"God in life and nature but not in the Godhead"

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

'You may feel elevated above the rest of the world, but there's no relationship what's happening at ground level.'
Any relationship above the elevation? Don't forget, God is in heaven.

I see what you're saying, but my post was in reference to the lateral relationship among many members of the Body of Christ. I have seen to many times in the local churches distain for fellow members of the Body who aren't receiving the same ministry publication (aka "high peaks") they are.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

I see what you're saying, but my post was in reference to the lateral relationship among many members of the Body of Christ. I have seen to many times in the local churches distain for fellow members of the Body who aren't receiving the same ministry publication (aka "high peaks") they are.

The way I see it, the issue can be characterized as the old saying that you have to be able to walk before you can run. The so-called high-peak, by it's very definition, represents something esoteric and out of reach. That's not to say that what WL called the "high-peak" had any semblance to God's ultimate purpose for us, but if there were any amount of truth to it, then you would expect that LCers should be able to demonstrate things like basic Christian virtues instead of mock them.

[Indiana]

As some of you know I respect the teachings of brother Lee, but not in the way of the blending brothers, who tout him as they put the words of his ministry before the saints, and the Christian public. Elevating him and his ministry led to the building up of the ministry churches of Witness Lee, rather than, in inclusive love, building up the Body of Christ.

As brother Lee shared, "in the last few years, we have appreciated the Lord's showing us the high peak of the divine revelation. My concern is that although we may talk about the truths of the high peak, love is absent among us. If this is the case, we are puffed up, not built up. The Body builds up itself in love” (A Word of Love, 1996)

But it is not love that prevails in the Local Churches; rather, the thing brother Lee feared has prevailed, having grown and become more manifest in an atmosphere of high teachings and an attitude of being "above the rest". We will hear from a former elder in a moment who explains.

He also said, "according to my observance throughout the years, most of the co-workers have a human spirit of "power" but not love. We need a spirit of love to conquer the degradation of today's church…this is what the recovery needs". "Only love prevails", he said, and "love is the most excellent way" - it is the way to be an elder or a co-worker, and the way to contact the saints. He proclaimed that it is the way to do everything and to be anything in the church life.

Yet, in any honest analysis of "local church" history, love did not prevail even with him and has not prevailed with the blending brothers. The record is actually appalling and not surprising then to say that a people could be so rich in good teaching, yet be poor in the experience of Christ.


A former elder speaks to a core problem.


Hi Steve

Regarding Bill's [Bill Mallon] letter to W.Lee. A tragic story. What kept going through my mind was W. Lee's word of fellowship (I was there), You brothers have never learned how to fellowship (with me). To understand this whole mess, you have to try and understand the Chinese mentality, their cultural background, ie, the way they think. And don't tell me that we are in Christ, the new man, and culture has nothing to do with it. Well I'm afraid in reality, it has everything to do with most of the frustration you are dealing with.

I remember many times listening to Bro. Lee say never touch the Chinese mentality. I never quite understood what he meant. In secular language, the word inscrutable is used to describe the Chinese. To me this means, you can never pin them down or get them to admit error. You can never figure them out, and they seem sooo humble.

If you have been following the negotiations with the US and China over the downed plane, you will get a clue about them; wanting the US to apologize for their errors. Against all truth, facts, reasonableness, logic, whatever... they want us to kowtow, bend our knee, save their face, their honor, etc. etc. It is crazy!! And yet to get our men and women back we had to say some kind of political ....We're very sorry.... to make a deal.

Now transfer all this and more to the way they dealt with Bill and others and then you will know why you will go crazy trying to bring them to some kind of accountability.

When we attended the memorial service for W. L., we were amazed at the pomp, the exaltation. It was like attending a funeral for a head of state, or an emperor, or a king, Not a humble servant of the Lord!! Did Jesus have such a regal ending? Did any of the Apostles? No, all died just like their master and Lord. When we brought this up [with others], they said it was cultural and his family's wishes.

When I was reading Bill's accusations of the way the office and Phillip handled things in the S.E., I was shocked at his frankness. I said to myself, you never, never talk to Bro. Lee like that, in that tone. I surmised that Bill was thinking that surely B. Lee was not aware of all these under handed dealings and if he only knew he would take steps to clear everything up and possibly restore his standing in the S.E. NOT SO. It doesn't work that way in the Chinese culture. The one at the top is Lord. You do not question, or criticize, never, ever!! or you are through, finished. All those elders mentioned by W.L. became a threat to his controlling and they had to be subdued or removed. I think you had a little taste of this recently with the brothers in ....

The Texas brothers learned this early on and became the inner circle around Bro. Lee to defend him and explain how things work to the rest of the elders. You mentioned Ray Graver. Have you had any dealings with Ray? Do you know him? I would consider him the hardest of all the Texas bros. to touch. He has been loyal to the death from day one. He has been loyal without question to Bro. Lee and LSM for thirty-five years. What makes you think he is going to change now? Maybe you know something I don't.

Their concept of the kingdom is.....Me King....you dumb!....And this attitude is passed down the rank and file. The smallest elder acts the same way. Those who had a mind of their own have left. Those who stayed have given up their own integrity and surrendered their person to Bro. Lee and the system. This system has permeated the LC leadership. Can you change it? Can the Lord change it? Of course He will change it in HIS TIME. Judgment must first begin at the House of the Lord.

I understand about blowing the trumpet and pushing buttons; but are their ears open? Jesus said to each church in Rev.....he that has an ear let him hear! Ephesus did not repent, did not hear and lost their lampstand. Did any of the churches hear? The Catholic Ch. is still here today. Sardis is still
lukewarm, and the Lord is still on the outside of Laodicea knocking to stopped up ears! Only Philadelphia heard the Lord's word and let the Lord in.

My friendly and brotherly suggestion to you. Seek out the wounded, the oppressed, the downcast, the discouraged in your area. There must be hundreds of castaways, lost sheep needing a shepherd. Jesus left the ninety-nine and went out seeking the lost sheep. He did not convert too many
Pharisees! They had no heart nor ear to listen to him!

You have a soft shepherd's heart. Bro. Steve. I assure you these bleeding sheep will have an ear to hear you and respond to your care. Perhaps you and your wife could be a team ....

The verse in John 10:9...and will go in and go out and find pasture...has
been our experience. The Lord led us in and the Lord led us out...into the
pasture... where the Chief Shepherd of the flock is taking care of so many
who have been rejected.

Please read Ezk. 34 and Jeremiah 23:1-4, Isa. 35:3-7, 40:11, 42:1-4,
58:6-12.....for reference.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Indiana

As some of you know I greatly respect the teachings of brother Lee, and also of the blending brothers whose aim is to put the words of Lee's ministry before the saints, and seeking ones.

What I don't respect is their elevation above “the rest” when they should be the servants of all. Brother Lee shared this: "In the last few years, we have appreciated the Lord's showing us the high peak of the divine revelation. My concern is that although we may talk about the truths of the high peak, love is absent among us. If this is the case, we are puffed up, not built up. The Body builds up itself in love” (A Word of Love, 1996)

He also said, "according to my observance throughout the years, most of the co-workers have a human spirit of "power" but not love. We need a spirit of love to conquer the degradation of today's church…this is what the recovery needs". "Only love prevails", he said, and "love is the most excellent way" - "it is the way to be an elder or a co-worker, and the way to handle the saints." He proclaimed that it is the way to do everything and to be anything in the church life.

But it is not love that prevails in the Local Churches; rather the thing brother Lee feared is what prevails, having grown further and become even more manifest today in an elevated atmosphere created in part by high peak teaching and an attitude of being "above the rest".

Frankly speaking, I have a hard time viewing the "high peak" as anything but dross. In terms of the certain high-peak teachings, I find it to be highly questionable. But that aside, I agree that it was a tragedy for WL to seek something "higher" when on a the ground level, they were struggling with some of the more basic things like love.

It seems that virtually across the board, the fruit of WL's high peak is that many have fallen prey to pride. The "high peak" has elevated some LCers above other members who just want to care for basic needs, and it has even further separated those in the LC from other Christians, reinforcing the notion that they have so much more than everyone else.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Frankly speaking, I have a hard time viewing the "high peak" as anything but dross. In terms of the certain high-peak teachings, I find it to be highly questionable. But that aside, I agree that it was a tragedy for WL to seek something "higher" when on a the ground level, they were struggling with some of the more basic things like love.

It seems that virtually across the board, the fruit of WL's high peak is that many have fallen prey to pride. The "high peak" has elevated some LCers above other members who just want to care for basic needs, and it has even further separated those in the LC from other Christians, reinforcing the notion that they have so much more than everyone else.

The "high peak" teachings were thrust upon us following Philip's molesting sisters behind closed doors and maltreating leading brothers around the globe, then shepherding brothers like Ingalls crying out for justice, and finally Witness Lee suppressing and covering up the mess by slandering those who spoke their conscience.

Now does anyone really think that the holy and righteous Head of the body would wait almost 2,000 years until after these unholy and unrighteous events took place in order to "release" these "high peak" teachings?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now does anyone really think that the holy and righteous Head of the body would wait almost 2,000 years until after these unholy and unrighteous events took place in order to "release" these "high peak" teachings?

This is a very good point, it is helpful to consider the context of the situation in the LC before WL released his "high peak". There is something very addicting about feeling that you've "seen it all". Not more than a few years ago, I could have easily summarized the purpose of my existence on this earth using LC slogans, particularly something "high peak" related.

More than anything else, the way WL lived and the choices that he made are what ultimately determine the value of his ministry, not how "good" his teachings were. As Indiana has pointed out, where was love in the equation? WL even made the admonition that there needed to be a spirit of love. I can't say as to whether WL was being genuine in this admonition or not, but the fact that so much of the supposed "good" in WL's ministry failed to materialize is indication that there was something terribly wrong.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

More than anything else, the way WL lived and the choices that he made are what ultimately determine the value of his ministry, not how "good" his teachings were. As Indiana has pointed out, where was love in the equation? WL even made the admonition that there needed to be a spirit of love. I can't say as to whether WL was being genuine in this admonition or not, but the fact that so much of the supposed "good" in WL's ministry failed to materialize is indication that there was something terribly wrong.

The irony is simply incredible. After decades of publicly shaming his coworkers, suing all those who dared to protest his extreme teachings, and slaming all those who dared to voice their concerns, Witness Lee is going to preach about brotherly love?

I guess "god in life and nature" does not include "god in love."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Frankly speaking, I have a hard time viewing the "high peak" as anything but dross. In terms of the certain high-peak teachings, I find it to be highly questionable. But that aside, I agree that it was a tragedy for WL to seek something "higher" when on a the ground level, they were struggling with some of the more basic things like love.

It seems that virtually across the board, the fruit of WL's high peak is that many have fallen prey to pride. The "high peak" has elevated some LCers above other members who just want to care for basic needs, and it has even further separated those in the LC from other Christians, reinforcing the notion that they have so much more than everyone else.

High peak teachings can be easily summed up with 1 Corinthians 13:1

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

High peaks teachings are a clanging cymbal when there is no love.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Witness Lee

"...according to my observance throughout the years, most of the co-workers have a human spirit of "power" but not love. We need a spirit of love to conquer the degradation of today's church…this is what the recovery needs".

I wonder what today's blendeds think of this assessment, that they only have a human spirit of power, not of love? Years later, they made a big deal about how WL warned them of TC's independent ways; did anyone heed this warning about them, as well?

And as Ohio noted, this assessment fits WL to a 't'. He also was all about human power. Look where he ended up, and how he got there, and how he kept himself there.

(Of course, we all need this warning, as well. How much love do I display? Very little. Mostly self-interest. So I'm not immune, either).

Originally Posted by a former elder

"... in the Chinese culture... the one at the top is Lord. You do not question, or criticize, never, ever!! or you are through, finished..."

The problem with culture is that we don't see our own. It's like going to a fish and asking them if they feel wet. They'd reply, "Whatever do you mean?" They've been swimming in water all their life, and don't know anything else. WN's culture became the lens, or the balancing-scale, which he used to determine what was 'normal' in the church life. Of course the Western model looked abnormal to him, and to his countrymen, and arguably it was in fact distorted when compared to the NT text. But look at the alternative that he and WL proposed: also abnormal to the extreme.

Again, I ask, where's the opportunity for "much discussion" seen in the Acts 15 gathering in Jerusalem? (see v 7). The idea of give-and-take is completely alien to this culture, from what I see. Where's any semblance of mutuality? Where's the "one another" in Paul's "receive one another" and "confess your sins to one another"? What happens to the word "fellowship" in this culturally-dominated atmosphere? In actuality, it becomes a top-down, don't-ask-any-questions flow of directives, couched in spiritual jargon - "We all have to be one", etc. In the more clinical phraseology notating the EL and Shouter cults: they're marked by "close operational control"; i.e. power. Human power and human control.

And I remember what initially caught my interest: the word "reality." We (or, WL) translated the NT "truthfulness" as "reality". Here, I thought, was the end of forms and rituals - here was reality itself, in a normal local church life. Instead, it was simply human activity, draped in spirituality. It seemed new and different, and would finally realize God's will for humanity here on earth. But its differences were superficial - we'd merely traded one human culture for another. Bottom line was, it was just people being people. WL can have the last word, here: "It is a spirit of human power, not a spirit of love." Amen to that, brother. Amen.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

I wonder what today's blendeds think of this assessment, that they only have a human spirit of power, not of love?

I will give the blendeds this much. They do love those who love the ministry Living Stream publishes and at the minimum they love those who agree with them.
Take John Ingalls for example living in Anaheim, I don't think the blendeds exhibited much love when they learned their FTTA trainees knocked on John's residence.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

I will give the blendeds this much. They do love those who love the ministry Living Stream publishes and at the minimum they love those who agree with them.
Take John Ingalls for example living in Anaheim, I don't think the blendeds exhibited much love when they learned their FTTA trainees knocked on John's residence.

I think that many members just see the "love" that happens at the surface. Members can go anywhere in the world and receive hospitality with fellow members. It is indeed somewhat of a unique experience. The problem is just that they don't understand how ousted members are treated.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Indiana

As some of you know I respect the teachings of brother Lee, but not in the way of the blending brothers... elevating him and his ministry led to the building up of the ministry churches of Witness Lee, rather than, in inclusive love, building up the Body of Christ.

As brother Lee shared, "in the last few years, we have appreciated the Lord's showing us the high peak of the divine revelation. My concern is that although we may talk about the truths of the high peak, love is absent among us. If this is the case, we are puffed up, not built up. The Body builds up itself in love” (A Word of Love, 1996)

But it is not love that prevails in the Local Churches; rather, the thing brother Lee feared has prevailed, having grown and become more manifest in an atmosphere of high teachings and an attitude of being "above the rest"..

Here's a comment posted on Jane Anderson's The Thread of Gold website:

Dear Jane,

Attached is a copy of the outline of BP’s sharing. He was on II C 2. After saying that natural affection will become rottenness in the church he gave this testimony about you and your book. It is an exact copy from the tape:

"I was looking at a book the other day and in this book this sister gives her life’s story. Well, she was a good sister at one time. Then eventually she was defeated by the enemy because of her natural affection toward other sisters and she lost everything. Brothers, in the church life we don’t have any natural affection—we don’t have friends; not friends naturally, but everything must be in the Spirit."[emphasis added]

Someone whom I told about this comment wrote me the following:

Note BP said, “…in the church life we don’t have any natural affection”? In saying this, he puts himself and others in the same category as those Paul mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:1-5:

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Witness Lee summed it well: "My concern is... that love is absent from among us."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Here's a comment posted on Jane Anderson's The Thread of Gold website:

Dear Jane,

Attached is a copy of the outline of BP’s sharing. He was on II C 2. After saying that natural affection will become rottenness in the church he gave this testimony about you and your book. It is an exact copy from the tape:

"I was looking at a book the other day and in this book this sister gives her life’s story. Well, she was a good sister at one time. Then eventually she was defeated by the enemy because of her natural affection toward other sisters and she lost everything. Brothers, in the church life we don’t have any natural affection—we don’t have friends; not friends naturally, but everything must be in the Spirit."[emphasis added]

Someone whom I told about this comment wrote me the following:

Note BP said, “…in the church life we don’t have any natural affection”? In saying this, he puts himself and others in the same category as those Paul mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:1-5:

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Witness Lee summed it well: "My concern is... that love is absent from among us."

To me this is just one of the rotten side-effects of placing Lee and his ministry above Jesus and His word.

Reading the online cheerleaders for LSM is like watching all the happy people on the non-stop pharmaceutical commercials that plague the airwaves, all the while listening to the sped up audio caveats of "depression, heart attack, internal bleeding, strokes, yada, yada."

Definition of Insanity: Doing everything the Lee tells you to do, but never assigning blame to him when it all goes south.