Article: Beware of the writings of the Watchman

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This is a perfect example of how ready and willing LC members are to put into practice things that Nee/Lee taught. Of course, beating a child is one of the more extreme examples, but still, WN clearly endorsed it and described his own recommended method of corporal punishment.

As you put it, someone really has to be out of their mind to be willing to do something like this. Unfortunately, it really just boils down to people not being willing to give what they hear or read any amount of critical thought. The attitude is as simple as: "WN said it so it must be good advice." LC members have really gone off the deep end in this way.

Reminds me of that husband who refused to help his sick wife do dishes because he didn't want to do it "out of his natural man," due to Lee's aberrant teachings. Notice how Lee's "natural man" teachings reinforced laziness and superseded hundreds of other New Testament teachings about love.

Nee never had children of his own, so it's hard to believe he would recommend something so harsh for others, yet never had to practice it himself.

On second thought, knowing the system as I do, it's actually easy to believe Nee would teach that. Think about how Lee raised his own sons, and then covered for them, as they bedeviled the saints for decades.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Reminds me of that husband who refused to help his sick wife do dishes because he didn't want to do it "out of his natural man," due to Lee's aberrant teachings. Notice how Lee's "natural man" teachings reinforced laziness and superseded hundreds of other New Testament teachings about love.

This is exactly the twisted mess some of these kinds of teachings create. Why does it always seem like these teachings get used in a way resembling some kind of reverse psychology?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nee never had children of his own, so it's hard to believe he would recommend something so harsh for others, yet never had to practice it himself.

On second thought, knowing the system as I do, it's actually easy to believe Nee would teach that. Think about how Lee raised his own sons, and then covered for them, as they bedeviled the saints for decades.

As the article makes reference to, because so much of Nee's life is shrouded in mystery, he seems to come across to many (especially LCers) as being some type of spiritual guru.

The commonly held LC notion that he had some deep spiritual insight has probably precluded most from realizing these tidbits about his actual streghts and weaknesses. As someone who didn't have kids, he had no business telling others how to raise their kids, or even giving advice. I wonder what other subjects he presented himself as an 'expert' on?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I wonder what other subjects he presented himself as an 'expert' on?

Apparently pharmaceuticals, church business entrepreneurialism, church history, Greek and Hebrew scholarship, etc.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This is a perfect example of how ready and willing LC members are to put into practice things that Nee/Lee taught. Of course, beating a child is one of the more extreme examples, but still, WN clearly endorsed it and described his own recommended method of corporal punishment.

As you put it, someone really has to be out of their mind to be willing to do something like this. Unfortunately, it really just boils down to people not being willing to give what they hear or read any amount of critical thought. The attitude is as simple as: "WN said it so it must be good advice." LC members have really gone off the deep end in this way.

Although Watchman Nee did not have his own children he had been in many homes having tended to many broken and ruinness family relationships by the time of his writing. Paul, the apostle, also did not have children and was never even married yet he wrote to Timothy twice, his last 2 epistles, with instruction on how ones ought to behave as parents, as slaves, as slave-owners, and as elders - he was never any of these.

Paul, by this time at his age and maturity in life, both humanly and spiritually, spoke according to his view. Watchman at his age spoke according to his view and his level of maturity. Both cared for the future of the church and saw the need for discipline early, and in a spirit of love only.

Righteousness and peace was a goal within the family and for the church life sought by both Paul and by brother Nee for both present and future purpose, to the glory of God.

The latter's well-intentioned recommendation might work very well, or it might not; but compared to Moses' instruction for dealing with a rebellious child (Deuteronomy), it was a very mild suggestion.

I happen to be listening to tapes on Deuteronomy at the same time I have been in Paul's writing to Timothy; and now have read Nee's word - and have my reactions to them all.
(Note: Moses also was in his maturity, at 120 years old)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Although Watchman Nee did not have his own children he was in many homes tending to broken and ruinness family relationships by 1948. Paul, the apostle, also did not have children and was never even married yet he wrote to Timothy twice, his last 2 epistles, with instruction on how ones ought to behave as parents, as slaves, as slave-owners, and as elders - he was never any of these.

I agree with you, in principle, yet we should remember that Nee had just spent his last 6 years outside of the church, outside the ministry, and apart from shepherding families in their homes. Secondly, regardless of the maturity of the minister, we should still heed Paul's instruction to "test all things, hold fast to what is good," (I Thess 5.21) and "let each man prove his own work." (Gal 6.4)

Originally Posted by Indiana

Paul, by this time at his age and maturity in life, both humanly and spiritually, spoke according to his view. Watchman at his age spoke according to his view and his level of maturity. Both cared for the future of the church and saw the need for discipline early, in a spirit of love only.

Looking at Nee's instruction to beat the child, I cannot help but remember Paul's instruction to, "fathers, do not provoke your children to anger." I am a firm believer that parental discipline should always fit the "crime," should always be age and gender appropriate, and should be accompanied by much loving instruction.

I would consider Dr. James Dobson a far more respected minister and teacher in this area of parenting and discipline. Unfortunately, neither Nee not Lee was humble enough to solicit proper ministry from ones like Dobson, rather took every opportunity to bad-mouth the likes of them for their own personal gains, and sadly, much loss to the children of God.

Originally Posted by Indiana

Righteousness was a goal within the family that could then transfer into the church life, through children raised in the discipline and admonition of the Lord. "Godliness with contentment is great gain", both now and in the future saw both by Paul and Watchman Nee.

The latter's well-intentioned recommendation might work very well, or it might not; but compared to Moses' instruction, in a theocracy, for a rebellious child (Deuteronomy), it was a very mild suggestion.

Moses did command that the rebellious child be put to death. Had my father been able to apply this commandment, I would not be alive today.

What a warning to children! Hopefully it never happened! Mercy triumphs over judgment!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Although Watchman Nee did not have his own children he was in many homes tending to broken and ruinness family relationships by 1948. Paul, the apostle, also did not have children and was never even married yet he wrote to Timothy twice, his last 2 epistles, with instruction on how ones ought to behave as parents, as slaves, as slave-owners, and as elders - he was never any of these.

Paul, by this time at his age and maturity in life, both humanly and spiritually, spoke according to his view. Watchman at his age spoke according to his view and his level of maturity. Both cared for the future of the church and saw the need for discipline early, and in a spirit of love only.

You do have a point here, the fact that WN didn’t have kids is not an immediate disqualification from talking about raising them. I’m sure a lot of the advice he gave was based upon what he observed around him. Where I have a lot of hesitation, however, is in regards to the fruit of the advice on families that both WN and WL gave. Many LC families have really suffered. Families have been hurt, there are some at odds with each other. Clearly, there was a lack in this area of each of their ministries.

Originally Posted by Indiana

Righteousness and peace was a goal to gain within the family as a foundation for the church life, to the glory of God for both present and future purpose, sought by Paul, and also by brother Nee.

The latter's well-intentioned recommendation might work very well, or it might not; but compared to Moses' instruction for dealing with a rebellious child (Deuteronomy), it was a very mild suggestion.

I happen to be listening to tapes on Deuteronomy at the same time I have been in Paul's writing to Timothy; and now have read Nee's word - and have my reactions to them all.
(Note: Moses also was in his maturity, at 120 years old)

Concerning the case in Deuteronomy, I believe that the context of the punishment of death was that maybe certain rebelliousness had the ability to affect the small-knit communities of that time. The punishment itself involved bringing the son before the elders of the city: “then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city.”

Maybe what WN suggested was applicable in early 20th century China, but it’s certainly not applicable, nor legal today. Rebelliousness is a phase that most kids go through. It’s generally not a problem that stays around forever. I remember when I was a kid, I was threatened with the belt a few times, but it never happened. It kept me in line, but honestly, I still harbor resentment that such a punishment was ever viewed as an option. It’s kind of hard to imagine any kind of corporal punishment being done out of love.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Although Watchman Nee did not have his own children he was in many homes tending to broken and ruinness family relationships by 1948. Paul, the apostle, also did not have children and was never even married yet he wrote to Timothy twice, his last 2 epistles, with instruction on how ones ought to behave as parents, as slaves, as slave-owners, and as elders - he was never any of these.

Paul, by this time at his age and maturity in life, both humanly and spiritually, spoke according to his view. Watchman at his age spoke according to his view and his level of maturity. Both cared for the future of the church and saw the need for discipline early, and in a spirit of love only.

Righteousness and peace was a goal to gain within the family as a foundation for the church life, to the glory of God for both present and future purpose, sought by Paul, and also by brother Nee.

The latter's well-intentioned recommendation might work very well, or it might not; but compared to Moses' instruction for dealing with a rebellious child (Deuteronomy), it was a very mild suggestion.

I happen to be listening to tapes on Deuteronomy at the same time I have been in Paul's writing to Timothy; and now have read Nee's word - and have my reactions to them all.
(Note: Moses also was in his maturity, at 120 years old)

Dear brother,

Those who equate WN or WL with Paul are deceived. Those who advance the teaching of a man over that of the bible are deceivers.