God's economy vs Deputy authority

TLFisher · 10-12-2015, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

Then later on in the book there is his description regarding Lee's absolute authority in regards to even the small things like arranging furniture and hanging pictures. Does that present a view of "imperfect Lee" or "always-right deputy-authority Lee"?

Just as I would tend to take a carpenter as an authority in remodeling work, it could be Lee had a hidden skill as an interior designer. If that's the case, I would say Lee was an authority in furniture arrangement and hanging pictures.

Freedom · 10-12-2015, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Just as I would tend to take a carpenter as an authority in remodeling work, it could be Lee had a hidden skill as an interior designer. If that's the case, I would say Lee was an authority in furniture arrangement and hanging pictures.

If Lee's apprentices weren't allowed even the freedom to hang a picture on their own, it is indicative of a extremely high level of control. As a side note, it seems that Lee was thought to be an expert on every matter including interior decorating and running businesses. It's no wonder mottos came about such as: "We don’t even need to think; we just do what we are told." In this kind of setting, how could Lee have been viewed as anything less than perfect? In Lin's own words "we always found that his way was just right." No matter what any LCers admit about Lee making mistakes, that is not how he is really viewed. He is viewed on the level of a deity, an infallible god-man.

TLFisher · 10-12-2015, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

In Lin's own words "we always found that his way was just right." No matter what any LCers admit about Lee making mistakes, that is not how he is really viewed. He is viewed on the level of a deity, an infallible god-man.

That sums up until 2000, how Lee was generally viewed by co-workers, elders, and deacons.
I do not know if it has eve happened, but something I have considered what if you're a skilled carpenter, electrician, etc working on a LSM project and one of the so-called deputy authorities is telling you how to do perform your skill. The so-called deputy authorities' way is considered right even if it is folly.

Freedom · 10-12-2015, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

That sums up until 2000, how Lee was generally viewed by co-workers, elders, and deacons.
I do not know if it has eve happened, but something I have considered what if you're a skilled carpenter, electrician, etc working on a LSM project and one of the so-called deputy authorities is telling you how to do perform your skill. The so-called deputy authorities' way is considered right even if it is folly.

I participated in a number of LC "services" over the years, and I frequently noticed the tendency among leaders to micromanage. Simple tasks always seemed to become complicated. I remember this one time, I was either dusting or wiping off counters, and come to find out, I was doing it all wrong.

Opps, my bad. Needless to say, the only thing that was accomplished is that I felt resentful towards the person who wanted to make it obvious that I was doing something simple completely wrong. The sad part is, anyone who tries to stand their ground might be accused of not being able to "take the cross". LC leaders think their nitpicking is all with the goal to "perfect".

As time when on, I became less inclined to participate in any services for that reason. No one wants to be micromanaged, and whether anyone realizes it or not, many LCers do react to being micromanaged. Usually that reaction comes by way of disappearing, or choosing not to participate in certain activities. LC leaders always wonder why every one has become so "passive" with participating in such services. The reasons are right in front of them. Leaders, however, follow the example of a man named Witness Lee, who thought his way was always the best. It doesn't matter what skill or capabilities anyone had, he knew better. So-called natural abilities meant nothing. Leaders follow in his footsteps. Maybe it's because they don't want to be eclipsed by someone who can actually do something better than they can.

TLFisher · 10-12-2015, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

Maybe it's because they don't want to be eclipsed by someone who can actually do something better than they can.

I think you just touched on a plausible reason why current elders don't want to reconcile with former elders. Petty jealousy and envying.

OBW · 10-13-2015, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

If Lee's apprentices weren't allowed even the freedom to hang a picture on their own, it is indicative of a extremely high level of control.

I guess he was the originator of Feng Lee . . . or is it Lee Shui. Either way, it's all about Lee.

Ohio · 10-13-2015, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

I guess he was the originator of Feng Lee . . . or is it Lee Shui. Either way, it's all about Lee.

Doesn't everybody want to have the incredible power to walk into an almost finished building and say, "move that elevator over here," and then watch all of his minions bow down in awe, thinking that God had just spoken to them, as they proceed to violate building codes to fulfill his whims.

Freedom · 10-13-2015, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Doesn't everybody want to have the incredible power to walk into an almost finished building and say, "move that elevator over here," and then watch all of his minions bow down in awe, thinking that God had just spoken to them, as they proceed to violate building codes to fulfill his whims.

I've never liked the Ball Rd building much. There's so many rooms, so many secluded areas. But that's how Philip Lee wanted things, as we know. At any rate, that building is an eclectic mess with no real master plan. The "wise master builder" must have been out sick when the construction was taking place.

TLFisher · 10-13-2015, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

I've never liked the Ball Rd building much. There's so many rooms, so many secluded areas. But that's how Philip Lee wanted things, as we know. At any rate, that building is an eclectic mess with no real master plan. The "wise master builder" must have been out sick when the construction was taking place.

In the late 70's when I was a child there, the lower area was used for Children's meetings and subsequent class time by gender and grade.

Freedom · 10-13-2015, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

I guess he was the originator of Feng Lee . . . or is it Lee Shui. Either way, it's all about Lee.

If only it was evident to members how ridiculous it all is.

A few years ago, I heard brothers begin talking about need to revise the children's work. Apparently the brothers (led by Tom Goetz) had been reading some of Lee's unpublished ministry and "discovered" that they were doing the work all wrong. So starting a few years ago, there was a push to revise things - all because Lee, the master of raising kids (as is evidenced by his 2 sons), knew the best way.

OBW · 10-13-2015, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

. . . - all because Lee, the master of raising kids (as is evidenced by his 2 sons), knew the best way.

Seems that Lee might not qualify under Paul's guidelines for elder. Do you think Paul would give it all a pass since he is not an elder, but merely MOTA?

Freedom · 10-13-2015, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Seems that Lee might not qualify under Paul's guidelines for elder. Do you think Paul would give it all a pass since he is not an elder, but merely MOTA?

It wouldn't surprise at all if Lee felt "exempt" from certain qualifications because he wasn't an elder. But functionally, he was an "elder" of sorts, because he basically had the final say in any matter, in any church.

TLFisher · 10-13-2015, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Seems that Lee might not qualify under Paul's guidelines for elder. Do you think Paul would give it all a pass since he is not an elder, but merely MOTA?

Same can be said for many current LC elders not being scripturally qualified to be elders. Fortunate for them their qualifications is based on loyalty to a system and not on scripture.
Speaking of MOTA, there is a movie being released in the US last weekend of this month based on the life of Felix Manalo. (The Philippine MOTA)

aron · 10-13-2015, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Speaking of MOTA, there is a movie being released in the US last weekend of this month based on the life of Felix Manalo. (The Philippine MOTA)

From Wikipedia:

"Because there were no precursors to the registered church, external sources and critics of the INC refer to him as its founder.[3] The official doctrine of the Iglesia ni Cristo is that Felix Y. Manalo is the last messenger of God, sent to reestablish the first church founded by Jesus Christ, which the INC claims to have fallen into apostasy following the death of the Apostles.[4]"

Sound familiar: "the last messenger of God"?