"Early Nee" vs. "Later Nee"

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Related to "oneness with the ministry," consider how many precious brothers became "man-pleasers" through this errant form of distorted oneness.

Ohio, If we say we are for "oneness of the spirit" or "oneness of the faith", then oneness with a particular ministry is insignificant and irrelative. This is since oneness of the spirit or oneness of the faith is not limited to any particular ministry.
It is beyond rationale how brothers and sisters are "branded" because they have the width and the depth to recieve more than one earthly ministry. When you break it down, don't all these earthly ministries come from one heavenly ministry?

Terry

[Indiana]

I find this thread most valuable and enlightening, to say the least, after having read now through each post.

I will now have an added dimension in my understanding due to the writing efforts of many, especially two brothers who have been spearheading this thread. KTS and Ohio, perhaps I have helped you in the past, but now you have helped me. I refer to major helps in our concepts related to things Witness Lee, Watchman Nee, the local churches and the work.

Now brother Hope is here to help the focus become clearer on mistakes made concerning the church and the work. - This is a significant time. It is a time of transition.

I will share only what word has come to me toward the end of my reading. It is related to the following word by Don Rutledge:

-Just as critical is the concept of “Oneness.” The scriptural oneness is the “oneness of the Spirit” and “the oneness of the Faith,” and of course the reality of the “One Body of Christ.” Never are we urged to always join in oneness with a spiritual enterprise or a burden of a servant of the Lord. Rather, regarding the practice to preserve the “oneness of the Body” please see 1 Cor 12:23-25, "and those members of the body, which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our unseemly members come to have more abundant seemliness, whereas our seemly members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another."

Please note that any preferential care is a division in the body. If those who “Handed over” are given more preference, then there is the practice of dividing the body of Christ, a most serious matter. In fact, to preserve the oneness of the Body we must give more abundant honor to the weaker ones. In other words, WN should have urged his co-workers to shower love and care on those who had not “handed over” their possessions. –

There was a day when it would have taken something substantial for me to question Witness Lee. But that day came. And, now I must question also Watchman Nee.

Division in the Body is the issue here.

In the 1986 Pledge of the Elders to follow Witness Lee as the commander-in-chief, included in that Pledge was the taking care of saints including the backslidden ones. Refer to www.twoturmoils.com/pledge.pdf. The Pledge was a reflection of Lee’s own words and exhortations, which Ray Graver and Benson Phillips responded to in their composing of the “pledge” (or Letter of Agreement) to follow brother Lee and his leadership.

But here is how Witness Lee himself responded to a backsliding one. This is a representative example of how many people were treated in the churches who did not fall in line with the new way “flow”. www.twoturmoils.com/PaperintheWind.pdf

www.twoturmoils.com/dissenters.pdf

The Lord is surely leading us, step by step.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Indiana

...But here is how Witness Lee himself responded to a backsliding one. This is a representative example of how many people were treated in the churches who did not fall in line with the new way “flow”. www.twoturmoils.com/PaperintheWind.pdf www.twoturmoils.com/dissenters.pdf

Dear Indiana and other Posters,

I had never read the two short entries Indiana referred to. They are devastating. The pledge was bad enough but the attitude toward the dear believers, oh my. The verses used to justify the terrible fellowship contained in the publication are so upside down. Those who expressed concerns in the late 80s were the ones concerned about those causing dissensions and hindrances which were contrary to the teaching which we had learned. Eventually many of the original brothers and sisters had to turn away from them. How ironic that it was John Ingall and John So and many others who were branded.

The Greek word in Romans 16:17 for dissensions or divisions is a special word that means a division within the larger whole. It is to form a special group aka to be faithful to the Lord is not enough but you must also be faithful to the Lord’s Recovery as WL declares in the publication. Thus you have Romans 16:17. Within the circle of those who are faithful to the Lord is a smaller circle, “those who are faithful to the Lord’s Recovery.” When the entire experience of the late 80’s was unfolding brother after brother had a strong anointing to stop all contact with the LSM and WL. In 1989, I was visiting the brethren in Switzerland. One morning about 15 brothers were gathered together. The Lord’s presence was so strong you could almost cut it with a knife. Suddenly as we were praying and ministering to the Lord and fellowshipping the word came that we should just drop the efforts to work through things with LSM and WL and move on. I never attempted to contact them again. At the time, I was not thinking about Romans 16:17 but it is so clear that it applied. It was a bull's-eye.

I also consider the visits and letters WL received from so many “concerned brothers” were in the mode of a warning as mentioned in Titus 3:10. Unfortunately WL insisted on continuing his activity and the activity of the LSM office to create division and factions and eventually produced publications such as “Fermentation” and this one I have just discovered “The Ministry of the New Testament and the Teaching and Fellowship of the Apostle.” It is all very shameful and such a pity.

Rom 16:17-18, Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
Titus 3:10: Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
May the Lord have mercy on us all.

Hope, Don Rutledge
A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple.

[UntoHim]

www.twoturmoils.com/dissenters.pdf

Dissenting Ones

Here is the way “dissenters” are handled in the recovery. This way of dealing with dissenting ones is applied still today even to someone like me having legitimate concerns fifteen years after the turmoil.

“To avoid further damage by the present turmoil, we need to practice a strict quarantine over this contagious disease. Whenever any of the dissenting ones attempts to contact you, no matter in what way and in what polite or ”spiritual" manner", you should keep the apostles’ teaching in Romans 16:17 and Titus 3:10 to turn away from him and reject him. Do not try to exhort or argue with such people or to find out what and how they really are. If you say anything to them, you will “swallow their bait” and they will “hook” you. You are a gentleman, a sincere, honest Christian, and a humble follower of the Lord, but they are under the deceiving of the devil and unavoidably bear some of his poison. It is impossible to talk or argue with them without being contaminated by their poison. Instead of spending the time to meet with this kind of dissenting ones, we had better save our time to pray and get into the Word so that we may have some riches of Christ to minister to the saints.

To serve the Lord, to be one of the co-workers, the first requirement is faithfulness not only to the Lord but also to His recovery. We must regard the Lord’s recovery and not consider it anyone’s personal work. Merely to be faithful to the Lord is not adequate. We must also be faithful to the Lord’s recovery. To show our faithfulness to the recovery, we must consider ourselves married to the recovery. We all need to get ourselves married to the Lord’s recovery. May the lord have The Lord have mercy on us all."
(From The Ministry of the New Testament and the Teaching and Fellowship of the Apostle, pp. 32-33.)1

[YP0534]

“To avoid further damage by the present turmoil, we need to practice a strict quarantine over this contagious disease. Whenever any of the dissenting ones attempts to contact you, no matter in what way and in what polite or ”spiritual" manner", you should keep the apostles’ teaching in Romans 16:17 and Titus 3:10 to turn away from him and reject him. Do not try to exhort or argue with such people or to find out what and how they really are. If you say anything to them, you will “swallow their bait” and they will “hook” you. You are a gentleman, a sincere, honest Christian, and a humble follower of the Lord, but they are under the deceiving of the devil and unavoidably bear some of his poison. It is impossible to talk or argue with them without being contaminated by their poison. Instead of spending the time to meet with this kind of dissenting ones, we had better save our time to pray and get into the Word so that we may have some riches of Christ to minister to the saints.

To serve the Lord, to be one of the co-workers, the first requirement is faithfulness not only to the Lord but also to His recovery. We must regard the Lord’s recovery and not consider it anyone’s personal work. Merely to be faithful to the Lord is not adequate. We must also be faithful to the Lord’s recovery. To show our faithfulness to the recovery, we must consider ourselves married to the recovery. We all need to get ourselves married to the Lord’s recovery. May the Lord have mercy on us all."
(From The Ministry of the New Testament and the Teaching and Fellowship of the Apostle, pp. 32-33.)

This title encapsulates the entire slippery slope quite nicely.

In one section, Lee strenuously argues that there is only one ministry even though there are many ministries and that because there is only one ministry, there are not many ministries. He then concludes the section by saying:

I hope that this matter will be made clear to all the dear saints in the Lord's recovery.

Yeah.

Like that's going to happen.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Ohio, If we say we are for "oneness of the spirit" or "oneness of the faith", then oneness with a particular ministry is insignificant and irrelative. This is since oneness of the spirit or oneness of the faith is not limited to any particular ministry. It is beyond rationale how brothers and sisters are "branded" because they have the width and the depth to recieve more than one earthly ministry. When you break it down, don't all these earthly ministries come from one heavenly ministry? Terry

Exactly!

"Early-Lee" was fond of saying "oneness of the spirit" or "oneness of the faith." It was "later-Lee" who transmuted this into the phrase "oneness of the body." This phrase is not in the Bible. Now you can see why it is not. The phrase is divisive. Then we come to the phrase "one with the ministry," and it gets worse. This phrase is not only divisive, but it is corrupting. This phrase transmutes brothers into "bullies." This phrase makes people "man-pleasers." This phrase makes us "anti-Christ."

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was "later-Lee" who transmuted this into the phrase "oneness of the body." This phrase is not in the Bible. Now you can see why it is not. The phrase is divisive.

I do not understand how that aspect of the one Body called its "oneness" is either unscriptural or divisive.

Eph 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
Eph 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
Eph 4:3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 {There is} one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Notwithstanding that, brother Paul clearly said there were multiple ministries, specifically for the benefit of the one Body:

1Cr 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cr 12:5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
1Cr 12:6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all {persons.}
1Cr 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Cr 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1Cr 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Cr 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another {various} kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Cr 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
1Cr 12:12 For even as the body is one and {yet} has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
1Cr 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

I do not understand how that aspect of the one Body called its "oneness" is either unscriptural or divisive.

The "oneness of the body" can be manipulated to provide scriptural incentive for any controlling leader in the RCC, the Brethren, or the LC's. This phrase has been used in recent history by the BB's to manipulate all LC's into submission. It robs us of our liberty to be one with Christ, the Head of the body. At its basest level, it silences all "concerned brothers" to go along with the program, and not voice any concerns. Oneness with leadership is used to coerce uniformity and limit all expressions of so-called "individuality" of saints, the "distinctions" of gifts of gifted ministers, and the various churches in the body of Christ.

The early church, headed up by Rome, must have had many precious brothers who were very concerned about the downward slide into idolatry, formality, hierarchy, and the like. What silenced their voices? The oneness of the body. That is exactly what "Catholic" means. The voice of conscience gets overruled by the oneness of the body. This is the exact same battle which was waged at the Whistler quarantine.

I believe many BB's are concerned about the present course of LSM action. They were concerned when John Ingalls was quarantined, and they were concerned when TC was quarantined. They are concerned about the many lawsuits. They were concerned about the behavior of Philip Lee. They were concerned about the power vested in LSM. Why are they silent? The "oneness of the body" has silenced them. It sounds sooooo good, even almost scriptural, but it can be a tool in the hands of God's enemy. He has used "distorted oneness" for 2,000 years. He has become quite good at it.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The oneness of the body. That is exactly what "Catholic" means. The voice of conscience gets overruled by the oneness of the body. This is the exact same battle which was waged at the Whistler quarantine.

Yeah, I guess I still don't really understand, though.

Maybe it's my stubbornness in distinguishing between the one Body and "Universal Church" that's getting in the way...

[Cal]

Someone tell me where in the Bible it says that in order to be faithful to the Lord we have to be faithful to His "recovery."

Sorry, but I don't see those verses. Someone want to enlighten me?

It bothers me very much when I read the Concerned Brothers writings, even those of Nigel Tomes, and they still talk about "The Recovery" as if it was something more than a movement.

It really makes me wonder about them and what they are thinking.

[Hope]

Dear Igzy,

I am with you on this "The Recovery Thing." I cannot ever remember using the term and was and am very bothered when I hear it. It absolutely refers to the work of Watchman Nee and those who seek to carry it forward. This is in the principle of the big tree versus the mustard seed. The tree is a perennial plant where as the mustard plant is an annual and must be new every year. The Lord's work is in the principle of the mustard plant and is always new and not some kind of tradition. The Holy Spirit plants His work new and fresh and does not depend on the passing on of a spiritual tradition or movement. Acts 13:36, "For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers, and underwent decay;" Here we see a very important principle. God has His servants for their generation. He never establishes a dynastic type spiritual work. David died!!! The Lord must raise up new servants for every generation.

Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple.