“Local Church ‘Cult’ Label has stuck”—says LSM Star turned Academic

[aron]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

My point is that a romantic experience of Christ trumps everything else. Ephesus had it and lost it.

The LC experience certainly stressed love for the Lord Jesus in continual expression, both corporate and private. I don't really remember such talk before coming to the LC (though my initial church experience was pretty limited). It undoubtedly attracted me, as it did many others.

The other half of the Great Commandment, to love one's neighbor as oneself, can be problematic, obviously. Given the strong emphasis on the LC "corporate life" there was the appearance of love, at first glance, and again, this was attractive. People were visiting each other in the homes, staying after church meetings to talk, have meals, etc. We'd travel to other cities to have conferences, and would stay in the homes of the LC saints. They called it "hospitality", as in 1 Peter 4:9. There seemed to be an awful lot of love expressed in openness, reception, and giving and sharing.

So far so good. But what of those outside the ministry's sphere of influence? No love. I am thinking specifically our attitude toward "degraded Christianity", and also the "poor building material" like the poor, the aged, the infirm, etc. "Don't waste your time", I was told by the FTTA trainer. Go for the young, Caucasian, college students. That's what we're after.

Secondly, what of the inevitable schism when Leader A doesn't want to kowtow to Leader B? Leader A takes "his" flock away, and Leader B likewise, and you're like a kid whose parents divorce: you love both Mom and Dad, but Mom now seems to hate Dad and vice verse. What to do? How to show love? Do I love the folks in Leader A's flock now, or Leader B's? Or both? Or neither?

So we continue to attempt our love affair with Jesus, but under considerably straightened circumstances than when the journey first began. But we go on. In my case I take comfort in the word of God, and try to minister from it, to whomever my neighbour may be. Others, obviously, may be led to minister in more formal, structured organizational environments. Like SC in his church, f'rinstance. Some of us may occasionally feel like John on Patmos, gazing back "in spirit, on the Lord's Day", at the churches on the mainland. We're now physically removed, but something inside keeps us connected.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The LC experience certainly stressed love for the Lord Jesus in continual expression, both corporate and private. ... Given the strong emphasis on the "corporate life" there was the appearance of love, at first glance. Again, this was attractive. There seemed to be an awful lot of love expressed in openness, reception, and giving and sharing.

So far so good. But what of those outside the ministry's sphere of influence? No love. I am thinking specifically our attitude toward "degraded Christianity", and also the "poor building material" like the poor, the aged, the infirm, etc. "Don't waste your time", I was told by the FTTA trainer. Go for the young, Caucasian, college students. That's what we're after.

I understand that my views are simplistic here, but I see all LC problems based on Acts 20.30, as Paul warned Ephesus with tears.

Those "early days" were notable because we were Christ-centered, and focused on the word of God. Despite our problems, it was a life-changing for many of us in positive ways. Lee, however, along with his minions demanded all the perks and glories of God's blessings. As Lee steadily rose in prominence, accompanied by storms and quarantines, all the positives vanished. Today we merely have a shell of the reality once enjoyed, but that does not mean that our reality was flawed, only that those who remained have chosen not to heed Paul's warning.

[Lisbon]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I understand that my views are simplistic here, but I see all LC problems based on Acts 20.30, as Paul warned Ephesus with tears.

Those "early days" were notable because we were Christ-centered, and focused on the word of God. Despite our problems, it was a life-changing for many of us in positive ways. Lee, however, along with his minions demanded all the perks and glories of God's blessings. As Lee steadily rose in prominence, accompanied by storms and quarantines, all the positives vanished. Today we merely have a shell of the reality once enjoyed, but that does not mean that our reality was flawed, only that those who remained have chosen not to heed Paul's warning.

I can somewhat agree with this post but. Looking back over my forty years and possibly learning of Lee ten or so years Pryor, I have great concerns about our church life of the sixties of which I had no part. Had I known I was joining a group that was headed up by the only apostle of the 20th century, I don't believe I would have come in.

Having been completely out only two a half years, I get clearer and clearer as time goes on that we were just plain conned.

The first thing that attracted us was the "today and this week" enjoyment of our salvation. Years down the road this kind of testimony was to be belittled.
Early, 'we were just for the pure word of God. This got badly derailed as WL chose what was God's economy.

I for years knew the term 'garlic room' but never heard it spoken of so much. Why? We were being ushered into the garlic room and never to say anything about it. The garlic room was 'out there'.
They have hirelings 'out there'. Our elders all have jobs. We never take an offering. One has to ask how to contribute. Not that long ago, two brothers came to Dallas to raise money for the new property in Boston. Their first words were we are not here for the money. Huh? What kind of idiots did they think we were?
WL is a lowly bond slave of the Lord an by extension so are the BBs. They care for 75 millions of dollars of real estate. A slave? Excommunicate churches thousands of miles away? A slave?

This is just plain evil and it is hard for me to believe it didn't start a long time ago. Paul said, "From among you will come wolves." I do think it is obviously wolves in sheep's clothing. WL was such a soft speaking fellow. I heard of elder's meetings where the real Lee stood up. We sheeple only heard the Lee who began to be transformed by his sister close to the time of his conversion.

The horrible part of it all, are we all the same way. At this stage in the game, I don't trust BP, RG, RK, MC or who? I trust my present minister more than the BBs and I don't feel so good about that.
How we must pray.
Lisbon

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by aron

So we continue to attempt our love affair with Jesus, but under considerably straightened circumstances than when the journey first began. But we go on. In my case I take comfort in the word of God, and try to minister from it, to whomever my neighbour may be. Others, obviously, may be led to minister in more formal, structured organizational environments. Like SC in his church, f'rinstance. Some of us may occasionally feel like John on Patmos, gazing back "in spirit, on the Lord's Day", at the churches on the mainland. We're now physically removed, but something inside keeps us connected.

Yes, this is part of that romantic experience I'm talking about. I really liked your line, "gazing back 'in spirit, on the Lord's Day' at the churches on the mainland."

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

. . . .

In my case I take comfort in the word of God, and try to minister from it, to whomever my neighbour may be. Others, obviously, may be led to minister in more formal, structured organizational environments. Like SC in his church, f'rinstance. Some of us may occasionally feel like John on Patmos, gazing back "in spirit, on the Lord's Day", at the churches on the mainland. We're now physically removed, but something inside keeps us connected.

I liked your post overall. But this part caused a question in me. What is loving your neighbor as yourself? What you mention here is potentially only a part of what you think would encompass that command. But it is not stated in that way.

I note that there are a lot of people that think of loving their neighbor only in terms of how they share the Word with them, preach the gospel to them, help them become more Christ-like, etc. I am constantly baffled at how many good Christians will only engage in "social" activities if there is the opportunity to share the gospel or talk about Christ. If that is not an option, they are not interested.

But it would seem that giving food to one of the "least of these" is part of loving neighbor. And Jesus didn't say that you should feed them and teach them some good teachings. Just feed them.

So why, when the discussion turns to loving your neighbor as yourself, does our talk turn to preaching the gospel or sharing the Word? Seems that the command to "justice" is about food, shelter, and righteous interactions, not preaching and teaching. And surely the command to justice is a significant part of loving your neighbor as yourself.

This is probably the reason that evangelicals so often do not seem to think that being righteous is more important than relying on grace to continually cover their shortcomings. They think that how they live is unimportant in the grand scheme of things. They think that their testimony is mainly in the speaking of un-seeable events rather than in living visibly in a manner that is not like the "nations." They think that the way they actually live is irrelevant to their testimony. They think that the fact they can claim to have Christ in their lives and get great enjoyment from it, and feel free from their sins (even the ones they keep on doing) is attractive to people who otherwise don't care. People don't want to just feel better about themselves. They want to actually be better. But we are teaching ourselves that you don't have to be better. Just keep on relying on grace (which does work) and feel better about yourself. Not a whole lot different from some of the superiority shtick that the LCM taught us.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

What is loving your neighbor as yourself? What you mention here is potentially only a part of what you think would encompass that command. But it is not stated in that way.

I note that there are a lot of people that think of loving their neighbor only in terms of how they share the Word with them, preach the gospel to them, help them become more Christ-like, etc. .. it would seem that giving food to one of the "least of these" is part of loving neighbor. And Jesus didn't say that you should feed them and teach them some good teachings. Just feed them.

So why, when the discussion turns to loving your neighbor as yourself, does our talk turn to preaching the gospel or sharing the Word? Seems that the command to "justice" is about food, shelter, and righteous interactions, not preaching and teaching. And surely the command to justice is a significant part of loving your neighbor as yourself.

Of course, Jesus gave actual food to actual people, not just Bible expositions. He healed actual sick people. But the giving and healing were not of themselves, but rather evidences of the coming kingdom of God which He incessantly proclaimed. So what I do is point to the Healer and Giver. I myself am not so much, but I do attempt to follow. And yes that involves doing things, as well, or at least trying.

But Jesus' focus was on the Father's kingdom. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done", and "Thy will be done not Mine" were his speaking. Likewise as Paul said, we don't preach ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord.

Simply put, this is what interests me. Something else may interest someone else. So I selfishly pursue my joy, and if I get too much then I share my joy, and that is to see Jesus Christ, without which food or shelter would be plain things, indeed.

But speaking without works, or without substance, is bland as well. Yet what works I do, merely give motive force to the speaking - the works are for the speaking and the speaking is for the kingdom. "If you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves." Because the works are speaking forth the arrival of the Father's kingdom.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

But Jesus' focus was on the Father's kingdom. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done", and "Thy will be done not Mine" were his speaking. Likewise as Paul said, we don't preach ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord.

So what is the kingdom? Spirituality?

Or righteousness, peace, love, joy, justice, etc. All the things that go into bearing the image of God?

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

So what is the kingdom?

The kingdom is to do the Father's will. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done" is set up as two sides of the same coin. Just as "Love God" and "Love your neighbor" are.

Whether I live in the kingdom or not, I cannot say, but I do know what it is. The years have not been altogether vain.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

The kingdom is to do the Father's will. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done" is set up as two sides of the same coin. Just as "Love God" and "Love your neighbor" are.

Expanded, I would say that a kingdom consists of a king and his subjects*. If the people are not subject then there is no kingdom. Therefore, we might view the kingdom as consisting of the king, his subjects, and the relations between them. The subjects obey and render honor and glory, and the king rules, and gives peace to the land.

Jesus was the Obedient Son: He was the Son of the King, the Man who went to the proverbial "far country" to receive for Himself a kingdom (Luke 19:12). He then became the King of kings and Lord of lords. The disciples were obedient to Him, and thus procured for themselves kingship as well. But our kingship is not to boss others around, but to exhibit self control, to hear and obey the Word of God, and to tell the forces of darkness which have usurped humankind that their day is over. In the name of Jesus, they must depart. They must now and henceforth release the enslaved human race.

A story on obedience: once Jesus told Peter to do something really stupid. But Peter obeyed, because of his relationship with Jesus. I bet he felt dumb, going down to the seashore and casting a hook into the water. What a dumb way to get a coin! Peter, a fisherman, probably had never seen a fish with a coin in its mouth. Yet Jesus commanded, and Peter obeyed. It wasn't about a coin, or about fishing, or about the temple tax. It was about remaining in relationship with Jesus, just as Jesus continually remained in relationship with His Father in heaven.

Originally Posted by aron

Whether I live in the kingdom or not, I cannot say, but I do know what it is. The years have not been altogether vain.

As a confessing Christian I do believe the rudiments of the faith. I have confessed Jesus Christ as Lord, and thus I do hold myself as a citizen of the kingdom of Heaven. But how much I obey, and how much I live in the reality of my confession, the Father knows. I don't judge myself or others, but attempt to press on, while it is today.

*Of course that should be a regent, and his/her subjects. The English case is a good example: we have very successful queens such as Queen Elizabeth I and II, Queen Victoria, and so forth. But I'll keep it in the masculine here, according to the ideas of "Father" and "Son".

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

The kingdom is to do the Father's will. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done" is set up as two sides of the same coin. Just as "Love God" and "Love your neighbor" are.

I am glad that you provided a follow-on post because "to do the Father's will" is, at some level, about as vague as we can get.

Seems that "love God and lover your neighbor" is a better definition, although it is still within "do the Father's will."

And what we do together in the setting of a meeting can, at best, only deal with one of those commandments to love. And even that one can be missed in that setting. This is why I have been so strong concerning the practical aspects of righteousness, justice, joy, peace, love, etc., outside of meetings because if we are getting this part wrong, it is likely that we are getting the meeting parts wrong as well. We may say all the right "you are lord and king" stuff and declare that we love him. But if we don't continue it into loving neighbor as self, it was probably just window dressing.

Surely doing all the outward stuff without God is meaningless. But how often do any of us do the outward stuff even with God? I suspect that actually doing the outward stuff would tend to be pretty good evidence that it is "with God." No need to point at the amount of quiet time or the involvement in meeting stuff. It must be enough if we are actually managing to do the outward stuff. Otherwise we would probably be falling flat on our faces. Meanwhile, too many still focus on getting all the "inward" stuff right and hope that it will some day manifest itself in the outward. But not a single step in that direction in the mean time.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Surely doing all the outward stuff without God is meaningless. But how often do any of us do the outward stuff even with God? I suspect that actually doing the outward stuff would tend to be pretty good evidence that it is "with God."

Faith without works is dead, as are works independent of God. But Jesus' works were living and operative, because everything that He did was according to the Father's will. Everything was in obedience. Nothing was done apart from the Father - there was no delay, no remonstration, no false promise, no half-hearted gestures, no defiance. Everything He did was one with the Father in heaven. Surely the gates of heaven were open, and angels were ascending and descending.

So it is not works per se, but obedience which resulted in works. It was not merely faith but faithfulness, i.e. continual abiding in the reality of the Father's will. The Father may say, "Speak", or "Be silent", and either one is an opportunity to obey and be one with God.

At its core the gospel record is very simple. There was a Man on earth, wholly one with Father God in heaven. All the rest is just details. Marvelous, wonderful details. "And if all the things Jesus did were written, I suppose the world itself could not contain all the books."

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

I am glad that you provided a follow-on post because "to do the Father's will" is, at some level, about as vague as we can get.

Seems that "love God and lover your neighbor" is a better definition, although it is still within "do the Father's will."

And what we do together in the setting of a meeting can, at best, only deal with one of those commandments to love. And even that one can be missed in that setting. This is why I have been so strong concerning the practical aspects of righteousness, justice, joy, peace, love, etc., outside of meetings because if we are getting this part wrong, it is likely that we are getting the meeting parts wrong as well.

"Love your neighbor" is also vague. We can come to the meetings, and declare, "How we love our neighbors!!", while we ignore them, or badmouth them. Funny, now that I think of it, that's the LC, isn't it? "We love everyone, but since they're not on the proper ground we can't have anything to do with them, except point out all their flaws."

Jesus wasn't a Bible teacher who sat in a corner and taught a few acolytes. He got on the street and radically changed lives. Lives that seemed unchangeable. He not only fed with the bread that perishes, but the bread that comes down out of heaven. He not only healed bodies but healed souls. He mended both flesh and psyche.

He didn't sit in a closet and have an "inner life" that was in continual communion with the Father, but had this communion continue on the street. Yes it drew its source in the quiet time. The record is clear. Yet, the result of this quiet time was seen in the market, and the homes, and the highways and byways of the world.

The real love is to love those who can't love you back. And the real work is to do the Father's will. And both of these are found in the person of Jesus Christ. Our job, as disciples, is to announce this One, preaching and teaching to every man and woman, both small and great. Along the way there are also "works", yes; the works prove the ministry. And obedience proves the relation with the Father, just as with Jesus. "If you don't believe my words, then believe the works that I do. This shows that I came forth from the Father."