Re: Brian Houston: Let's Talk Leadership

[Dave]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill saga holds some very important lessons for the Christian community at large, and even more specifically for our dear brothers and sisters in the Local Church, I believe.
Driscoll is an extremely talented and powerful teacher, with a penchant for making the Gospel and Scriptures "culturally relevant" to a younger, unchurched audience. He used this talent and force of personality (mostly in a positive manner) to take a fledgling church of 20-30 people meeting in his apartment, all the way to a multi-site megachurch of over 5,000 - all in his 20s and 30s. Eventually, Driscoll's influence and powerful mega-personality became more powerful and influential to the leadership, and by extension to the rank and file members, than the message and work of the Gospel which they strove to proclaim. All the other sordid details of the Mars Hill meltdown are probably not as important to note, at least for us on LCD, as the fact that the person and work of Mark Driscoll became more important than the Person and Work of Jesus Christ (aka The Gospel).

Now to maybe the most important lesson. At some point Mark Driscoll, either through his own initiative or on the behest of others, created an elder council or board, which was empowered to discipline, and remove from leadership if necessary, any church leader, including Driscoll himself. So when the mega personality of the megachurch became a mega distraction to the main mission of the church (preaching, teaching and practicing the Gospel) Driscoll was placed under mandatory discipline, and rather than coming under the biblically mandated discipline mechanism which he himself helped create, he chose to take the easy way out and resign. There is very little doubt, that without this bilbically mandated discipline mechanism in place, Dricoll would have continued to do what he had apparently been doing for years - ignore the biblical and godly input from the elders of the church. God is not mocked. He will NOT share his glory with another, not even with the the mega personality of a megachurch. He may replace you, or he may just leave your house desolate. Either way he will get the glory.

If you listen to Ron Carpenter it seems he is following the same route or do you think he has taken a different turn? Obviously you may be more sensitive about Mark since he was the founder of Acts 29.

[UntoHim]

Nice to hear from you again Dave but you're off topic stuff belongs over here in lala land

[Dave]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Nice to hear from you again Dave but you're off topic stuff belongs over here in lala land

I'll take your word for it that it is off topic but both of these individuals are fairly young, both started small, both have been visionaries, both developed huge followings, both developed personality cults, both have had problems in their ministry (even though Driscoll lost his ministry from his Board it seems like that situation might be more like Steve Jobs losing Apple than anything), both are innovators, both came back after issues within their ministry (we can say that Ron's was not of his own making but no one really knows)... Time will tell regarding Driscoll but some of these innovators recover, come back to their ministry after it has difficulty continuing without their founder etc. Again, as I said I am sure you are more sensitive and interested in Driscoll because of his co-founding of Acts 29 but there you have to look beyond the microscope of Driscoll to see parallels in other ministries and other industries to understand not only the person but the scope of the issues. BTW---we might be able to add Watchman Nee into these parallels.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

I'll take your word for it that it is off topic but both of these individuals are fairly young, both started small, both have been visionaries, both developed huge followings, both developed personality cults, both have had problems in their ministry (even though Driscoll lost his ministry from his Board it seems like that situation might be more like Steve Jobs losing Apple than anything), both are innovators, both came back after issues within their ministry (we can say that Ron's was not of his own making but no one really knows)... Time will tell regarding Driscoll but some of these innovators recover, come back to their ministry after it has difficulty continuing without their founder etc. Again, as I said I am sure you are more sensitive and interested in Driscoll because of his co-founding of Acts 29 but there you have to look beyond the microscope of Driscoll to see parallels in other ministries and other industries to understand not only the person but the scope of the issues. BTW---we might be able to add Watchman Nee into these parallels.

So for us the cult we were in didn't work out. So ... let's try it again, in another way, following another leader. That doesn't work, well try another. That one doesn't work out, try another ... etc, etc.

What's that they say about the definition of insanity?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

So for us the cult we were in didn't work out. So ... let's try it again, in another way, following another leader. That doesn't work, well try another. That one doesn't work out, try another ... etc, etc.

What's that they say about the definition of insanity?

Unfortunately that seems to be the profile. Some of the followers of WN/WL on this forum became followers of Driscoll but they don't see the parallels. In this case he left them rather than the other way around with WN/WL or maybe Lee did leave us. There are always these saviors and Ron Carpenter who proclaims himself an apostle is just another one. It is one of the maladies of the human race throughout the history of religious belief. It is the problem of the difficulty of thinking for oneself. There is a need in the human condition to latch onto someone who can save us from ourselves. We're all guilty but these guys are just symptoms of the malady.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

There are always these saviors and Ron Carpenter who proclaims himself an apostle is just another one. It is one of the maladies of the human race throughout the history of religious belief. It is the problem of the difficulty of thinking for oneself. There is a need in the human condition to latch onto someone who can save us from ourselves. We're all guilty but these guys are just symptoms of the malady.

I agree that this is appropriate to a Nee/Lee discussion. I read some of the Driscoll/Carpenter stories on the internet, including interviews with the principals, and it was readily apparent that they could only talk about 3 things: Me, me, and me. It looked like the kingdom of self writ large, and it's rather instructive how many people climbed on board before the whole thing imploded.

Here's a snippet on Driscoll:

Originally Posted by Seattle Times

For years the edgy, blue-jeaned, hipster preacher used charisma and combativeness to barrel through turmoil, once bragging that he’d mow down all who questioned his vision: “There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, and by God’s grace, it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done,” he once said in a meeting. “You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus.”

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-...s-hill-church/

Driscoll would snowball people with charm, and bully those who wavered. Those who couldn't get on the Driscoll bus got exiled. Members were told to avoid them. And Carpenter, if possible, seems even more extreme. Self-absorbed and narcissistic. These guys shouldn't have been leading a Bible study, much less a church. And the fact that they got so big before they self-destructed, as Dave said, tells us a lot about ourselves as well. We'd do well to look in the mirror, here. These examples, and these stories are about us, and our experiences, as well.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

I agree that this is appropriate to a Nee/Lee discussion. I read some of the Driscoll/Carpenter stories on the internet, including interviews with the principals, and it was readily apparent that they could only talk about 3 things: Me, me, and me. It looked like the kingdom of self writ large, and it's rather instructive how many people climbed on board before the whole thing imploded.

Here's a snippet on Driscoll:

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-...s-hill-church/

Driscoll would snowball people with charm, and bully those who wavered. Those who couldn't get on the Driscoll bus got exiled. Members were told to avoid them. And Carpenter, if possible, seems even more extreme. Self-absorbed and narcissistic. These guys shouldn't have been leading a Bible study, much less a church. And the fact that they got so big before they self-destructed, as Dave said, tells us a lot about ourselves as well. We'd do well to look in the mirror, here. These examples, and these stories are about us, and our experiences, as well.

Of course there are parallels. All of these individuals to include WL/WN had exponential growth in their following in their early days. They all hit the brick wall at one point for various reasons although Ron Carpenter's problem was his wife's affair with another guy for 5 years so who knows what that is all about. Of course what drives me crazy is when Ron Carpenter says he is an apostle. I can agree in a general description of that word but he is not saying he is a pastor/minister etc---no, Apostle---of course self-anointed just like WL---well, excuse me, I'm sorry, God appointed them Apostles just like Jesus appointed the 12 disciples and Paul.

Of course, time will tell how both driscoll and carpenter play out since they are both relatively young. WN was a remarkable Christian in his efforts to go against the prevailing ideas of a "church" and Christian life. In that sense you can't compare Nee to Driscoll or Carpenter except that the limelight affected them all. And as Aron as noted, in the end they went to me, me, me. Obviously Lee was willing to cover up major problems with his son and was an authoritarian from the get go. Of course, Steve Jobs was a megalomaniac and screwed up his personal life until the end in his efforts to change the world. But he wasn't a Christian and wasn't transformed whereas all of these guys received Christ but still went off the deep end---again, Carpenter is still a work in progress but this apostle thing is problematic.

This is kind of a side remark but it is remarkable that over the last 2000 years there has been no Abraham, no Moses, no David, no Solomon in the Christian world. Constantine, an emperor promoted the Council of Nicea in 325AD and what is often not stated is that moment was the continuation and promotion of what would be the RCC. At a later council Pope Urban II in 1095 started the 9 crusades. This was not changed until 1517 when Martin Luther posted his 95 thesis'. Of course Luther was a turning point. Also, all Biblical scripture has ended and all has been written. During the entire history of Israel scripture was being written. It has stopped, ended, done, world without end. We're all just waiting for the Second Coming....nothing else to do. We are going to see more Driscolls, Carpenters, WN/WL---because Christians have had 2000 years to develop and someone is always out there willing to give hope because Christianity is without direction. Each denomination and movement are there to maintain themselves. They are just going through the motions with emotion.

I don't know if anyone ever read the "Burnt Over District". It was an area of NY which was heavily Evangelized in the late 1800s until people just became so hardened it was difficult to preach the gospel in that area. The only thing that can be done today is try and expand Christianity to China and South America etc.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

Of course, time will tell how both driscoll and carpenter play out since they are both relatively young. WN was a remarkable Christian in his efforts to go against the prevailing ideas of a "church" and Christian life. In that sense you can't compare Nee to Driscoll or Carpenter except that the limelight affected them all. And as Aron as noted, in the end they went to me, me, me. ... all of these guys received Christ but still went off the deep end---again, Carpenter is still a work in progress but this apostle thing is problematic.

... We are going to see more Driscolls, Carpenters, WN/WL---because Christians have had 2000 years to develop and someone is always out there willing to give hope because Christianity is without direction. Each denomination and movement are there to maintain themselves. They are just going through the motions with emotion.

I liked that last line - they are going through the motions with emotion. Emotion is what sustains us in our behaviors, and reveals our source. When Carpenter's marriage unraveled, all he could talk about was his suffering, his trauma. Suppose you are one of the thousands who has hitched your wagon on his star - did you get saved to listen to Ron Carpenter go on about what he had for breakfast, and his emotional state while so doing? Because that's what you are going to get.

I'd like to bring it a little closer to home. Remember the article, "We were wrong" by CRI? One of the articles was written by Gretchen Passantino, who was introduced by Hank Hanegraaf as a "world-renowned expert" in cults. My question is, whose world? No citations were given. Not one shred of objective evidence for the statement.

What I am getting to is that these people (WN, WL, HH, Carpenter, Driscoll, Brian Houston) are experts in amateurish self-promotion. Go to their web sites and they list all the awards they have gotten. "Most charismatic presenter" at the 2012 Ladies Aid Luncheon. Just bizarre arbitrary stuff, something to tout themselves and their "ministry" with. ("Best-selling author"...10 best? 100 best? 50 best? One-million best?) And Christ, if he ever existed (and He usually did, at one point in their lives) has long since receded into the background. It is now the Kingdom of Me.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Of course what drives me crazy is when Ron Carpenter says he is an apostle. I can agree in a general description of that word but he is not saying he is a pastor/minister etc---no, Apostle---of course self-anointed just like WL---well, excuse me, I'm sorry, God appointed them Apostles just like Jesus appointed the 12 disciples and Paul.

Apostle is a handy word for Christians who are actually megalomaniacs. If they can't raise the dead they're full of you know what.

I don't know who is worse; the suckers who fall for those that claim to be an apostle, or those claiming to be one. I guess they need each other.

Check out Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Televangelists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

Use your faith, use your faith, to sow big seed donations to reap huge harvests. And gullible believers fall for it, time and time again.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Apostle is a handy word for Christians who are actually megalomaniacs. If they can't raise the dead they're full of you know what.

I don't know who is worse; the suckers who fall for those that claim to be an apostle, or those claiming to be one. I guess they need each other.

Check out Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Televangelists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

Use your faith, use your faith, to sow big seed donations to reap huge harvests. And gullible believers fall for it, time and time again.

Cured my Lupus!!!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Cured my Lupus!!!

Me too. And I didn't know I even had it. Haha

They turn faith AND Jesus into a clown. It's embarrassing really. I guess somebody needs to fleece the sheep. They seem to be crying out for it.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

Me too. And I didn't know I even had it. Haha

They turn faith AND Jesus into a clown. It's embarrassing really. I guess somebody needs to fleece the sheep. They seem to be crying out for it.

I just had a revelation this morning. Awareness and Zeek have been anointed "Apostles" by God for various reasons (about time don't you think?). The revelation also added myself, of course. Should we call ourselves, "The Three Apostles" and hit broadway with this surefire hit?

The sad thing is that people are gullible because they are looking for answers in their lives and these guys/gals are willing to pick their pockets to provide them with answers. Look at the media set up these people have developed. Plus, selling their sermons on DVD etc.

When you think about Daystar and other ventures of WL and apparently ventures in China with WN with people believing that they have found the absolute revelation of the Bible with these "Apostles" they are willing to extend their trust followed by their money to these people.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

I just had a revelation this morning. Awareness and Zeek have been anointed "Apostles" by God for various reasons (about time don't you think?). The revelation also added myself, of course. Should we call ourselves, "The Three Apostles" and hit broadway with this surefire hit?

That's funny. I tender my resignation from Apostleship immediately. There are too many Apostles already without adding my name to the list. But, feel free to send money.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

That's funny. I tender my resignation from Apostleship immediately. There are too many Apostles already without adding my name to the list. But, feel free to send money.

You have a point. I think we are overrun by Apostles. What will they think of next---Prophets? I think they already have their allocation of those. Maybe Angels sent from on high? I think that might make it interesting.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Dave

Obviously Lee was willing to cover up major problems with his son and was an authoritarian from the get go.

Don't forget a historical revisionist. I tend to look at history in order to understand the present. We know otherwise, but Lee's history tends to present himself as Nee's closest coworker if not his only coworker. Part of Lee's cover-up is by revising history. We've read about it in several LSM publications.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Terry

Don't forget a historical revisionist. I tend to look at history in order to understand the present. We know otherwise, but Lee's history tends to present himself as Nee's closest coworker if not his only coworker. Part of Lee's cover-up is by revising history. We've read about it in several LSM publications.

Revisionist is the word of history. If we would have only known the real relationship. I don't recall WN writing about WL in his writings but maybe you have read something. Lee can only write a new history because there is no historical writings that I am aware that makes him the co-worker who is sent by Nee to Taiwan. There is Samuel Chang who I met (but never inquired about WN/WL) so maybe he has said something and maybe other WN's coworkers can validate WL's claims. I am sure there was some inquisition into to these questions by the early brothers who met WL. I also know there were some serious problems in Taiwan with WL. In the end I don't see the lineage from Martin Luther to WL---it is a major stretch even though the local church concept makes sense from a Biblical standpoint---but when they doctrinized it they turned it into its own religion.

As we start to look at Driscoll and Carpenter and many others revisionist history abounds.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Revisionist is the word of history. If we would have only known the real relationship. I don't recall WN writing about WL in his writings but maybe you have read something. Lee can only write a new history because there is no historical writings that I am aware that makes him the co-worker who is sent by Nee to Taiwan. There is Samuel Chang who I met (but never inquired about WN/WL) so maybe he has said something and maybe other WN's coworkers can validate WL's claims. I am sure there was some inquisition into to these questions by the early brothers who met WL. I also know there were some serious problems in Taiwan with WL. In the end I don't see the lineage from Martin Luther to WL---it is a major stretch even though the local church concept makes sense from a Biblical standpoint---but when they doctrinized it they turned it into its own religion.

As we start to look at Driscoll and Carpenter and many others revisionist history abounds.

If you want to see a very influential evangelical revisionist check out David Barton, of Wallbuilders fame, a Rushdoony Christian dominionist:
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-an...uack-historian

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

If you want to see a very influential evangelical revisionist check out David Barton, of Wallbuilders fame, a Rushdoony Christian dominionist:
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-an...uack-historian

I read that article the other day. It doesn't get any worse.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

I read that article the other day. It doesn't get any worse.

It really belongs on the Fundamentalist thread. Barton is an avid fundamentalist ... as are many of the Reconstructionists, pushing this Christian revision of our founding, making the Christian religion the basis and intention of our founding, and not freedom of religion or from.

This is a case of Christian fundamentalism gone crazy. They are seeking to bring back Old Testament law and stoning ... a Christian version of ISIS, another fundamentalism that's gone wrong.

Why is it the those trying so hard to define and hold to Christian fundamentals end up not acting Christian, but acting Old Testament?

I blame it on their first fundamental: The whole Bible being the Word of God. Then slavery, stoning, and even genocide, are okay with God.

[OBW]

[QUOTE=awareness;43441]It really belongs on the Fundamentalist thread. Barton is an avid fundamentalist ... as are many of the Reconstructionists, pushing this Christian revision of our founding, making the Christian religion the basis and intention of our founding, and not freedom of religion or from. [\QUOTE]Not fundamentalism.

Funny Mentalism!!

These guys are just raving loonatics.