that in their church--dudes who have gotten divorced and you can tell that they are at the point that they would love to jump on almost any sister that crosses their line of vision. It's not normal to subject a man to that kind of life...and I definitely DO NOT have the gift to remain unmarried. Doing my own thing is cool for a while, to come and go as I please and care only for myself but I had been alone for years already.

Speaking of that, the elders asked me how long I had been divorced for. It had been several months, maybe 5 or 6 months that I had been officially divorced. They made light of that, saying that it wasn't that long, to which I explained AGAIN how prior to the divorce we had been separated for 3 1/2 years. That made Neal laugh a lot and compare that length of time to the great tribulation. How my situation was a joke to them is beyond me.

In any case, the situation was impossible for them, and their logic went full-retard. At one point, Tym said that they did not want me getting remarried because that would allow for everyone else to leave their wives because they were having difficulties.

That kind of statement is totally insane. Firstly, I did not leave or file for divorce with my ex. That was all her. I'm just saying all these details about my previous marriage to give you the reader an idea as to just how crazy they got. They literally thought that marriages in their church are hanging on such a thread, according to their logic, that me, some nobody, will lead the entire group into divorce. Sure.

So they had an ultimatum--break up with my honey and wait to "see what happens" or "there will be....some restriction...".

End of part 4

Ohio · 11-26-2013, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

That kind of statement is totally insane. Firstly, I did not leave or file for divorce with my ex. That was all her. I'm just saying all these details about my previous marriage to give you the reader an idea as to just how crazy they got. They literally thought that marriages in their church are hanging on such a thread, according to their logic, that me, some nobody, will lead the entire group into divorce. Sure.

So you basically need an affidavit from your ex to confirm that she has been "sleeping around," and then you will be set free?

TLFisher · 11-26-2013, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

My then-wife officially filed for divorce--one of the last things she said to me was that she wanted "the freedom to see other people". Now I'm not the smartest but I think we all know that when a person says something like that they usually have someone in mind. Don't know for sure, but I don't care either. That was enough for me to hear. Didn't want any more pain.

I spoke to a different elder in Austin, Tym Seay. He was recommended to me as a dear brother, of course, and a good man who you could talk to. Previously I would see him around all of the time but never had the opportunity to speak to him.

I had been keeping him updated with my marriage situation, including the finality of it. After some time had past, I told him that I wanted to go on in the church life, and God is my witness on this, I told him that whenever the Lord leads and allows I want to find a sister, have a family and just do whatever I am supposed to do there. I was not vague in anything at all. He was all smiles and Amen-ing. So all was well, or so I thought.

In the course of more time, I met this cute girl in a home meeting, we began to talk A LOT...and I'm sure you all can figure out where this was heading.

It was at that point that they wanted to talk to us...

I was still married to my ex, in their eyes. And, all of a sudden Tym was completely amnesiac as to our former conversation regarding me wanting to go on and get (re)married at some point.

The situation was clear in my eyes yet they wanted some kind of proof. Other than my ex getting remarried herself, I'm not sure what kind of proof they expected. I asked them somewhat jokingly, what do you want? Dirty sheets? Youtube clibs? Eventually her and I ended things with respect mutually--that was another grace and mercy from the Lord--but her words were clear. I personally did not want to find out who she was seeing or who she wanted the "freedom" to see. She's had a hard enough life, I guess, and I am happy to step out of the way and go on with mine. The choice was made for me anyway--I just had to realize that I needed to STOP killing myself and wake up to life.

I asked the elders (at this point he brought Neal Wolfson to sit in with him) what he expected me to do if such acceptable "proof" never comes. Did they honestly expect me to remain single for the rest of my life? They didn't have any direct answers save for and I quote, "...it would be hard...".

So they really did just want the problem to go away and for me to be *that brother* there sitting by himself in the meetings, getting creepier and creepier each year. There are guys like that in their church--dudes who have gotten divorced and you can tell that they are at the point that they would love to jump on almost any sister that crosses their line of vision. It's not normal to subject a man to that kind of life...and I definitely DO NOT have the gift to remain unmarried. Doing my own thing is cool for a while, to come and go as I please and care only for myself but I had been alone for years already.

Speaking of that, the elders asked me how long I had been divorced for. It had been several months, maybe 5 or 6 months that I had been officially divorced. They made light of that, saying that it wasn't that long, to which I explained AGAIN how prior to the divorce we had been separated for 3 1/2 years. That made Neal laugh a lot and compare that length of time to the great tribulation. How my situation was a joke to them is beyond me.

In any case, the situation was impossible for them, and their logic went full-retard. At one point, Tym said that they did not want me getting remarried because that would allow for everyone else to leave their wives because they were having difficulties.

That kind of statement is totally insane. Firstly, I did not leave or file for divorce with my ex. That was all her. I'm just saying all these details about my previous marriage to give you the reader an idea as to just how crazy they got. They literally thought that marriages in their church are hanging on such a thread, according to their logic, that me, some nobody, will lead the entire group into divorce. Sure.

So they had an ultimatum--break up with my honey and wait to "see what happens" or "there will be....some restriction...".

As I read your post there's a double-standard at play. Maybe your ex is handled with a touch of personal favoritism? Maybe they don't realize, this scenario had already transpired in Oklahoma City and who knows how many other localities.
IMHO, had you been considered "a good brother", you would have received the "free pass" to move on. You know what I mean by the free pass, "don't make an issue of things, matters, or persons".

aron · 11-29-2013, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

So at this point I wasn't really attending meetings. I always found them boring and strange, especially with all the screaming... pray-reading would make me crack up... it always sounded more to me like prayer-repeating rather than prayer-reading. When I first got to Austin there must have been a training on 1st John--people were walking around saying, "THAT WHICH....THAT WHICH....THAT WHICH!" I was like, what the hell....

The charismatic churches put up a barrier which you the newbie must cross before you are "in". You must overcome your shock and dismay that they are all bellowing like cattle and yourself "cry out and shout, Oh inhabitant of Zion" (Isa 12:6). So they show you a scripture which seems to direct you to act "crazy" like they are. In my case I was running back and forth in their "meeting hall", flapping my arms like a bird and shouting, and singing "PSRP/BNPB makes the eagle fly!" Of course I felt like an idiot. But they told me that I was "in spirit".

My point is that you can make someone swallow a whole lot of nonsense if you can get them to shout it with you. The nervous system gets stimulated and you (hopefully) feel a rush of euphoria. You stop thinking critically. Not for nothing this group is known in China as the "shouters".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I was invited to a home meeting which ended up being a great place, and a place that slowly nourished me back to life. I was reading and praying with others again. Learned how to sing with others as well. That might not be a problem for most but for me I had never been the singing type. Now I think its great and important.

I will always be grateful to that family who took me in and showed me the best of the church life for a few years.

I am also grateful that I was a "shouter" for a few years. I got sober and got off the street. Got a job. It's all good.

I am even more grateful that one day I walked away, "back to Christianity". Today the Bible is much more meaningful to me. Instead of showing me the ground of the church, so-called, or God's New Testament Economy, so-called, or the vision of the age, so-called, or any number of other notions promulgated by one Witness Lee, today I believe that in the Bible "we see Jesus" (Heb 2:9). For example, in the Psalms we see Jesus, and not the concepts of David the sinner. We see Jesus. In Luke, in James, in Peter's epistles: Jesus. Deeper and deeper we go. Never stop; keep going. Into the word we go. The word begins to dwell in us richly.

Instead of seeing the notions of Lee in the Bible I am now seeing Jesus and that is something I am very grateful for. The Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead now is speaking to us through these thousands-of-years-old words of text, and showing us something new. Are not our hearts burning, as the scriptures are opened? Lee said they were closed, they were dead. Pages and pages without footnote, or even cross-reference. Dead letters. But Witness Lee was wrong.

I am very grateful to have been freed from what I can only describe as "a system of errors". I saw man's ministry being elevated, while the revelation of Jesus Christ in the scriptures was suppressed. What lies ahead I don't know. But I know I got freed, and I'm grateful.

aron · 11-30-2013, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead now is speaking to us ... and showing us something new. Are not our hearts burning, as the scriptures are opened? Lee said they were closed, they were dead. Pages and pages without footnote, or even cross-reference. Dead letters. But Witness Lee was wrong.

The bolded part was a reference to the RecV Psalms. I know that some areas such as Ephesians are full of commentary. Some of it may be good, I don't know. But Paul wrote in Ephesians to "be filled in Spirit" by singing the Psalms, and in Colossians likewise ("that the word of Christ may dwell in you richly..."), but Lee told his local churchers not to bother. These scriptures were too "low", he said, and didn't match his "high peak revelation". So was Lee following the apostle here?

I just write this point as clarification. Someone may have read this and not understood what I was referencing (Probably there are other places besides the Psalms also ignored in the RecV. I'm just mentioning what I'm aware of).

Anyway, coming back to Chris Fleming's point, in Lee's local church we were to be "filled in spirit" by repetitively chanting not only scripture but also Lee's outlines, footnotes, song lyrics and slogans. "Let's all stand and loudly recite Banner #1!" This was our "charismatic" experience, and it was used to suppress our own God-given critical capacities. By making us semi-delirious, on demand ("Turn to your spirit, brother!") they dulled our ability to discern the spirits. Just get yourself stimulated, and then supposedly you are close to God's heart. Don't worry that the Bible is suppressed, ignored, and distorted.

Chris Fleming · 12-14-2013, 09:45 AM

In one of the last sit downs we had with the elders, Tym Seay began by telling me that he was reading the Bible earlier and came across a verse that reminded him of me. It was the part in Matthew 19:10 where the Lord is talking about marriage and the disciples respond with "it is better not to be married".

And then he literally stopped with that.

I mean, I had my girlfriend right there and everything. She's the innocent one caught up in all this. Here I thought I already communicated very clearly with the elders about my intentions to go on and be with someone when the time came, and Tym said "Amen". Now they talk like that in front of her with a word like that and many more. How do you think she felt? We were already very close and they were forcing us to choose between us and them, the whole group.

So I said, "but what about the rest of that section?", and I read the rest which says that not everyone has the gift to remain unmarried so let only him who can accept it live that way.

I was shocked because it happened AGAIN! In one of my posts above I talked about how another elder, Cary Ard, tried to manipulate the Bible into it saying what he wanted it to say about a wife separating from her husband, and here it happened AGAIN! They must really think I am stupid or that at least I don't read the Bible and rather just will accept anything they say about it.

It was at that point that it dawned on me that they just want me, like I talked about earlier, to be permanently single. That way they can act like there's no divorce in the church life. Problems problems, just go away. See no evil.

Tym accepted that it was good for me to point out the rest of that section and the full context of those verses.

Thankx.

I remember hearing a message from Big Daddy Kangas years ago when he talked about how in his days in the seminary he got to a point to where he said, "I do not trust these people with my soul!". I feel the same way now about the LC. They're not bad people at all just when it comes down to it, they will eat their own to preserve their outward appearances.

I hope people reading this can see my heart that I'm not bitter and upset at them, just at what they did and how they used the Bible. You have to cut the word straight. I'm not perfect but I'm not making exception for sin. Maybe they were right in wanting some kind of absolute "proof" that my ex wife has moved on in every sense of the word, but I never felt any life and peace with that kind of directive. I tried to tell them and they were happy to see me go on but inwardly they just wanted me to forever wait and "see what happens" (yes that's what they said). That would be a life of slow suicide. No thankx.

End of part 5

Ohio · 12-14-2013, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I mean, I had my girlfriend right there and everything. She's the innocent one caught up in all this... but inwardly they just wanted me to forever wait and "see what happens" (yes that's what they said).

If nothing else, Chris, these trying times together will help you and your gf to know one another. Not to endorse Tym's way of expounding the scriptures, but time can be beneficial to you, especially since the success rate for 2nd marriages is worse than for the first. Remember they are a outreach work center for LSM, and their priority is not folks like you.

Since you are part of that dreaded "community" in the CIA, I encourage you to visit other churches more suited to you. Some churches even have small gatherings to fellowship with young people planning to marry, which can be quite profitable. The LC's never were known for having the best views about marriage.

God bless you on your journey.

TLFisher · 12-14-2013, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

In one of the last sit downs we had with the elders, Tym Seay began by telling me that he was reading the Bible earlier and came across a verse that reminded him of me. It was the part in Matthew 19:10 where the Lord is talking about marriage and the disciples respond with "it is better not to be married".

As I read this portion, I thought to myself does this apply to both the husband and the wife that are going to be divorced? Or is it a case of what applies to one does not apply to the other.
From a human perspective, some brothers can do quite well "better not to be married" while other brothers would be better suited for re-marriage.

Chris Fleming · 12-21-2013, 11:24 AM

So in our last sit down the ultimatum as break up or "uh...there will be...uh...some restriction...".

After a pregnant pause I took my cue to ask, "what do you mean by *some* restriction"?

Their answer was that we will not be able to attend any table meetings, prayer meetings, home meetings, any other kind of meetings and are to have no contact with "the saints".

Talk about *some* restriction! I said to Tym that that is complete excommunication!

He said that the word excommunication isn't in the Bible (just like "community saint", right?) and they prefer to only use terms which are found there, so he said, "in this situation our decisions is to....uh....follow the Bible and...uh.....remove...".

"Remove the evil one from your midst?!?!?", I asked. No response.

So there you have it, I am not being excommunicated, just completely cast out from their church system and rather am being compared to the man in Corinthians who was having sex with his step-mom for being divorced and wanting to have a Godly marriage for once. Clearly I am the "evil one" for wanting to move on.

There were some long moments of awkward silence between the four of us, which Neal Wolfson couldn't stand so he reverted to randomly blurting out "....AMEN!!!" "....YEAH!" "...UM HMM!!" as his is known for. I'm not kidding.

It was fairly clear to Tym that this wasn't going in the direction he wanted it to go, as in, we weren't falling all over ourselves to just accept what he was saying, but he left it open to me that all I had to do was drop the girl who was then and still is the love of my life and I would be "brought back in". Tym AGAIN compared me to "the evil one" of the incestuous Corinthian by saying that when that man repented he was brought back in right away, so in like manner I will be allowed to come back if only I will submit to a life of misery and loneliness, but hey, I can sit in their buildings.

At that point we all were at an impossible situation, them wanting to maintain the self styled purity of their group, not offend the big names that my ex is connected to and stay on their high horse and us wanting to get out of there. It was all about control. I realized this for certain while Neal was talking to us. He said some nice things but I could tell by intuition and his face that it really was just all about control. It was even a mystical moment--the look on his face shocked me as he was speaking. It's hard to put into words but it was the look of someone I have not met before.

Tym decided that we should think it over and he will get in touch with me soon. We did think it over and considered them and their views. We discussed it very thoroughly and even considered separating. We quickly dropped that idea; it was just too ridiculous and also painful.

Tym called me at work a couple days later to get an answer, to which I told him politely that what he was asking us to do was violent and painful, and we will no longer be meeting with them.

To someone who is a part of a system who believes they have a monopoly on truth, it was shocking to him that we would choose to leave their group.

There was a long silence on the phone.

I tried to help the guy out and break the silence and tell him I don't know what else to say. He explained to me that "the saints" are off limits to me but I could contact the elders "should the situation change". Thanx, because like I've written about elsewhere, I am forbidden to talk to any other Christians now according to their complete abuse of the word "saint".

____________________

All of this has truly been the best thing for me. The lovely woman who I met has now become my wife and I have NEVER been happier. She is the most caring, supportive and loving person I have ever met. We actually pray together, have a heart for the Lord TOGETHER, read His Word together and want our lives to be for His glory! What more could I want?

We have met with other NORMAL Christians and will eventually find where the Lord wants us to be. I feel so blessed and free from spiritual snobbery and divisiveness.

I care about the people in the LSM churches and wish them the best. I do hope, however, that they actually seek the Lord HIMSELF and continue to do so if they are already.

They way I feel about it is, brothers and sisters, the time is VERY short. Not setting dates at all but we are entering into some, how shall we say, very *interesting* times. Christians ought to STOP attacking each other and devouring their wounded and realize that the church is not a temple of self-styled purity but the house of God. I wish Christians have even 1/10 of the solidarity muslims have, and it pains me greatly to say that. I'm not talking about excusing sin, I'm talking about in my case, letting a person spiritually live rather than rot.

In any case, the gospel needs to be preached! I realized in the LSM churches that there was nearly no way to be taught how to preach the gospel there--I had not attended their "training" so that whole realm was really off limits to me. I have actually heard that if you want to preach the gospel, you have to attend home meetings where "full time-ers" go and just be around them...at some point maybe they will invite you to go with them. This is complete nonsense because THE BIBLE shows us that ALL believers should be discipled and use the authority of Christ to preach and deliver people. And ALL people at that, not just college freshmen, as is the pattern there in Austin.

Like I said, the times are short and we need to be focused on THE LORD.

I truly wish that

countmeworthy · 12-21-2013, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

So in our last sit down the ultimatum as break up or "uh...there will be...uh...some restriction...".

After a pregnant pause I took my cue to ask, "what do you mean by *some* restriction"?

Their answer was that we will not be able to attend any table meetings, prayer meetings, home meetings, any other kind of meetings and are to have no contact with "the saints".

May the Lord have exceeding great Mercy on them (the leadership) 'cause it looks to me, they are the ones who are going to have restrictions imposed on them by their Creator. May the Holy Spirit open their eyes and hearts to REPENT!!!

Quote:

All of this has truly been the best thing for me.

Yep. What Satan means for evil, God turns to GOOD ! Because we have a GOOD and KIND and LOVING GOD.

Quote:

They way I feel about it is, brothers and sisters, the time is VERY short. Not setting dates at all but we are entering into some, how shall we say, very *interesting* times.

Very, VERY SHORT !! Halleluiah to the Lamb of God! Exciting but sombering as well. Time to pray without ceasing pray, for the saints of the Most High, for Israel especially Jerusalem and for the lost.

Quote:

Christians ought to STOP attacking each other and devouring their wounded and realize that the church is not a temple of self-styled purity but the house of God.

Yep. We ought to pray the LORD gather His saints together unto Him. That we would be ONE with HIM and with each other IN HIM to the Glory & Praise of our God, our Creator.

Quote:

I wish Christians have even 1/10 of the solidarity muslims have, and it pains me greatly to say that. I'm not talking about excusing sin, I'm talking about in my case, letting a person spiritually live rather than rot.

Understand. Just keep in mind the devil is the great deciever, manipulator and prince of darkness out to steal, kill and destroy the Body of Christ.

Quote:

In any case, the gospel needs to be preached!

Yeppers ! Amen to that !

Quote:

I realized in the LSM churches that there was nearly no way to be taught how to preach the gospel there

How things have changed. In 1975/76, I learned to preach the gospel, to repent daily, to apply the Blood of Jesus daily, to edify the saints. IN THE LC for crying out loud!! But we had good elders in San Diego: John Smith & wife Sonya, Les Cites & wife Carolyn, Willie Samoff & wife Sandy & Roger Beck & wife Darlene. I will be forever grateful to the Lord for their guidance. Back then, our eyes were fixed on our Lord Jesus Christ, the Spirit of Love, the Spirit of Truth. Lee was not the all in all. Truly it was CHRIST. But there were plenty of flaws in San Diego as well. Not a perfect church especially as we became more & more controlled by Lee & his ministry.

Quote:

I have actually heard that if you want to preach the gospel, you have to attend home meetings where "full time-ers" go and just be around them...at some point maybe they will invite you to go with them. This is complete nonsense because THE BIBLE shows us that ALL believers should be discipled and use the authority of Christ to preach and deliver people. And ALL people at that, not just college freshmen, as is the pattern there in Austin.

Agree. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

Quote:

Like I said, the times are short and we need to be focused on THE LORD.

Indeed.

Quote:

I truly wish that.

Me too. Thanks for sharing your testimony of DELIVERANCE !!

Blessings to all!

Carol G

TLFisher · 12-22-2013, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

So in our last sit down the ultimatum as break up or "uh...there will be...uh...some restriction...".

After a pregnant pause I took my cue to ask, "what do you mean by *some* restriction"?

Their answer was that we will not be able to attend any table meetings, prayer meetings, home meetings, any other kind of meetings and are to have no contact with "the saints".

Talk about *some* restriction! I said to Tym that that is complete excommunication!

He said that the word excommunication isn't in the Bible (just like "community saint", right?) and they prefer to only use terms which are found there, so he said, "in this situation our decisions is to....uh....follow the Bible and...uh.....remove...".

"Remove the evil one from your midst?!?!?", I asked. No response.

So there you have it, I am not being excommunicated, just completely cast out from their church system and rather am being compared to the man in Corinthians who was having sex with his step-mom for being divorced and wanting to have a Godly marriage for once. Clearly I am the "evil one" for wanting to move on.

There were some long moments of awkward silence between the four of us, which Neal Wolfson couldn't stand so he reverted to randomly blurting out "....AMEN!!!" "....YEAH!" "...UM HMM!!" as his is known for. I'm not kidding.

It was fairly clear to Tym that this wasn't going in the direction he wanted it to go, as in, we weren't falling all over ourselves to just accept what he was saying, but he left it open to me that all I had to do was drop the girl who was then and still is the love of my life and I would be "brought back in". Tym AGAIN compared me to "the evil one" of the incestuous Corinthian by saying that when that man repented he was brought back in right away, so in like manner I will be allowed to come back if only I will submit to a life of misery and loneliness, but hey, I can sit in their buildings.

At that point we all were at an impossible situation, them wanting to maintain the self styled purity of their group, not offend the big names that my ex is connected to and stay on their high horse and us wanting to get out of there. It was all about control. I realized this for certain while Neal was talking to us. He said some nice things but I could tell by intuition and his face that it really was just all about control. It was even a mystical moment--the look on his face shocked me as he was speaking. It's hard to put into words but it was the look of someone I have not met before.

Tym decided that we should think it over and he will get in touch with me soon. We did think it over and considered them and their views. We discussed it very thoroughly and even considered separating. We quickly dropped that idea; it was just too ridiculous and also painful.

Tym called me at work a couple days later to get an answer, to which I told him politely that what he was asking us to do was violent and painful, and we will no longer be meeting with them.

To someone who is a part of a system who believes they have a monopoly on truth, it was shocking to him that we would choose to leave their group.

There was a long silence on the phone.

I tried to help the guy out and break the silence and tell him I don't know what else to say. He explained to me that "the saints" are off limits to me but I could contact the elders "should the situation change". .

Reading this last post raised some questions:
1. What are the grounds of the "restriction"?
2. Have the "saints" been warned not to have contact with you?
3. Had your ex-wife suffered the same fate of trying to move on?

Rather I sense partiality levied against you because of the relational aspect of your ex-wife's family.

so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
1 Corinthians 12:25-26

Chris Fleming · 12-22-2013, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

As I read this portion, I thought to myself does this apply to both the husband and the wife that are going to be divorced? Or is it a case of what applies to one does not apply to the other.

It is a case of double standards with a big dose of purity-legalism. A person can go off the deep end, have other relationships, but as long as he or she doesn't get remarried it is ok because then the LC elders can say that you are not *really* divorced and must remain single. The same holds true for single people as well. I am aware of several people, some brothers but sadly mostly sisters, who party like rock stars Saturday nights including sleeping around but dress all prim and proper Sunday mornings. Elders look away because if they did look, then they would have to deal with it...or at least their notion of purity would be shattered.

All this really made me wonder what on earth is wrong with these people. I've talked to other couples who one or the other have been remarried AND allowed to remain there...at first there is always a spirit of being anti-marriage. Couples had to fight them on the issue even when there was plenty of "proof" to satisfy the elders that they are indeed free to remarry.

Reminded me of a biography on Darby I once read. At one point in his life he seemed to find a woman who matched him spiritually as well as intellectually. However, "the brothers" were against the idea that he get married and rather prayed against him (!!!), praying for the relationship to be dissolved. Darby did break it off, leaving the woman understanding all that was involved and yet heart broken. She apparently died as a result some time after this news. The Lord is the judge; at least in my mind those people are responsible for that death.

That account made me sick because the same spirit of meddling is VERY dominant in the LC. I really can't stress this enough. Now I'm no Darby (nor would I want to be, with his pre-trib rapture errors), but this same spirit of meddling was what I experienced time and again from the elders as well as from other people there.

There is a spirit of cowardice there as well. I had a person tell me that there were other people "bothered" that I was in a relationship with someone. I'm sure they had absolutely no idea what was going on in my personal life but they sure had their opinions. I asked this brother who are the people who have the problem. "Oh I don't know" was the response.

Opinions of the rank-and-file saints in the LC are apparently quite weighty to the elders in the LC, at least where I was. One of the things they said to me was that in so many words they are afraid of what others will think should I get remarried. I asked them how "the saints" know my personal situation and have some kind of spiritual insight as to if I am sinning and in an improper relationship or not. I was told, "it is in the divine and mystical realm".

It seems like the elders are afraid of their own congregation--it wasn't so much about my ex (although there certainly was that) but rather it was about not wanting they themselves to come under the judging and criticizing eye of their own people, as people there are addicted to doing.

TLFisher · 12-22-2013, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

It is a case of double standards with a big dose of purity-legalism. A person can go off the deep end, have other relationships, but as long as he or she doesn't get remarried it is ok because then the LC elders can say that you are not *really* divorced and must remain single.

All this really made me wonder what on earth is wrong with these people. I've talked to other couples who one or the other have been remarried AND allowed to remain there...at first there is always a spirit of being anti-marriage. Couples had to fight them on the issue even when there was plenty of "proof" to satisfy the elders that they are indeed free to remarry.

There is a spirit of cowardice there as well. I had a person tell me that there were other people "bothered" that I was in a relationship with someone. I'm sure they had absolutely no idea what was going on in my personal life but they sure had their opinions. I asked this brother who are the people who have the problem. "Oh I don't know" was the response.

It seems like the elders are afraid of their own congregation--it wasn't so much about my ex (although there certainly was that) but rather it was about not wanting they themselves to come under the judging and criticizing eye of their own people, as people there are addicted to doing.

I do agree there is a spirit of cowardice but I don't think it's based on fear of their congregation. Rather it is fear not lining up with their fellow "responsible ones" or even their revered brothers in Anaheim. The spirit of cowardice is one of shrinking back from confrontation. They want to be always positive. anything denoting a NEGATIVE SITUATION, THEY DO NOT WANT TO TOUCH IT! Elders would rather chose to ignore anything negative unless it involves criticism of the ministry. In a sense what Ohio has said many times is true. The system makes bullies out of good brothers. Elders and deacons will go on the offensive to discipline you, but when it comes them being placed on the defense, elders/co-workers go silent.
As for fear of the congregation, I never had that sense. What I had been told during a meeting by the lead elder, is the church is not a democracy.

As for divorced couples remarrying, I am stunned by your experience. Here in the NW there are at least two elders I know of who remarried after being divorced. That's not to mention other couples I am aware of who divorced their spouses only to remarry. That's why I believe the brother's discipline of you had less to do with your relationship and more to do with their peers. Perhaps one of their peers is the father of your ex-wife? Thus they need to show partiality. As was the case here in the NW, but under different circumstances.

Chris Fleming · 12-22-2013, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Reading this last post raised some questions:
1. What are the grounds of the "restriction"?
2. Have the "saints" been warned not to have contact with you?
3. Had your ex-wife suffered the same fate of trying to move on?

Rather I sense partiality levied against you because of the relational aspect of your ex-wife's family.

so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
1 Corinthians 12:25-26

1. They believe I am still married to the woman who divorced me...in the eyes of the Lord. I took one of her last words to me at face value when she said she wants the "freedom to see other people". That is all the proof I need.

2. I don't believe so. I am a complete nobody there and did not merit any meeting held on my behalf. Frankly their group is better off w/o me there.

3. No she is free to meet with them. Let that sink in.

bearbear · 12-23-2013, 07:26 PM

Hi Chris,

I left the LCs a few years back and you can read my testimony in the other thread "Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation" if you're interested. I came to know that the bible doesn't teach free grace theology: the belief that you are assured salvation after profession of belief in Christ Jesus.

According to Wikipedia, the adherents of free grace theology in Christianity is a small subset:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Grace_theology

"Its prominent present-day expressions are the Grace Evangelical Society, the Free Grace Alliance, the Plymouth Brethren, and the local churches. "

So we should do our homework to see if the bible really teaches this. You can see the Repentance thread I mentioned earlier for arguments why Jesus and the writers of the NT simply didn't adhere to this doctrine.

I agree most of everyone in the LCs have no idea what they're doing because they have strayed from God's word and I'm sorry for the hurt that was put on you.

However I am afraid for your salvation if you do remarry assuming that the original marriage did not break up due to sexual immorality. But don't take my words for it-- Here's an article I'd like you to read from John Piper- a true man of God and widely known and respected Christian pastor and author.

http://delightintruth.com/2013/04/22...-always-saved/

I've posted the text from this article below for others to read as well:

“Once saved, always saved” has become an evangelical cliché which grossly misrepresents the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. It has unfortunately been used by immature Christians and perhaps even unsaved “Christians” as a license to sin.

Here’s what John Piper has to say about the subject in his book Future Grace (via Delight in Truth friend Gabe Bogdan):

“A few years ago I spoke to a high school student body on how to fight lust. One of my points was called, “Ponder the eternal danger of lust.” I quoted the words of Jesus–that it’s better to go to heaven with one eye than to hell with two–and said to the students that their eternal destiny was at stake in what they did with their eyes and with the thoughts of their imagination…

After my message… one of the students… asked, “Are you saying then that a person can lose his salvation?”

…This is exactly the same response I got a few years ago when I confronted a man about the adultery he was living in…

I pled with him to return to his wife. Then I said, “You know, Jesus says that if you don’t fight this sin with the kind of seriousness that is willing to gouge out your own eye, you will go to hell”…

As a professing Christian he looked at me in utter disbelief, as though he had never heard anything like this in his life, and said, “You mean you think a person can lose his salvation?”

…So I have learned again and again from firsthand experience that there are many professing Christians who have a view of salvation that disconnects it from real life, and that nullifies the threats of the Bible, and puts the sinning person who claims to be a Christian beyond the reach of biblical warnings.

I believe this view of the Christian life is comforting thousands who are on the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13)…

The main concern of this book is to show that the battle against sin is a battle against unbelief. Or: the fight for purity is a fight for faith in future grace.

The great error that I am trying to explode is the error that says, “Faith in God is one thing and the fight for holiness is another thing… The battle for obedience is optional because only faith is necessary for final salvation.” (John Piper, Future Grace pg. 330-331 and 333)

It is a grave error to separate obedience to the Word from an initial conversion type event. Disobedience, lack of striving for holiness, and lack of perseverance in the faith may be indicative that the professing Christian is not saved.

12-23-2013, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Hello everyone!

… I think there is a lot of benefit to the LSM churches, …

--Chris

There are a lot of benefits in joining cults which is why people join them. And there are consequences for leaving. The consequences for leaving is the struggle to find out who you really are which often drives people back in, loss of friends and the threat of various types of punishments for leaving such as ‘the dark room’ in LC theology which I have only now heard about.

I wish I didn’t have the experiences which lead me into the WWCG and I have had a 17 year fight to ‘come right’ so to speak. But that is by-the-by. My Lord and Saviour knows.

12-23-2013, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Hello everyone!

… I think there is a lot of benefit to the LSM churches, …

--Chris

There are a lot of benefits in joining cults which is why people join them. And there are consequences for leaving. The consequences for leaving is the struggle to find out who you really are which often drives people back in, loss of friends and the threat of various types of punishments for leaving such as ‘the dark room’ in LC theology which I have only now heard about.

I wish I didn’t have the background experiences which lead me into the WWCG and I have had a 17 year fight to ‘come right’ so to speak. But that is by-the-by. My Lord and Saviour knows.

bearbear · 12-23-2013, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

There are a lot of benefits in joining cults which is why people join them. And there are consequences for leaving. The consequences for leaving is the struggle to find out who you really are which often drives people back in, loss of friends and the threat of various types of punishments for leaving such as ‘the dark room’ in LC theology which I have only now heard about.

I wish I didn’t have the experiences which lead me into the WWCG and I have had a 17 year fight to ‘come right’ so to speak. But that is by-the-by. My Lord and Saviour knows.

I just want you to know that Father God loves you more than you even can fathom even if you don't sense it. He's prepared a home for you in eternity that is greater than any mind on earth can grasp. The only thing you have to do is realize that you cannot save yourself and you are hopeless without him. cry out to him to save you and show you the way to salvation through Jesus. Repent of your sins and ask the Holy Spirit to live in you, then follow the Holy Spirit as he guides you on the narrow way that leads to eternal life.

Here's a video with verses on God's love for you:
http://www.fathersloveletter.com

Here's my website with videos on what God has in store for you for your eternity and how you can walk the narrow way with Jesus to your true home in heaven:
Http://eternityinourheart.com

NeitherFirstnorLast · 12-23-2013, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

RE.....John Piper- a true man of God and widely known and respected Christian pastor and author.

http://delightintruth.com/2013/04/22...-always-saved/

I've posted the text from this article below for others to read as well:

“Once saved, always saved” has become an evangelical cliché which grossly misrepresents the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. It has unfortunately been used by immature Christians and perhaps even unsaved “Christians” as a license to sin.

...It is a grave error to separate obedience to the Word from an initial conversion type event. Disobedience, lack of striving for holiness, and lack of perseverance in the faith may be indicative that the professing Christian is not saved.

Bearbear, John Piper's theology is quite a bit different and more complex than you seem to suggest here. John Piper is a Reformed Christian, and a devout 5-Point Calvinist - and if you're familiar with it, you know that one of Calvinism's main tenets is "Perseverance of the Saints" - or as some have stated it, "Once Saved, Always Saved". Salvation is a free gift of God, we don't earn it, we don't deserve it, and we don't have the strength to keep it. Salvation is ENTIRELY by the Grace of God, and it is this grace which he (Piper) advocates we live in, DAILY. I too am doing a study currently from his book, "Living in Future Grace".

I encourage you to listen to Piper's Sermons in defense and explanation of Calvinism. You can find them here: John Piper on TULIP (<-- Click on link).

....To what you are saying, regarding living in willful sin, that is something that Piper would say is evidence of a LACK of salvation (not a LOSS of salvation) - evidence that someone was never truly saved. (Jesus didn't say to the "workers of lawlessness" who cried to Him "Lord, Lord!" that he used to know them but hasn't heard from them lately. No, He says "I NEVER knew you".

...And we are not called to judge others. Christ, in fact, warns us against that on multiple occasions (Matthew 7:1-3, John 8:7, Romans 2:1-3, James 4:11-12) Rather, we are called to weigh the evidence and judge ourselves. "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" 2nd Corinthians 13:5.

Listen to the series on Tulip, Bearbear - and be encouraged!

Your friend in Christ,

Ray

12-23-2013, 09:24 PM

Hi bearbear

Thank you for the encouragement.

I'm well on my way with the Lord. My reason for joining this forum is to assist in my understand of my friend who is very deep into the LC.

bearbear · 12-23-2013, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

...And we are not called to judge others. Christ, in fact, warns us against that on multiple occasions (Matthew 7:1-3, John 8:7, Romans 2:1-3, James 4:11-12) Rather, we are called to weigh the evidence and judge ourselves. "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" 2nd Corinthians 13:5.

Hi Ray,

Something I've come to learn is the difference between confronting someone's sin so they can repent and "judging". Judgment is declaring a final punishment on the way someone is living without mercy and the option of repentance. For example Hebrews 9:27 says it is appointed for men to die once and then comes judgment. (after you die there's no chance to repent, so the only thing left is judgment which is final)

There are many instances in the bible (Galatians 6, Matthew 18, etc) where we are called to confront our brother's and sisters who are living in willful sin so they can repent and return to the narrow way that leads to life. It's done out of love and making sure they finish the Christian race with no intention of bringing shame onto them which only sinks them further. I'm more than willing to bring up my own past. I used to be addicted to porn, but I cried out to God to deliver me. He showed me how to overcome it through prayer, time spent in the word, confessing it to others (book of James) and holding every thought captive in obedience to Christ. Eventually the lust completely vanished though it was gradual process. I believe the desires of our flesh is like a monster that grows when we feed it. If we don't feed it, eventually it'll starve and die-- and we feed our spirit instead which gives us true satisfaction when we enjoy God's presence daily by praying and doing his will.

Also I'm something of an experimental TULIP Calvinist (OSAS after you die and find yourself in heaven) though I do believe there are tests we can perform on ourselves in 2 Peter and Galatians and elsewhere to see if we are walking in the faith. I do agree Jesus won't lose any that belong to him, but it's difficult to know if you really do belong to him except through our spirit and the Holy Spirit who testifies we are children of God. So it's best not to test God but to also willfully live our faith to the end while inviting God's grace in our life everyday through daily repentance and living according to the Spirit.

John Piper also talks about this here, telling Christians as Peter did to "confirm their calling and election" by striving for the faith: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-...-your-election

When I say "lose your salvation" - I am really referring to the parable of the sower, where the seeds that didn't land in the good earth perished later due to having no root or because they were choked by the thorns. The bible says these people actually believed for a while and even received God's word with joy! But whether these people "lost their salvation" or were "never saved to begin with" is more about semantics to me than anything. But for sure they never belonged to Jesus and were not chosen from the foundation of the world.

That said I agree with you about Jesus saying I never knew you. Another verse that confirms this is:

1 John 3:6
"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

That's what makes me lean towards Calvinism instead of Arminianism.

I wrote a little bit about this in my testimony at the end if you are interested:
http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-out-free.html

Sam

TLFisher · 12-23-2013, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

I do agree there is a spirit of cowardice but I don't think it's based on fear of their congregation. Rather it is fear not lining up with their fellow "responsible ones" or even their revered brothers in Anaheim. The spirit of cowardice is one of shrinking back from confrontation. They want to be always positive. anything denoting a NEGATIVE SITUATION, THEY DO NOT WANT TO TOUCH IT! Elders would rather chose to ignore anything negative unless it involves criticism of the ministry. In a sense what Ohio has said many times is true. The system makes bullies out of good brothers. Elders and deacons will go on the offensive to discipline you, but when it comes them being placed on the defense, elders/co-workers go silent.

Just as an example there is a brother whom Ron Kangas called "a man of death" publicly at a recorded International conference held in South America. Yet when it came time for Ron to account for what he spoke via email, mail, and even via phone at his home, there has been no response.
Other examples may be forthcoming.

bearbear · 12-23-2013, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Just as an example there is a brother whom Ron Kangas called "a man of death" publicly at a recorded International conference held in South America. Yet when it came time for Ron to account for what he spoke via email, mail, and even via phone at his home, there has been no response.
Other examples may be forthcoming.

I used to hold bitterness against Witness Lee, Philip Lee (even though they were dead hah) and the Blended Brothers and all their fiascos after finding out the truth thanks to this wonderful forum.

I realized later that part of it was because I didn't trust that God could judge them rightly and wanted so bad to take vengeance by myself. According to my theology at the time we'd all see each other in heaven and my subconscious mind found that thought to be unfair.

2 Timothy 2:19 clearly says however that those who belong to the Lord must depart from wickedness and there's no room for God to budge on that because the foundation that bears it cannot be moved and the seal cannot be erased or changed:

"But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from wickedness.”"

According to Galatians 5:19-21 this wickedness includes things like selfish ambition, envy, strife etc. all which we unfortunately see unfold so often in churches that adhere to free grace doctrine like the LCs because there is no fear of God (see the history of the strife that occurred in the Plymouth Brethren also).

One day many will face the door to eternity in heaven thinking they can get in and Jesus will have to give them the bad news. So I've learned to let God be a just judge, because he really is. In the end it's just best to forgive and let go of all the bitterness. God has prepared so many good works for us to further his kingdom! We're missing out on a lot of glory if we dwell too much on other people's iniquity. However that's not to say we shouldn't warn folks about false teachers like both Jesus and the NT writers advised us to, so we should continue to spread that warning. Eph 5:11 also tells us to expose the works of Satan and bring them to light.

I've written more about 2 Timothy 2:19 here if you're interested:
http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...piano-has.html

NeitherFirstnorLast · 12-24-2013, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Hi Ray,

Something I've come to learn is the difference between confronting someone's sin so they can repent and "judging". Judgment is declaring a final punishment on the way someone is living without mercy and the option of repentance. ...There are many instances in the bible (Galatians 6, Matthew 18, etc) where we are called to confront our brother's and sisters who are living in willful sin so they can repent and return to the narrow way that leads to life.
Sam

This dialogue really belongs in another thread, and perhaps a moderator can move it back to your thread on taking the cross (or elsewhere), but I wanted to respond back with a quote to keep the conversation linear.

First, thank you for your considered response, Sam. I can agree that we are to help pick up the stumbled believer... Galatians 6:1 comes to mind with the admonition:

"Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself."

My concern when I hear "hellfire" preaching, however, is that it is only very rarely done in a spirit of gentleness and humility, and even when it is, it is done after making assumptions about another's spiritual condition. Assumption we can't and do not have the right to make. After all, God (we are told) judges the heart:

1 Samuel 16:7b "'Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.'"

& again,

Jeremiah 17:10 "But I, the LORD, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve."

Further, the aim of "hellfire" preaching seems to me to be that we human beings can reason someone into a faith they either don't have or into a walk that looks more godly to our eyes, but may or may not actually be godly (because we can't know men's hearts). Yes, we can judge a tree by it's fruit, but trees change with seasons and we only see in a single space and time called "right here" and "right now"; we don't know what has come before or will come afterward. In addition to that, the exhortation to judge a tree by it's fruit in the Bible is given about judging the teaching of those who would be spiritual leaders, NOT about judging fellow bond-slaves of Jesus Christ.

I have a dear friend who is battling with Arminianism. He really seems enamored by the story of the rich young ruler, and he ALWAYS goes back to it and says "See, unless you give up everything for Christ, you can't be Saved!!" - but that was not at all the point of that story. The point of that story is summed up at it's end; after the Disciples, looking on in incredulity and aghast at the implications of this young man's apparent fate cry out in despair "Who then can be Saved?!" It's summed up in Christ's answer to that forlorn cry:

But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God." Luke 18:27

I admit that The Lord can use your excoriation of a fellow believer, if He chooses to. However, without the Holy Spirit, your words will fall on deaf ears. Stephen could not have preached a more Godly Sermon to the Sanhedrin, and yet he saved not a one of them.

I believe (personally) your heart is right, Sam. I believe you are a brother in Christ and you long to serve your Lord. I praise God for giving you that heart for Him. At the same time, I can't help but feel that you need to be careful what you say and how you say it. Hellfire preaching can cause a believer to stumble, and you know what Christ said about those who cause a "little one" to stumble. Just be careful, brother... and keep in prayer.

Your friend in Christ,

Ray

PS: I agree that "Free Grace" theology, AKA "Easy-Believism" is a false teaching and a damnable heresy. Telling someone to say "Lord Jesus" three times, without them understanding who He is and what accepting Him as your "Lord" really means does nothing for them at all.

bearbear · 12-24-2013, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I believe (personally) your heart is right, Sam. I believe you are a brother in Christ and you long to serve your Lord. I praise God for giving you that heart for Him. At the same time, I can't help but feel that you need to be careful what you say and how you say it. Hellfire preaching can cause a believer to stumble, and you know what Christ said about those who cause a "little one" to stumble. Just be careful, brother... and keep in prayer.

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Actually if you look at the Greek for that verse, what Christ means by "stumble" is "causing to sin" which other translations also confirm (NLT, ESV etc). So to me this verse is saying we are in real trouble if we say round up a bunch of kids and introduce them to porn, defiling their once pure hearts which would have been their ticket to heaven. My favorite story of redemption regarding this is how Jesus had mercy on a kid whose Grandma taught him how to sell crack when he was 10 years old:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbXeP...wN2mGr5ecfz2kl

Regarding using hell or fear of God as a motivator:

Jesus taught us to be fishers of men. I believe that was a wonderful picture because every fish has a different type of bait that it needs. This extends to the reality that God made everyone with a unique personality and a unique heart. The human heart is a mystery and we really need the Spirit of God to know how to reach each person individually. I think that's why Paul said prophecy is the best gift because it allows us to see into people's hearts to minister to them in a way that can impact their eternity for the better.

1 Cor 14:24-25
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you

So I definitely agree that there is a type of hellfire preaching that can scare all the fish away. Jesus told us he desires mercy and not sacrifice, and many of these preachers are not merciful at all.

However Jesus did spend 1/3 of his ministry preaching on hell for a good reason. He wants as many as possible to make it to heaven with him because the reality is there are too many temptations in the world that can ensnare us.

I love that verse too that with God all things are possible. We are hopeless without God's mercy and grace. One of my favorite verses is this one:

Mark 9:24
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”.

The father wanted as much as he could to believe but he realized he was hopeless without God's grace so he asked for Jesus to help him. This to me is the real meaning of "call on the Lord and you'll be saved!". The context is we realize we are in a dire situation and we need to get out of it. However because of our flesh we are hopeless to rescue ourselves and in need of a Savior. That's when we call on Jesus to save us out of desperation because we used up all our lifelines. And he will *ALWAYS* faithfully respond to our cry of help and rescue us -- not once -- but to the end as we rely on and ask for his mercy and grace daily until we reach that door to eternal life.

That said my own testimony is that I came to love the Lord with all my heart due to the fear of being eternally damned after finding out free grace was not taught in the bible. I was just a fish swimming in the ocean who was caught by the "fear of God" bait. I knew I was in eternal danger because I had a porn addiction and many other false idols of the world I was worshipping with my heart. Because I was so ensnared, I instantly realized I couldn't deliver myself so I *fully surrendered* my life to Jesus and asked God for help. And hallelujah! he came through for me-- THANK YOU JESUS. My whole life I thought I was a born-again Christian because I "believed", but after I asked the Holy Spirit in my life from that day of true repentance, my life was totally never the same and I felt myself growing and having this insatiable hunger for the Lord everyday for the first time ever.

And God didn't let me stay in a state of fear, but in his love and mercy he faithfully turned the fear I had for him into love after he made known his own love for me in a personal and intimate way. It's in my testimony here:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-out-free.html

I believe fear of God is still *VERY* relevant in the new covenant. There's just not enough fear among most Christians in America today - which they show when they become lukewarm and love the world. Yesterday in the spirit of Christmas time, I read the story of Jesus' birth in Luke and came across this verse which Mary proclaims after her visit with Elizabeth:

Luke 1:50
And his mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.

God still wants us to fear him today for our own good. But he's faithful to "cast" out that fear with his perfect love (1 John 4:18) because God delights in those who fear him. Without fear people have zero wisdom because fear is the beginning of wisdom. Without wisdom there is no way to discern if we are walking on the narrow way to life or the broad way that leads to death.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.

bearbear · 12-24-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I have a dear friend who is battling with Arminianism. He really seems enamored by the story of the rich young ruler, and he ALWAYS goes back to it and says "See, unless you give up everything for Christ, you can't be Saved!!" - but that was not at all the point of that story. The point of that story is summed up at it's end; after the Disciples, looking on in incredulity and aghast at the implications of this young man's apparent fate cry out in despair "Who then can be Saved?!" It's summed up in Christ's answer to that forlorn cry:
But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God." Luke 18:27

What I would minister to him is that he needs to experience God's rest. This reminds me of a very interesting conundrum in scripture that I asked the Lord for revelation and it was this:

1. Jesus tells us to make every effort to enter through the narrow way, because many will strive but not be able to enter. (Depressing ain't it? That's probably what your friend is afraid of)

2. Jesus calls to all those who are weary or heavy laden to come to him to find rest for their souls because his yoke is easy and his burden is light.

How can these two points exist together?

That's what I asked God and he gave me this verse:

Hebrews 4:11
Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

In other words, Jesus is saying "make every effort to enter God's rest!". If we feel like we are struggling real hard to make something happen, we're doing it wrong. Instead we have to be like that father who said "I believe! Help my unbelief!". He was desperate and hungry for God's grace and realized the futility of self effort. When we call on God's grace for strength we are empowered by Christ who lives in us by which we can overcome every obstacle while experiencing rest. I like the picture of David casually slaying Goliath with a slingshot, I imagine him doing it with much grace and ease as the Spirit of God was upon him.

What I love about the bible is that there are tons of verses like these that seemingly contradict each other (another one is Eph 2:8-9 and James 2:24). But when you have the Spirit of God who guides us to all truth, you realize that they aren't contradicting but they're just carving out the reality that God's truth is *extremely* nuanced. Unfortunately that's why we have thousands of denominations today, but if you have the Spirit of God, you really can make it all work out. That's my experience anyway.

In regards to giving away wealth, I don't think Jesus puts that burden on us-- he was only saying it to that ruler because he wanted to convict his heart because the ruler made riches his idol. However God does require that we give our whole hearts to him and not love money. Like you said earlier God only cares about our heart. That said if you see someone needy and don't give him anything, there's probably something wrong with your heart.

Jesus personally damns the goats in Matthew 25 for ignoring the needs of the poor as if they were ignoring him. True faith in Christ will cause us to help the poor out of love. Apostle James preaches on this in chapter 2 as well. Also not many realize what the true sin of Sodom was:

Ezekiel 16
49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.

Chris Fleming · 12-25-2013, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

This dialogue really belongs in another thread, and perhaps a moderator can move it

That would be nice...

UntoHim · 12-25-2013, 01:01 PM

Merry Christmas to all!

Please point out the posts to move and a suggested thread title and I'll get to it ASAP.

bearbear · 12-25-2013, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Merry Christmas to all!

Please point out the posts to move and a suggested thread title and I'll get to it ASAP.

Merry Christmas everyone. Hallelujah for our Saviour!

I propose "Can problems in LCs leadership be traced to no fear of God/hell? Should Christians still fear God?"

Posts that are relevant are mine and ray's posts starting from #49

Chris Fleming · 12-26-2013, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Merry Christmas to all!

Please point out the posts to move and a suggested thread title and I'll get to it ASAP.

We started to go off track at about #45

bearbear · 12-26-2013, 05:04 PM

When the Local Church excommunicates you they do it to shame you and to "protect" their church from you. However when Paul tells the church to excommunicate a sinner, it's done out of love for the sake of their eternity. Even the act of excommunication is supposed to be done out of love.

1 Corinthians 5:5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Whenever we feel shame, it's always from Satan. God will never bring shame upon us because he bore our shame on the cross. Romans 10:11 says “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

When the Holy Spirit convicts us his purpose is for us to turn away from our sin onto God. We can turn back to the Father without shame and he will always receive us, as the Father received the prodigal son after he repented without shame. So if a sinner doesn't repent within the church, the only merciful thing to do is to force them to leave the church because if they don't repent in church they might repent outside of it (Matthew 18). So even the act of excommunication is supposed to be done out of love.

I'm sorry what happened to you Chris and I'm sorry for the shame that was brought on you. Because many in the LCs are blind to the meaning behind God's word, they often don't have the right idea of how to apply it. It's still my hope that you can find a way to return to your first wife however, or stay single for the sake of your salvation when the Lord comes back. I believe in the power of prayer and it's possible the Lord can heal your marriage through spiritual warfare by praying.

I wish it could be easier, but God will judge us by his word and not by the standards that society has set. Societal standards change over time but God is the same yesterday today and forever. Heaven and earth will pass away but God's words never will. The world is passing away with its desires but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Matthew 19:9
And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Chris Fleming · 12-26-2013, 08:25 PM

This will be my first and very last response to you on this particular topic. I'm not taking it to private message because YOU, whoever you are, have chosen to make this public in the first place.

What you are doing is spreading satanically inspired fear and I hope others see this as a public service announcement. I have spoken at length with people who believe that you can gain and lose your salvation over and over and over again long ago and it never turns out well. For as many Bible verses as I can show you that you are completely wrong, you'll twist that many more to keep your fear based bondage, and not only this, DEMAND that others live their lives in fear as well, so I won't play that game.

It's one thing to not accept Christ--these people can do as they please w/o any sense of the hell that awaits them. That is horrible but to think that you can believe into Christ and STILL NOT KNOW that you are saved, to always be thinking that your life and eternal destination STILL hangs in the balance, that you may have made some mistake and have to constantly wrack your brain to see if you need to gain your salvation back, that sir, is straight from the hell you are in constant fear of and NOT of the Lord.

Nobody is saying your belief in Christ now gives you a license to sin. That is just crazy. I for one will not be crucifying my Lord over and over and over again, thinking that I have gone from being saved to unsaved to saved again.

From the very outset, the people who have this kind of doctrine of demons ALL say the same thing, and I'm sorry but you were no different--they ALL start by saying, "I am afraid for your salvation!!!". Afraid, being the operative word. And without you knowing it, you are seeking to pass on this spiritual sickness and spiritual attack on to others, to try to get people to fear once more like you, to try to get people who once knew that they knew they were redeemed by Christ to now question HIM and His redemption.

I for one will not just sit here and let you try to put this kind of living hell on me and everyone else who reads without being a testimony against you.

That is all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

When the Local Church excommunicates you they do it to shame you and to "protect" their church from you. However when Paul tells the church to excommunicate a sinner, it's done out of love for the sake of their eternity. Even the act of excommunication is supposed to be done out of love.

1 Corinthians 5:5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Whenever we feel shame, it's always from Satan. God will never bring shame upon us because he bore our shame on the cross. Romans 10:11 says “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

When the Holy Spirit convicts us his purpose is for us to turn away from our sin onto God. We can turn back to the Father without shame and he will always receive us, as the Father received the prodigal son after he repented without shame. So if a sinner doesn't repent within the church, the only merciful thing to do is to force them to leave the church because if they don't repent in church they might repent outside of it (Matthew 18). So even the act of excommunication is supposed to be done out of love.

I'm sorry what happened to you Chris and I'm sorry for the shame that was brought on you. Because many in the LCs are blind to the meaning behind God's word, they often don't have the right idea of how to apply it. It's still my hope that you can find a way to return to your first wife however, or stay single for the sake of your salvation when the Lord comes back. I believe in the power of prayer and it's possible the Lord can heal your marriage through spiritual warfare by praying.

I wish it could be easier, but God will judge us by his word and not by the standards that society has set. Societal standards change over time but God is the same yesterday today and forever. Heaven and earth will pass away but God's words never will. The world is passing away with its desires but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Matthew 19:9
And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

bearbear · 12-26-2013, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

This will be my first and very last response to you on this particular topic. I'm not taking it to private message because YOU, whoever you are, have chosen to make this public in the first place.

Hi Brother thank you for letting me know. I will never bring it up again and I still love you. I'm used to displays of anger towards me because a spirit of anger always seems to follow me as I'm on my way somewhere to preach the gospel, so trust me I still love you

I believe God allows this to test my resolve-- if I respond in anger then I lose his anointing and will be ineffective in my preaching as has happened once before.

I'm between experimental and five point Calvinism so I don't technically think you can lose your salvation (I define salvation here as belonging to God, a status that cannot be lost). However I do think the bible teaches that you can "believe" and receive the word with joy but be choked by the anxieties and demands of this temporary world we live in (see parable of the sower). Basically I don't believe mere profession of belief in the Lord saves you, but a genuine born again experience by the Holy Spirit which happens after you fully surrender your life to Jesus via whole hearted repentance and in doing so you make your heart the good soil that can bear fruit 30 fold, 60 fold, 100 fold. This is why I'm such a stickler on repentance

There is a test we can perform on ourselves to see if we are saved because scripture says the Spirit himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. So if you exhibit these qualities in increasing stature day by day, you are a child of God!

So basically I had to choose between saying "afraid of losing salvation" and "it's possible you were never saved to begin with". I thought the former would be more polite even though it violates my Calvinism. It's nothing to be ashamed of though, I lived most of my life thinking I was saved when I wasn't. Heck I even served a whole bunch in my LC. I also used to experience a lot of worry and anxiety in my life, however after I repented and received the Holy Spirit all that went away and I experienced the true peace that surpasses all understanding. I now know what it means to experience God's rest.

Paul tells the Corinthian believers to examine themselves if they are in the faith so we should do this at least once in our life, otherwise it's possible that we've "believed in vain" (1 Cor 15:2). I'll however leave this last scripture for both of us to meditate on.

"And his mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation." - Luke 1:50

"but the LORD takes pleasure in those who fear him, in those who hope in his steadfast love." - Psalms 147:11

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," - Philippians 2:12

“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. - Luke 13:24

"For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." - Matthew 7:14

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - Matthew 7:21

Also I wanted to add it's very interesting you mentioned "believed into Jesus" because that is the correct translation for it. Many translations say "in" instead of "into", however the Greek word eis really means into. There's a lot of implications of that and I've just written a blog post today about this:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...nto-jesus.html

Love in Christ,

Sam

Ohio · 12-27-2013, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Hi Brother thank you for letting me know. I will never bring it up again and I still love you. I'm used to displays of anger towards me because a spirit of anger always seems to follow me as I'm on my way somewhere to preach the gospel ...

Brother Sam,

What Chris posted was not a 'display of anger" neither sourced in a "spirit of anger." It is not necessary for you to so quickly jump to extremes.

Unfortunately you are not the first Christian I have known who are on an agenda-driven mission to remedy the rest of the body of Christ. Each of these dear saints were driven by zeal to bring their message of discouragement to the body of Christ, all the while convincing themselves that they were one of the few who had begun to please God. Then whenever pushback comes their way, they convince themselves that it is only the prophets' persecution.

Like I said before, I am truly joyful that your heart has returned to God. This was an answer to others' prayers. Please don't turn one extreme into another. The LC's have tons of verses to support their agenda, and you have yours. I think Igzy said it best when he tried to point out to you that any thing we can do -- beyond simple faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ necessary to save us from our sins -- becomes a self-righteous boast to puff up our hearts.

What we do with God's gift, whether we fail or prosper in the faith, determines whether the Lord will discipline or reward us at His coming. We should not consider any scripture warning us of this discipline as the loss of salvation, nor that we were even saved in the first place.

bearbear · 12-27-2013, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Sam,

What Chris posted was not a 'display of anger" neither sourced in a "spirit of anger." It is not necessary for you to so quickly jump to extremes.

Unfortunately you are not the first Christian I have known who are on an agenda-driven mission to remedy the rest of the body of Christ. Each of these dear saints were driven by zeal to bring their message of discouragement to the body of Christ, all the while convincing themselves that they were one of the few who had begun to please God. Then whenever pushback comes their way, they convince themselves that it is only the prophets' persecution.

Like I said before, I am truly joyful that your heart has returned to God. This was an answer to others' prayers. Please don't turn one extreme into another. The LC's have tons of verses to support their agenda, and you have yours. I think Igzy said it best when he tried to point out to you that any thing we can do -- beyond simple faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ necessary to save us from our sins -- becomes a self-righteous boast to puff up our hearts.

What we do with God's gift, whether we fail or prosper in the faith, determines whether the Lord will discipline or reward us at His coming. We should not consider any scripture warning us of this discipline as the loss of salvation, nor that we were even saved in the first place.

Hi Ohio, thanks for the gentle correction. I will leave it at that and didn't mean to force my agenda or violate anyone's free will. I hope you will read my posts as just another voice and perspective at the scriptures and not a command. I will ask The Lord to give me more humility and gentleness. Looking back I should have PM'd. Sorry for blowing up this thread. God bless everyone.

OBW · 12-27-2013, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

He said that the word excommunication isn't in the Bible (just like "community saint", right?) and they prefer to only use terms which are found there, so he said, "in this situation our decisions is to....uh....follow the Bible and...uh.....remove...".

"Remove the evil one from your midst?!?!?", I asked. No response.

This kind of double-speak is such baloney.

I agree that the word excommunication isn't in the Bible. Actually, not a single English word is in the Bible. Everything is a translation.

And in some cases, we have created words that become the name of something that originally required several words, or even sentences to say. That is what is created over time when we slowly agree upon a single word that had a definition of several words. Early language required lengthy description. And some languages manage to create words by merely splicing words together. (I understand that the original German word for the war machine known as a tank was impossibly long, created by the concatenation of its features — motorized, armored, manned, track drive, with cannon and machine guns, gas powered, etc. — into a single word.)

So when someone says that any specific word is not in the Bible, it is time to turn them off. The lack of a specific word is meaningless.

If you declare that a person is not able to come and participate in the Lord's table, and you warn your congregants to avoid that person, and advise other churches of your actions toward that person, then they have been excluded from communion — excommunicated. Doesn't matter what word you use or whether the word is in the Bible. That is what has happened.

When someone declares you effectively excommunicated but declares that there is no such thing in the Bible, you have to decide whether the elevator does not reach the top floor for the one speaking, or they are hoping that it does not reach the top for you. Either way, there is no way that they are acting as a valid servant of Christ and of the body in their alleged leadership role.

The worst thing about listening to reports of this kind of nonsense is that I know several of the people who are in the position of the one you are talking about and my first inclination is to think that they are neither devious enough to say such a thing knowing that it is wrong, or to be stupid enough (or in sufficient of a fog) to not realize that what they are saying is spiritual/scriptural garbage.

And since I am unable to come up with a third alternative that lets them off the hook, I have to conclude that I am wrong.

And if the third alternative is going to be that it is about "deputy authority" and came from some kind of deputy authority (like a MOTA), then it still falls back to either the second alternative or some kind of combination (such as they like being an assistant deputy authority (which really comes back to the first in some ways)).

awareness · 12-27-2013, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Sorry for blowing up this thread. God bless everyone.

No harm don't. And I, for one, appreciate yer zeal. Amen. Amen.

So back to thread topic. Ya know, all of us on this forum, with a few possible exceptions, are in one fashion or another in the excommunicated box.

What a funny thing excommunication is. When I got the boot I was given a week to repent in front of the whole assembly or be excommunicated.

But I hadn't denied the Lord, God, the Bible, or the saints. As far as I was concerned I had nothing to repent of or for.

So what changes for me when I'm excommunicated? I can't meet or break bread with them any more. Is that a lost or a gain? Do I really want to meet with any one that treats me that way? Doesn't the Lord warn me to stay away from those kind of people?

Okay, the local church was/is a temporary sheep pen. Some times the shepherd needs to hold the sheep in a pen.

But then the shepherd calls the sheep by name, out of the sheep pen, into the pasture. There the shepherd is always with the sheep. And there's freedom in the pasture, and safety ... the shepherd will come and get you if you get lost.

Excommunicated? What a joke. Just who do they think they are?

countmeworthy · 12-27-2013, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Excommunicated? What a joke. Just who do they think they are?

Why the LSM of course !!!

bearbear · 12-27-2013, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

So what changes for me when I'm excommunicated? I can't meet or break bread with them any more. Is that a lost or a gain? Do I really want to meet with any one that treats me that way? Doesn't the Lord warn me to stay away from those kind of people?

Hallelujah what men meant for evil, God means for good! But ouch, it must have hurt to go through that.

I wasn't excommunicated.. but I just kinda left quietly. I was pretty ashamed for leaving at the time. I still feel bad about it kinda, because some of the brothers and sisters at my LC were pretty awesome and loving. I wish I could kidnap them to the current church where I'm at

They'd be so much healthier spiritually also.

If I went back to my LC I'm sure I'd be on their list of shame because they know well now about my website and blog. But it's alright, the only thing that matters is our relationship between us and the God who we'll face on Judgment day.

Chris Fleming · 12-27-2013, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Excommunicated? What a joke. Just who do they think they are?

People who think they have a monopoly on truth. There are A LOT of Christians who think they know everything about you, what the Bible says and you ought to be doing with your life, so the LC isn't alone in this.

Looking back on it, leaving there was the best thing for me. It was a trauma at first because I was FINALLY enjoying the place and ready to throw myself into whatever I would do there, but the Lord has shown me much more about what it is to be a Christian than I ever would have gotten from being there. That will surely sound ridiculous to someone still in their group but it is nevertheless the truth.

I'm here just to tell the truth about what happened, how they are VERY willing to twist the Bible as they please and the double standard they have towards "church kids". The CK's aren't at fault, but there is something seriously wrong with a church that allows a person to file for divorce, attack and excommunicate the OTHER party while letting the CK stay there like what they did was no big deal.

So that's my LC story--I went from not fitting in and having some reservations about the place, to having my church life "honeymoon", to then saying, naw, I was right the first time, you can keep it.

TLFisher · 12-27-2013, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I'm here just to tell the truth about what happened, how they are VERY willing to twist the Bible as they please and the double standard they have towards "church kids". The CK's aren't at fault, but there is something seriously wrong with a church that allows a person to file for divorce, attack and excommunicate the OTHER party while letting the CK stay there like what they did was no big deal.

The churchkids are not at fault. They are merely beneficiaries of a system that cannot be impartial.

and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," James 2:3

Having been a churchkid, I saw how the benefit of the doubt was extended time after time. Young people who weren't churchkids did not receive the same level of care. One I recall in particular was considered a bad influence and for all intent and purpose, excommunicated.

Ohio · 12-28-2013, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I'm here just to tell the truth about what happened, how they are VERY willing to twist the Bible as they please and the double standard they have towards "church kids".

I guess partiality and nepotism in the LC's should come as a surprise to no one. The rank and file parents were expected to obey all the rules when it came to their kids, but for the leaders, there often was no rules related to their kids.

(1) One time another deacon and his wife stopped by my place. They were visibly shaken up. They, particularly her, had just been railed up and down by our leading elder's wife. The whole time the elder said nothing. At the time, the couple cared for all the high school kids, having get-togethers and going on outings. What prompted her outburst was an initiative to call the kids in the morning to read the word before school. Imagine how damaging that would have been!

The couple were just shocked at the cruelty displayed by that "leading" sister, and were on the verge of tears. The brother, who is a gifted martial arts instructor for all ages, could not believe that any elder could just remain silent throughout the whole ordeal. Obviously the "elder" sister did not want her little Johnny participating in church activities with these serving ones. But as I have often said, this program turns loving saints into abusive rulers.

(2) Another time, a leading elder from Cleveland brought his little Jimmy over to live in our campus brothers' house. Little did I know that the kid was nothing but headaches. The rest of the brothers were struggling thru grad school and here comes little Jimmy from Cleveland who only wants to play with the girls. The brothers in the house were mad at me, "how could you put Jimmy in the house?" What could I do? I never gave him permission. Big Cleveland Elder just delivered the family nightmare to our little locality. Somehow, someway, we were supposed to "fix" his kid.

Well Jimmy trashed the place, and brought down a few other saints with him. Hundreds of dollars of repairs and days of work were needed to restore the place to a liveable condition after little Jimmy was moved back to Cleveland. At least a dozen times I was told that Big Cleveland Elder was a "gentleman," and would reimburse all the damages by his little Jimmy. A letter was sent to him itemizing expenses. Of course, he never responded to it. Big Cleveland Elder was a gentleman alright, but not to the other brothers. Normal people would have at least apologized, but not Big Cleveland Elder. On the contrary, I'm sure our local leader apologized to Big Cleveland Elder for not doing enough to help his little Jimmy.

bearbear · 12-28-2013, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Well Jimmy trashed the place, and brought down a few other saints with him. Hundreds of dollars of repairs and days of work were needed to restore the place to a liveable condition after little Jimmy was moved back to Cleveland. At least a dozen times I was told that Big Cleveland Elder was a "gentleman," and would reimburse all the damages by his little Jimmy. A letter was sent to him itemizing expenses. Of course, he never responded to it. Big Cleveland Elder was a gentleman alright, but not to the other brothers. Normal people would have at least apologized, but not Big Cleveland Elder. On the contrary, I'm sure our local leader apologized to Big Cleveland Elder for not doing enough to help his little Jimmy.

LOL I think I know who this is because he used to bully me when I was little. But we were cool later after I grew up.

I've never seen more behaved kids when I look at the the children of the elders of my current church. They love each other so much that they even hug each other all the time-- there's like no sibling rivalry which was mind blowing to me. The elders take a lot of effort to raise their children according to the word of God. God's word never fails!

1 Timothy 3:1-7 ESV
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?

Ohio · 12-28-2013, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

LOL I think I know who this is because he used to bully me when I was little. But we were cool later after I grew up.

Since his uncle was living in your back yard, he probably got away with all sorts of mischief.

You also bring up a great point about the children of elders outside of the Recovery. They often put ours to shame. We were constantly instructed to "trust the Lord" for our children, and never allow them to "halve our service," as the hymn said.

Chris Fleming · 01-04-2014, 10:06 AM

"How things have changed. In 1975/76, I learned to preach the gospel, to repent daily, to apply the Blood of Jesus daily, to edify the saints. IN THE LC for crying out loud!!"

See this was the problem I ran right into--as I grew more in the Lord it's natural that I would want to preach the gospel. There is no place for you to do this in the LC, at least that's how it is in Austin. You must be a "full time-er" who has gone to their training who then goes on to "serve on the campus".

Oh sure you'll hear from a "community saint" who brings a neighbor or co-worker of theirs to the Lord once in a while, and that's great, but there is strong focus, suffocating focus, on ONLY preaching to college kids. Freshmen only, even. They had a "reunion" where they explicitly talked about how only college freshmen are worthwhile.

I don't want to be some guy who goes through my whole life and just brings a friend of mine to the Lord, saving the real work of the gospel to those elite who have been "trained". The Bible shows that EVERY BELIEVER should be a disciple, should be DYNAMIC, should be POWERFUL, should be like Philip in the book of Acts, doing MASSIVE works as lead by the Lord to do.

Each person is going to have a different manifestation of this, but people are needed to win souls, people are needed to stand up against the strong delusion that is quickly enveloping this country, people are needed to stand against the tide of spiritual wickedness of these end times. ALL believers have this birthright and commission. My growth was clearly stunted being there, relegated to the label of "community saint".

It was in that reunion that they even made fun of an elder many years ago going to old folks homes to preach the gospel. I'm not kidding. Wish I was. It's always, campus...campus...

countmeworthy · 01-04-2014, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Quote:

"How things have changed. In 1975/76, I learned to preach the gospel, to repent daily, to apply the Blood of Jesus daily, to edify the saints. IN THE LC for crying out loud!!"

See this was the problem I ran right into--as I grew more in the Lord it's natural that I would want to preach the gospel. There is no place for you to do this in the LC, at least that's how it is in Austin. You must be a "full time-er" who has gone to their training who then goes on to "serve on the campus".

Oh sure you'll hear from a "community saint" who brings a neighbor or co-worker of theirs to the Lord once in a while, and that's great, but there is strong focus, suffocating focus, on ONLY preaching to college kids. Freshmen only, even. They had a "reunion" where they explicitly talked about how only college freshmen are worthwhile.

I don't want to be some guy who goes through my whole life and just brings a friend of mine to the Lord, saving the real work of the gospel to those elite who have been "trained".] The Bible shows that EVERY BELIEVER should be a disciple, should be DYNAMIC, should be POWERFUL, should be like Philip in the book of Acts, doing MASSIVE works as lead by the Lord to do.

Each person is going to have a different manifestation of this, but people are needed to win souls, people are needed to stand up against the strong delusion that is quickly enveloping this country, people are needed to stand against the tide of spiritual wickedness of these end times. ALL believers have this birthright and commission.

Yeah Man!! Preach it my brother in Christ!! WOO HOO!!

Quote:

My growth was clearly stunted being there, relegated to the label of "community saint".

It was in that reunion that they even made fun of an elder many years ago going to old folks homes to preach the gospel. I'm not kidding. Wish I was. It's always, campus...campus...

How very, very sad! What is WRONG with those people??!! I can only imagine how it must GRIEVE our Creator.

Chris Fleming · 05-10-2014, 10:18 PM

LOL. An update of sorts. A brother I know who is still in the LSM organization (but sees through the BS and elitism) told me he went to a conference and asked an elder he must have known (but is in another city) about my situation. Without using my name (wouldn't know me anyway), he asked the elder if it would be right to encourage me to go on and meet with other Christians/churches considering how I am no longer welcome in LSM. The elder's answer was,

"Yes!....No!....uh....it depends!"

Can't make this stuff up.

Really sums up their character--after being told that I am not allowed to speak to "the saints" (which I have discussed previously, their abuse of the word 'saint', twisting it to mean anyone in their insular group, as opposed to what it actually means, other Christians), they, at least this guy, doesn't want me to meet with anyone anywhere else. LOL elitist spiritual snobs!

Having been out for a while now, I can say firmly that I have no desire to ever go back to that system. One thing that I'll speak on now that I have seen is that there is NO competition between various church groups. LSM would like to make you think that everyone else is just lost and fighting when really the various groups I've seen are just doing what they are supposed to be doing, loving and serving the Lord.

It's so ironic, the only fighting and divisive ones are the LSM people, the people who claim only THEY are the ones doing it right.

UntoHim · 05-11-2014, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

but there is strong focus, suffocating focus, on ONLY preaching to college kids. Freshmen only, even. They had a "reunion" where they explicitly talked about how only college freshmen are worthwhile..

There are two main reasons this dynamic has developed in the LC. #1 freshmen tend to be a little more accepting (read: gullible) then their more senior college mates, and thus they are more likely to swallow the "higher gospel" of the Local Church. #2 It is less likely that they have heard about what is really taught behind LC doors, and it's less likely that they have done some serious research to find out about the true history of the movement. Don't know if the LC still uses "Christians On Campus", but this is a bit of a misnomer....they think they are the ONLY true Christian on campus.

TLFisher · 05-12-2014, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

LOL. An update of sorts. A brother I know who is still in the LSM organization (but sees through the BS and elitism) told me he went to a conference and asked an elder he must have known (but is in another city) about my situation. Without using my name (wouldn't know me anyway), he asked the elder if it would be right to encourage me to go on and meet with other Christians/churches considering how I am no longer welcome in LSM. The elder's answer was,

"Yes!....No!....uh....it depends!"

Can't make this stuff up.

Really sums up their character--after being told that I am not allowed to speak to "the saints" (which I have discussed previously, their abuse of the word 'saint', twisting it to mean anyone in their insular group, as opposed to what it actually means, other Christians), they, at least this guy, doesn't want me to meet with anyone anywhere else. LOL elitist spiritual snobs!

Even if you wanted to go on meeting with the local churches, it quite possible going to another locality and they would have no issue receiving you. Depending to what degree of being man-pleasers the leadership is, another locality would be less likely to make you an issue unless "fellowship" from a blended brother was given.

Chris Fleming · 05-12-2014, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Even if you wanted to go on meeting with the local churches, it quite possible going to another locality and they would have no issue receiving you. Depending to what degree of being man-pleasers the leadership is, another locality would be less likely to make you an issue unless "fellowship" from a blended brother was given.

Hmm...

Maybe but they are a gossip-y bunch. Say I was to move to another city and go to meet with them--it wouldn't be long before some elder asks me where I'm from. If I'm honest, which I would be, and tell them I came from Austin, the first thing they would do when I leave would be to call up Austin and ask about me. I have absolutely no doubt about this. That and in my case, there would be "fellowship" with their higher ups once it got found out who I was married to. No doubt.

Anyway, that conversation with my friend and the elder he asked wasn't really about me, it was about control on HIM. Sure, they don't want me meeting them or with anyone else, but there's no way an elder of theirs was going to tell one of their members that it would be ok to encourage such a "backslider" like me to go on with another group. It wasn't about me, it was about controlling one of their own by not recognizing other groups. Subtle, but I'm sure this was even unnoticed by that elder because he himself had been so programmed in the first place.

TLFisher · 05-13-2014, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Anyway, that conversation with my friend and the elder he asked wasn't really about me, it was about control on HIM.

I would agree with you here. It's about control and pride is reflected from the control. For example if you or anyone else wanted to have "fellowship" with one of the elders or have another brother serve as a witness, this would be unacceptable. They want control of the time and place. The control is manifested in the LC version "Diet of Worms". Instead of a one on one with a witness, they want a 12 on one or something similar where the situation is in their control. Then you have the venue. Say let's suggest a neutral location such as a brother's home, a restaurant, or even the church next door? That would be unacceptable. To keep control, the venue must be of their choosing. . Typically the fellowship room. I realize they might not consider it that way.

Chris Fleming · 05-14-2014, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

I would agree with you here. It's about control and pride is reflected from the control. For example if you or anyone else wanted to have "fellowship" with one of the elders or have another brother serve as a witness, this would be unacceptable. They want control of the time and place. The control is manifested in the LC version "Diet of Worms". Instead of a one on one with a witness, they want a 12 on one or something similar where the situation is in their control. Then you have the venue. Say let's suggest a neutral location such as a brother's home, a restaurant, or even the church next door? That would be unacceptable. To keep control, the venue must be of their choosing. . Typically the fellowship room. I realize they might not consider it that way.

For me I didn't even care that they wanted to meet in their own building and fellowship rooms. I was in at that time and it seemed normal to me. I didn't know it was all about control and you make a good point.

The bottom line is this--my ex started seeing other dudes and then filed for divorce. She is of course fully able to keep on meeting with them. I wanted to move on after this happened to me and have a godly marriage for once, which I now have, and that is totally unacceptable for them. Since that's how they are--going against their word, going against the Bible, making special concessions for certain members, they can keep their little group. So glad to be out.

TLFisher · 05-15-2014, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Since that's how they are--going against their word, going against the Bible, making special concessions for certain members, they can keep their little group.

This is why I generally see LC quarantines/excommunications as unscriptural as the quarantine/excommunication of a brother or sister is predicated on showing partiality to a person or persons.

My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

Chris Fleming · 12-15-2015, 11:54 AM

Hello all!

It's been a long time since I've been on here. It has helped me much to post what I have back then and I still stand by everything I've said. Just wanted to post on record here publicly that I have no grudge against LSM or anyone in their organization. Everything that the Lord does is right and I want to have no spirit of unforgiveness in my heart at all.

I rarely even think about LSM anymore. Too busy going on with the Lord. On a rare occasion I run into someone from their organization and it's strange--they get REALLY uncomfortable and pretend they didn't see me. I smile. Did I change or did they?

Jesus is Lord. Time is short. I have no time for games, sects and petty things. I wish them the very best and pray that the Lord bless them and their church group in every way.

aron · 12-16-2015, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Jesus is Lord. Time is short. I have no time for games, sects and petty things. I wish them the very best and pray that the Lord bless them and their church group in every way.

Hello Chris. Amen. Time is short. Thanks again for your initial posts on your LC experience, and glad to know all is well. It's good for people to see a testimony that one can leave the LC and go to a true local church, and not one kow-towing to the Maximum Brothers of a certain publishing house in Anaheim California, and live to tell the tale. Peace to you & your family.

And yes, peace to the LC church group, and blessings to them as well. I tend to be critical, but actually how can we have ill feelings toward those for whom Christ died?

But we can disagree. Paul told us that he would not be subject to such ones, not even for a minute. Amen to that.

11-13-2013, 08:44 PM	#5
Chris Fleming Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 45	Re: Excommunicated! Thank you all for the warm reception. Reminds me of a memory: A good friend of mine from my hometown of Pgh PA and dear (non LSM) brother once said to me that the Lord will put you in the church that He wants you to be in at that time. I agreed with him then and all the more so now. It's funny--my friend was in town and stayed with me for a couple weeks so naturally we went to the table meetings. It just so happens that a bunch of the favored church kids just got back from some gospel trips to some surrounding TX cities. The thing is, in a lot of these small cities like Abilene, you're more likely to knock on the door of a Christian than a non-believer. When in the meeting "sharing" about their experiences, kid after kid stood up and talked about how we need to share more with Christians and "show them more". No, it wasn't enough to meet a fellow Christian and have some prayer and fellowship, these people were lost, didn't know what they were doing and needed some 20 something year old kid to tell them where they ought to be meeting. I don't despise youth but I'll talk more about this kind of thing later--it was just so arrogant without them even knowing how they sounded. To be fair, I had several experiences like that myself back in my college days from others outside of LSM. While walking to class I would be accosted by some wacky Christian (or otherwise) group and when I would say I was a believer, the grilling would start. Do you believe in this doctrine, do you believe in that doctrine. Any "wrong" answer and I obviously wasn't saved. They couldn't just say Amen brother, isn't the Lord wonderful? But that little LSM experience is typical of how they really feel towards other believers. And there I was sitting with my guest. Hard to remember a time when I've been more embarrassed.

11-14-2013, 04:54 PM	#10
Chris Fleming Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 45	Re: Excommunicated! So about getting excommunicated, perhaps I should start from the beginning. I'll have to write this out in a few parts. Way back in the day I met an amazing woman who I fell in love with and married. I'm going to leave her name out of this, as she's had enough difficulties by me and this is about ME and how I was treated by the LC anyway. So I was young, mature in some ways but immature in others and she had some SERIOUS issues with her past and how she had been living for quite some time (she herself had been married before, getting remarried to me wasn't a problem because she's a church kid....the daughter of a VERY big name there. lets just keep it at that) but we were together and we more or less worked through things. It's too long of a story to tell like this but even prior to meeting her, I got a recovery version Bible back when I was in college. Thus marked the beginning of a long journey towards the Lord and Him arranging very many things which lead us moving to Austin TX. I firmly believe that the Lord brought us together and it was His will that we eventually move to Austin. I have no regrets and in fact can't picture things differently. All things work for our good. There were always problems with us, the relationship was rocky but real love was there. As it became clear that we were moving to Austin, we came under some SEVERE spiritual attack one after the other; our relationship was never the same after that. The church life itself was a stress, before we even moved my ex was getting emails from people in Austin who remembered that she was married once before, DEMANDING to know what happened. This, mind you, was independent of the elders there, who like I said had no issues with her or us. Needless to say it affected her. I didn't understand it at the time when she said that this would happen, but sure enough it did. So I had a bad taste in my mouth before I even got there. I was wondering, what kind of place am I going to? My reaction to the church life didn't help things. I found them to be very odd. All Christians are weird to some extent LOL but it was hard getting used to. The shouting, the strange tone of voice people slip into, the CONSTANT push for moving to other countries, the rather feminine character of the men there...it was all foreign to me. To be fair, a lot of my hang ups were of my own making, and slowly over time the Lord opened me up to being able to sing with others and to not be so defensive. People who know me know that I am usually serious, or at least that I LOOK like I'm serious or upset about something. It comes from my personality and it also comes from my cultural background. People who's ancestors descend from eastern Europe often look like they are pissed off. I can't help it. But when I go to a meeting, I am serious for God. I don't want to stand around and talk about your job or my job and then switch when the meeting starts. Never really understood how people can be like that. Probably happens everywhere but still... My grumblings about the church life took its toll on my then-wife. That coupled with the rest of our problems did us in. We fought A LOT, especially once in Ausin. It would start with me being upset about something or her being upset about something, and would end with her comparing me to one of her many past relationships. Being a highly intelligent person, she was, on the negative side, extremely manipulative and cruel. Not one to be out done, I argued back just the same. I couldn't stand the constant comparisons to other men, and it was driving me insane. She decided to separate from me in 2009 and live in her own place, AND live as a divorced woman. None of that was the LC's fault, but what I have gone on to see is some REAL Christian teachings on marriage. I sought fellowship with the elders here and to my recollection, not even ONCE did anyone tell me that my wife and I need to stop and read the Bible together. I was listening to a preacher talk about this kind of thing and said that he always asks couples, "do you pray together? do you read the Bible together? No? Well no wonder you're having problems!". That's real Bible based advice. The elders asked me about my own Bible reading but that's the extent of it, if memory serves. One of the elders, Cary Ard, was once at my place talking to me. The fellowship wasn't bad, it was good until he said one thing that blew me away. God is my witness on this--he told me that the Bible does not allow divorce but it does allow separation! The Bible actually says the complete opposite thing regarding separation. I couldn't believe it, he was actually trying to use the apostle Paul's teaching on a husband and wife separating from each other for a time to seek the Lord privately for MY situation. Completely insane and abuse of the Bible. For what reason he said this is beyond me, but damage done. It was at that point that I realized I could no longer talk to him about spiritual things. He's not a bad guy, to this day I'm not upset--he's the one who baptized me and always sounded on-point otherwise. I could just tell that he wanted to be elsewhere. It's like I could see that he would rather be talking to some college freshmen instead. Y'all know Austin is HUGE on that. I mean ok fine, that's his gift and focus, not "community saints" like me. Oh how I HATE that phrase, "community saint", BTW. I just don't understand how an ELDER could use the Bible like that. End of part 1

11-15-2013, 10:27 AM	#15
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,333	Re: Excommunicated! I don't mean to trivialize anything, because I know this is painful for you, Chris. But, trust me on this, there many churches in Austin where you will get a lot better care, understanding and shepherding than you got in the LC. Omigosh, what an embarrassment your experience would be for any halfway-serious church leader around the city! To the LC it's just business as usual. Trying to get shepherding when you are down-and-out in the LC is like trying to find a tuna in shark-infested waters. You might find one, but you'll both get eaten by something else.

11-15-2013, 06:27 PM	#19
Chris Fleming Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 45	Re: Excommunicated! So as we last left off, it was 2009, my then-wife started living with some other saints (and eventually got her own apartment) and I learned from an elder that the Bible allows for separation. She, to her credit, wanted to go to "Christian-based" marriage counseling, as even she knew that there would be no help found in LSM churches. Just as a side note regarding divorce, I don't remember which one it was but I once read a Witness Lee book where he said that he can testify that there is NO DIVORCE in the church life. Really had to laugh at that one even when I was in the LC, as all kinds of people that I knew there, including my then-wife were in fact divorced. Some of the first people that I met there were divorced. The counseling was O-K-A-Y, I mean, the guy was a real believer but it was entirely psychology-based with some Bible verses thrown in, like from 2 Corinthians talking about the God of all comfort who would comfort us and so forth. I was put off by him thinking that he knew me better than I knew myself after taking his personality test. The main thing his business taught were some communication skills like how to listen and apologize....which is good I suppose but once again Christianity as a whole was letting me down. I have to be fair, it wasn't just LSM. A slap upside my head and some direction to read and pray together would have been better. At the end of it however, it looked like we had a real break through--I heard her and understood what was hurting her and she heard me and understood what was hurting me. We reconnected and began the healing process. That didn't last long as some days later things were just bothering me, I was still negative towards her, a big part of me wanted to move on. Not that I would divorce her, I just didn't feel right. I was wrong to entertain those thoughts but I guess even that was for the best, since it was at that point that she informed me that she had been seeing someone, a brother in the LSM church, and said that if she wanted to continue to see him she would. Any ground gained in counseling was now completely destroyed. I don't know what the extent of their relationship was, but regardless, they were seeing each other, she still being married--that is just something you don't do. She would later tell me that women never cheat without a reason so it was actually my fault. I wanted to hurt the guy; he was someone I was close to. Extremely upset with her as well. Rather than following the Bible exactly I skipped over the previous steps and went right to the tell-it-to-the-church phase. At least I was smart enough to know that a felony on my record and prison time was nothing to be desired. So I told them. They didn't care. I'm serious. Since Cary Ard was still the only elder I really knew there, I tried telling him about it and he didn't want to talk about it. He may have said something to my ex but from what I understand it wasn't anything substantial. He more or less wanted to focus on the marriage, I guess...but once again my mind was blown. Church kid or not, famous father or not, that's not how you handle things. The LSM policy is hear no evil, speak no evil. I understand from this forum that they have a history of this. Haven't gone too deep into that but knowing this history put their actions into more of a context. Problem in the church? Just make it go away. Ignore it, ignore it, ignore it. Austin itself is mainly focused on attracting college freshmen to attend their meetings and eventually go to the training and then serving....where? back on the campus of course. I'm not against their training or their campus work, it's just that it became VERY clear to me that THAT is what Austin LC is all about and there isn't much of a place for you if you're not on board. They are looking for cookie-cutter kids who all pretty much act the same and follow the same "career" path in the LC as outlined above. I was stuck in that LC limbo of being too old now to matter--didn't go to the training, didn't have kids of my own to bring up in the career path, wasn't serving on campus (i wouldn't have been allowed either, as i didn't go to the training), marriage in shambles so I couldn't have a home meeting for college freshmen to attend, was that guy with the problems, and so forth. Was and forever permanently in that despised underclass of Community. Saint. End of part 2

11-23-2013, 09:20 PM	#30
Chris Fleming Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 45	Re: Excommunicated! So at this point I wasn't really attending meetings. I always found them boring and strange, especially with all the screaming. LOL pray-reading would make me crack up. Keep in mind, I'm not against this at all. It's just that it always sounded more to me like prayer-repeating rather than prayer-reading. When I first got to Austin there must have been a training on 1st John--people were walking around saying, "THAT WHICH....THAT WHICH....THAT WHICH!" I was like, what the hell... Anyway, I would go to a table meeting or "open" video training meeting once in a while and then be gone for like 6 months or more. I once asked one of the elders what home meetings there were, since I lost mine (the saints who sided with my ex and got involved in our business would be awkward to meet with). The elders said they would help me find a home meeting but never did. I never stopped reading the Bible of course. Also read LSM books like their Life Studies, which I think are good. After some time, I was invited to a home meeting which ended up being a great place, and a place that slowly nourished me back to life. I was reading and praying with others again. Learned how to sing with others as well. That might not be a problem for most but for me I had never been the singing type. Now I think its great and important. I will always be grateful to that family who took me in and showed me the best of the church life for a few years. End of part 3

11-12-2013, 04:57 PM	#1
Chris Fleming Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 45	Excommunicated! Hello everyone! I've known about this forum for some time, somethings I agree with, somethings not, but one thing I do know is that ALL who call on the Lord's name and love Him are saved and are rightfully called saints. Not just the spiritual snobs who believe they have a monopoly on that word. I've been sitting on this for a year--amazing how a year can go by--not in anger really but mainly just moving on and detoxing from the whole experience. I was excommunicated from the LSM church in Austin TX for the high crime of wanting to get remarried. My point of being on here is not a crusaded to get people to leave their church (some people who know me have approached ME to tell me that they are seriously thinking of leaving) however I do feel the need to work through this and tell it straight, bluntly and matter-of-factly for the record, because there is some serious things wrong in what was said to me. I think there is a lot of benefit to the LSM churches, yet there is a lot of things left to be desired, probably like most places...but most other places would at least admit that. I'm using my real name, as that is how I do things online, and also because if I am going to name names I think it's only fair if I'm using my own as well. This is not a criticism to anyone else, just what I'm doing. When I have a little more time I'll speak more about my whole experience there, but mainly what I have to say now is that I love the Lord, He is working in ALL of us who love Him and while I like the set up of the LSM churches, the Lord is doing mighty works in so many other people and places, most of whom have never even heard of LSM...and is going on in me and my life personally. So from the outset I'd like to say that while I am not against their church, their writings are a load of crap when they say it is not possible to leave their church and go on with the Lord. Thank you for listening. --Chris

11-26-2013, 09:41 AM	#31
Chris Fleming Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 45	Re: Excommunicated! It was at this time that I had a major spiritual awakening. This was real and LSM can never take that away from me. In prayer one night I was essentially crying out to the Lord, asking and even somewhat demanding that He come in and be life to me. And He did! It was amazing! The Lord did something, whatever He does and how He does it, to give me the grace, mercy and power to be able to let go of just SO MUCH anger and pain. I had the forgiving power to no longer be angry at the man who was going out with my wife, to no longer be angry at the saints who were encouraging my estranged wife to look for jobs in other cities, and to let go of many other things like that. Previously I thought I could forgive but after a time the same old feelings would come back. This time was for real and I know it is solid because this has remained to this day. Praise Him for His wonderful life, mercy and power! Meetings became enjoyable now. I was able to attend each week and look forward to doing so. I liked being with everyone now and had a growing hunger for the church life--it must have been that church life "honeymoon" that I had heard about but never had previously. I shared often in the meetings and wanted more. Still didn't entirely know how I was going to fit in there in terms of some kind of service, but I was sure that it would be manifested to me. Life was opening up to me; everything just looked brighter. My then-wife officially filed for divorce--one of the last things she said to me was that she wanted "the freedom to see other people". Now I'm not the smartest but I think we all know that when a person says something like that they usually have someone in mind. Don't know for sure, but I don't care either. That was enough for me to hear. Didn't want any more pain. I spoke to a different elder in Austin, Tym Seay. He was recommended to me as a dear brother, of course, and a good man who you could talk to. Previously I would see him around all of the time but never had the opportunity to speak to him. I had been keeping him updated with my marriage situation, including the finality of it. After some time had past, I told him that I wanted to go on in the church life, and God is my witness on this, I told him that whenever the Lord leads and allows I want to find a sister, have a family and just do whatever I am supposed to do there. I was not vague in anything at all. He was all smiles and Amen-ing. So all was well, or so I thought. In the course of more time, I met this cute girl in a home meeting, we began to talk A LOT...and I'm sure you all can figure out where this was heading. It was at that point that they wanted to talk to us... I was still married to my ex, in their eyes. And, all of a sudden Tym was completely amnesiac as to our former conversation regarding me wanting to go on and get (re)married at some point. The situation was clear in my eyes yet they wanted some kind of proof. Other than my ex getting remarried herself, I'm not sure what kind of proof they expected. I asked them somewhat jokingly, what do you want? Dirty sheets? Youtube clibs? Eventually her and I ended things with respect mutually--that was another grace and mercy from the Lord--but her words were clear. I personally did not want to find out who she was seeing or who she wanted the "freedom" to see. She's had a hard enough life, I guess, and I am happy to step out of the way and go on with mine. The choice was made for me anyway--I just had to realize that I needed to STOP killing myself and wake up to life. I asked the elders (at this point he brought Neal Wolfson to sit in with him) what he expected me to do if such acceptable "proof" never comes. Did they honestly expect me to remain single for the rest of my life? They didn't have any direct answers save for and I quote, "...it would be hard...". So they really did just want the problem to go away and for me to be that brother there sitting by himself in the meetings, getting creepier and creepier each year. There are guys like that in their church--dudes who have gotten divorced and you can tell that they are at the point that they would love to jump on almost any sister that crosses their line of vision. It's not normal to subject a man to that kind of life...and I definitely DO NOT have the gift to remain unmarried. Doing my own thing is cool for a while, to come and go as I please and care only for myself but I had been alone for years already. Speaking of that, the elders asked me how long I had been divorced for. It had been several months, maybe 5 or 6 months that I had been officially divorced. They made light of that, saying that it wasn't that long, to which I explained AGAIN how prior to the divorce we had been separated for 3 1/2 years. That made Neal laugh a lot and compare that length of time to the great tribulation. How my situation was a joke to them is beyond me. In any case, the situation was impossible for them, and their logic went full-retard. At one point, Tym said that they did not want me getting remarried because that would allow for everyone else to leave their wives because they were having difficulties. That kind of statement is totally insane. Firstly, I did not leave or file for divorce with my ex. That was all her. I'm just saying all these details about my previous marriage to give you the reader an idea as to just how crazy they got. They literally thought that marriages in their church are hanging on such a thread, according to their logic, that me, some nobody, will lead the entire group into divorce. Sure. So they had an ultimatum--break up with my honey and wait to "see what happens" or "there will be....some restriction...". End of part 4

12-14-2013, 09:45 AM	#36
Chris Fleming Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 45	Re: Excommunicated! In one of the last sit downs we had with the elders, Tym Seay began by telling me that he was reading the Bible earlier and came across a verse that reminded him of me. It was the part in Matthew 19:10 where the Lord is talking about marriage and the disciples respond with "it is better not to be married". And then he literally stopped with that. I mean, I had my girlfriend right there and everything. She's the innocent one caught up in all this. Here I thought I already communicated very clearly with the elders about my intentions to go on and be with someone when the time came, and Tym said "Amen". Now they talk like that in front of her with a word like that and many more. How do you think she felt? We were already very close and they were forcing us to choose between us and them, the whole group. So I said, "but what about the rest of that section?", and I read the rest which says that not everyone has the gift to remain unmarried so let only him who can accept it live that way. I was shocked because it happened AGAIN! In one of my posts above I talked about how another elder, Cary Ard, tried to manipulate the Bible into it saying what he wanted it to say about a wife separating from her husband, and here it happened AGAIN! They must really think I am stupid or that at least I don't read the Bible and rather just will accept anything they say about it. It was at that point that it dawned on me that they just want me, like I talked about earlier, to be permanently single. That way they can act like there's no divorce in the church life. Problems problems, just go away. See no evil. Tym accepted that it was good for me to point out the rest of that section and the full context of those verses. Thankx. I remember hearing a message from Big Daddy Kangas years ago when he talked about how in his days in the seminary he got to a point to where he said, "I do not trust these people with my soul!". I feel the same way now about the LC. They're not bad people at all just when it comes down to it, they will eat their own to preserve their outward appearances. I hope people reading this can see my heart that I'm not bitter and upset at them, just at what they did and how they used the Bible. You have to cut the word straight. I'm not perfect but I'm not making exception for sin. Maybe they were right in wanting some kind of absolute "proof" that my ex wife has moved on in every sense of the word, but I never felt any life and peace with that kind of directive. I tried to tell them and they were happy to see me go on but inwardly they just wanted me to forever wait and "see what happens" (yes that's what they said). That would be a life of slow suicide. No thankx. End of part 5

12-21-2013, 11:24 AM	#39
Chris Fleming Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 45	Re: Excommunicated! So in our last sit down the ultimatum as break up or "uh...there will be...uh...some restriction...". After a pregnant pause I took my cue to ask, "what do you mean by some restriction"? Their answer was that we will not be able to attend any table meetings, prayer meetings, home meetings, any other kind of meetings and are to have no contact with "the saints". Talk about some restriction! I said to Tym that that is complete excommunication! He said that the word excommunication isn't in the Bible (just like "community saint", right?) and they prefer to only use terms which are found there, so he said, "in this situation our decisions is to....uh....follow the Bible and...uh.....remove...". "Remove the evil one from your midst?!?!?", I asked. No response. So there you have it, I am not being excommunicated, just completely cast out from their church system and rather am being compared to the man in Corinthians who was having sex with his step-mom for being divorced and wanting to have a Godly marriage for once. Clearly I am the "evil one" for wanting to move on. There were some long moments of awkward silence between the four of us, which Neal Wolfson couldn't stand so he reverted to randomly blurting out "....AMEN!!!" "....YEAH!" "...UM HMM!!" as his is known for. I'm not kidding. It was fairly clear to Tym that this wasn't going in the direction he wanted it to go, as in, we weren't falling all over ourselves to just accept what he was saying, but he left it open to me that all I had to do was drop the girl who was then and still is the love of my life and I would be "brought back in". Tym AGAIN compared me to "the evil one" of the incestuous Corinthian by saying that when that man repented he was brought back in right away, so in like manner I will be allowed to come back if only I will submit to a life of misery and loneliness, but hey, I can sit in their buildings. At that point we all were at an impossible situation, them wanting to maintain the self styled purity of their group, not offend the big names that my ex is connected to and stay on their high horse and us wanting to get out of there. It was all about control. I realized this for certain while Neal was talking to us. He said some nice things but I could tell by intuition and his face that it really was just all about control. It was even a mystical moment--the look on his face shocked me as he was speaking. It's hard to put into words but it was the look of someone I have not met before. Tym decided that we should think it over and he will get in touch with me soon. We did think it over and considered them and their views. We discussed it very thoroughly and even considered separating. We quickly dropped that idea; it was just too ridiculous and also painful. Tym called me at work a couple days later to get an answer, to which I told him politely that what he was asking us to do was violent and painful, and we will no longer be meeting with them. To someone who is a part of a system who believes they have a monopoly on truth, it was shocking to him that we would choose to leave their group. There was a long silence on the phone. I tried to help the guy out and break the silence and tell him I don't know what else to say. He explained to me that "the saints" are off limits to me but I could contact the elders "should the situation change". Thanx, because like I've written about elsewhere, I am forbidden to talk to any other Christians now according to their complete abuse of the word "saint". ____________________ All of this has truly been the best thing for me. The lovely woman who I met has now become my wife and I have NEVER been happier. She is the most caring, supportive and loving person I have ever met. We actually pray together, have a heart for the Lord TOGETHER, read His Word together and want our lives to be for His glory! What more could I want? We have met with other NORMAL Christians and will eventually find where the Lord wants us to be. I feel so blessed and free from spiritual snobbery and divisiveness. I care about the people in the LSM churches and wish them the best. I do hope, however, that they actually seek the Lord HIMSELF and continue to do so if they are already. They way I feel about it is, brothers and sisters, the time is VERY short. Not setting dates at all but we are entering into some, how shall we say, very interesting times. Christians ought to STOP attacking each other and devouring their wounded and realize that the church is not a temple of self-styled purity but the house of God. I wish Christians have even 1/10 of the solidarity muslims have, and it pains me greatly to say that. I'm not talking about excusing sin, I'm talking about in my case, letting a person spiritually live rather than rot. In any case, the gospel needs to be preached! I realized in the LSM churches that there was nearly no way to be taught how to preach the gospel there--I had not attended their "training" so that whole realm was really off limits to me. I have actually heard that if you want to preach the gospel, you have to attend home meetings where "full time-ers" go and just be around them...at some point maybe they will invite you to go with them. This is complete nonsense because THE BIBLE shows us that ALL believers should be discipled and use the authority of Christ to preach and deliver people. And ALL people at that, not just college freshmen, as is the pattern there in Austin. Like I said, the times are short and we need to be focused on THE LORD. I truly wish that

12-23-2013, 07:26 PM	#45
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Excommunicated! Hi Chris, I left the LCs a few years back and you can read my testimony in the other thread "Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation" if you're interested. I came to know that the bible doesn't teach free grace theology: the belief that you are assured salvation after profession of belief in Christ Jesus. According to Wikipedia, the adherents of free grace theology in Christianity is a small subset: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Grace_theology "Its prominent present-day expressions are the Grace Evangelical Society, the Free Grace Alliance, the Plymouth Brethren, and the local churches. " So we should do our homework to see if the bible really teaches this. You can see the Repentance thread I mentioned earlier for arguments why Jesus and the writers of the NT simply didn't adhere to this doctrine. I agree most of everyone in the LCs have no idea what they're doing because they have strayed from God's word and I'm sorry for the hurt that was put on you. However I am afraid for your salvation if you do remarry assuming that the original marriage did not break up due to sexual immorality. But don't take my words for it-- Here's an article I'd like you to read from John Piper- a true man of God and widely known and respected Christian pastor and author. http://delightintruth.com/2013/04/22...-always-saved/ I've posted the text from this article below for others to read as well: “Once saved, always saved” has become an evangelical cliché which grossly misrepresents the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. It has unfortunately been used by immature Christians and perhaps even unsaved “Christians” as a license to sin. Here’s what John Piper has to say about the subject in his book Future Grace (via Delight in Truth friend Gabe Bogdan): “A few years ago I spoke to a high school student body on how to fight lust. One of my points was called, “Ponder the eternal danger of lust.” I quoted the words of Jesus–that it’s better to go to heaven with one eye than to hell with two–and said to the students that their eternal destiny was at stake in what they did with their eyes and with the thoughts of their imagination… After my message… one of the students… asked, “Are you saying then that a person can lose his salvation?” …This is exactly the same response I got a few years ago when I confronted a man about the adultery he was living in… I pled with him to return to his wife. Then I said, “You know, Jesus says that if you don’t fight this sin with the kind of seriousness that is willing to gouge out your own eye, you will go to hell”… As a professing Christian he looked at me in utter disbelief, as though he had never heard anything like this in his life, and said, “You mean you think a person can lose his salvation?” …So I have learned again and again from firsthand experience that there are many professing Christians who have a view of salvation that disconnects it from real life, and that nullifies the threats of the Bible, and puts the sinning person who claims to be a Christian beyond the reach of biblical warnings. I believe this view of the Christian life is comforting thousands who are on the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13)… The main concern of this book is to show that the battle against sin is a battle against unbelief. Or: the fight for purity is a fight for faith in future grace. The great error that I am trying to explode is the error that says, “Faith in God is one thing and the fight for holiness is another thing… The battle for obedience is optional because only faith is necessary for final salvation.” (John Piper, Future Grace pg. 330-331 and 333) It is a grave error to separate obedience to the Word from an initial conversion type event. Disobedience, lack of striving for holiness, and lack of perseverance in the faith may be indicative that the professing Christian is not saved.

12-23-2013, 09:24 PM	#50
Unregistered Too Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Excommunicated! Hi bearbear Thank you for the encouragement. I'm well on my way with the Lord. My reason for joining this forum is to assist in my understand of my friend who is very deep into the LC.

12-25-2013, 01:01 PM	#58
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,824	Re: Excommunicated! Merry Christmas to all! Please point out the posts to move and a suggested thread title and I'll get to it ASAP. __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

12-26-2013, 05:04 PM	#61
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 734	Re: Excommunicated! When the Local Church excommunicates you they do it to shame you and to "protect" their church from you. However when Paul tells the church to excommunicate a sinner, it's done out of love for the sake of their eternity. Even the act of excommunication is supposed to be done out of love. 1 Corinthians 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Whenever we feel shame, it's always from Satan. God will never bring shame upon us because he bore our shame on the cross. Romans 10:11 says “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” When the Holy Spirit convicts us his purpose is for us to turn away from our sin onto God. We can turn back to the Father without shame and he will always receive us, as the Father received the prodigal son after he repented without shame. So if a sinner doesn't repent within the church, the only merciful thing to do is to force them to leave the church because if they don't repent in church they might repent outside of it (Matthew 18). So even the act of excommunication is supposed to be done out of love. I'm sorry what happened to you Chris and I'm sorry for the shame that was brought on you. Because many in the LCs are blind to the meaning behind God's word, they often don't have the right idea of how to apply it. It's still my hope that you can find a way to return to your first wife however, or stay single for the sake of your salvation when the Lord comes back. I believe in the power of prayer and it's possible the Lord can heal your marriage through spiritual warfare by praying. I wish it could be easier, but God will judge us by his word and not by the standards that society has set. Societal standards change over time but God is the same yesterday today and forever. Heaven and earth will pass away but God's words never will. The world is passing away with its desires but he who does the will of God abides forever. Matthew 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

01-04-2014, 10:06 AM	#75
Chris Fleming Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 45	Re: Excommunicated! "How things have changed. In 1975/76, I learned to preach the gospel, to repent daily, to apply the Blood of Jesus daily, to edify the saints. IN THE LC for crying out loud!!" See this was the problem I ran right into--as I grew more in the Lord it's natural that I would want to preach the gospel. There is no place for you to do this in the LC, at least that's how it is in Austin. You must be a "full time-er" who has gone to their training who then goes on to "serve on the campus". Oh sure you'll hear from a "community saint" who brings a neighbor or co-worker of theirs to the Lord once in a while, and that's great, but there is strong focus, suffocating focus, on ONLY preaching to college kids. Freshmen only, even. They had a "reunion" where they explicitly talked about how only college freshmen are worthwhile. I don't want to be some guy who goes through my whole life and just brings a friend of mine to the Lord, saving the real work of the gospel to those elite who have been "trained". The Bible shows that EVERY BELIEVER should be a disciple, should be DYNAMIC, should be POWERFUL, should be like Philip in the book of Acts, doing MASSIVE works as lead by the Lord to do. Each person is going to have a different manifestation of this, but people are needed to win souls, people are needed to stand up against the strong delusion that is quickly enveloping this country, people are needed to stand against the tide of spiritual wickedness of these end times. ALL believers have this birthright and commission. My growth was clearly stunted being there, relegated to the label of "community saint". It was in that reunion that they even made fun of an elder many years ago going to old folks homes to preach the gospel. I'm not kidding. Wish I was. It's always, campus...campus...

05-10-2014, 10:18 PM	#77
Chris Fleming Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 45	Re: Excommunicated! LOL. An update of sorts. A brother I know who is still in the LSM organization (but sees through the BS and elitism) told me he went to a conference and asked an elder he must have known (but is in another city) about my situation. Without using my name (wouldn't know me anyway), he asked the elder if it would be right to encourage me to go on and meet with other Christians/churches considering how I am no longer welcome in LSM. The elder's answer was, "Yes!....No!....uh....it depends!" Can't make this stuff up. Really sums up their character--after being told that I am not allowed to speak to "the saints" (which I have discussed previously, their abuse of the word 'saint', twisting it to mean anyone in their insular group, as opposed to what it actually means, other Christians), they, at least this guy, doesn't want me to meet with anyone anywhere else. LOL elitist spiritual snobs! Having been out for a while now, I can say firmly that I have no desire to ever go back to that system. One thing that I'll speak on now that I have seen is that there is NO competition between various church groups. LSM would like to make you think that everyone else is just lost and fighting when really the various groups I've seen are just doing what they are supposed to be doing, loving and serving the Lord. It's so ironic, the only fighting and divisive ones are the LSM people, the people who claim only THEY are the ones doing it right.

12-15-2015, 11:54 AM	#84
Chris Fleming Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 45	Re: Excommunicated! Hello all! It's been a long time since I've been on here. It has helped me much to post what I have back then and I still stand by everything I've said. Just wanted to post on record here publicly that I have no grudge against LSM or anyone in their organization. Everything that the Lord does is right and I want to have no spirit of unforgiveness in my heart at all. I rarely even think about LSM anymore. Too busy going on with the Lord. On a rare occasion I run into someone from their organization and it's strange--they get REALLY uncomfortable and pretend they didn't see me. I smile. Did I change or did they? Jesus is Lord. Time is short. I have no time for games, sects and petty things. I wish them the very best and pray that the Lord bless them and their church group in every way.