The 'Lonely Triune God' LSM's Oxymoron - TOMES

[SpeakersCorner]

A brother I respect greatly recently said, Watchman Nee's name was sullied during his lifetime. It was uplifted in his death. Witness Lee's followed a reverse trajectory, exalted in his lifetime (at least by insiders) and made toxic after his death.

It's an interesting observation. I wonder how long the half-life of toxicity will last for Lee. It seems to me a lot of the criticism against his theology is simply a recoil from the ugly side of the LCC experience.

But I've noticed a faint thawing in the ice in several venues, including here. Maybe all of us who actually sat in his trainings will have to die before the ice completely melts. At some point someone will discover his theology and treasure it afresh, I predict.

[SpeakersCorner]

One more thing:

Karen McNaughton's line about her and Tom's marriage being like two semis hitting head on seems very much like our "marriage" to the Lord. Really, it is a major crash. It's a miracle any of us survive it, even God.

But what a glorious wreck it is. The two drivers, tiny and shaking, emerge from the wrecked trucks, look over the damage, shake hands, and become eternal friends.

Jacob and the angel, wrestling all night, ending with a limp and a blessing. Ya gotta love it.

Yeah, I'm mixing metaphors but I like it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

At some point someone will discover his theology and treasure it afresh, I predict.

Not as long as the internet exists. Same for Nee.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

It seems to me a lot of the criticism against his theology is simply a recoil from the ugly side of the LCC experience.

That ugly side was the direct fruit of his theology.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

It seems to me a lot of the criticism against his theology is simply a recoil from the ugly side of the LCC experience.

Originally Posted by Igzy

That ugly side was the direct fruit of his theology.

Many of us former Local Churchers (me included), have to one degree or another, talked ourselves into believing that theology/teaching/doctrine can actually be separated and/or removed from our experience and practice. I think this faulty, and potentially dangerous, understanding came from Witness Lee himself, who was constantly emphasizing experience and practice (Calling on the Lord, Pray-Reading, going to meetings, etc) over against traditional notions of studying, contemplation and meditation on God's Word. If we had been doing the later we wouldn't have swallowed wholesale all the bad theology, and in turn we wouldn't see all the bad fruit of the aberrant and harmful practices.

For the 10+ years on these forums I have challenged anyone to tell me how the Blended Brothers significantly differ from Witness Lee in teaching OR in practice. No takers. Why? Because the BB's practices - good, bad and in between, all come directly from Witness Lee and his theology/teaching. Lee taught he was the only speaking for God on earth, and the BB's now teach that Lee was the only person speaking for God on earth (hence the One Publication policy), Lee taught that the only way to have growth and sanctification in the Christian life was to follow his person and his work (hence BB's telling LCers that outside of their little sect there are NO great spiritual persons ON EARTH, and that the ONLY PLACE ON EARTH to get sanctified is in The Local Church of Witness Lee) There are many more examples I could give you. The bottom line is the BB's are THE UNDENIABLE FRUIT of the bad theology/teaching of Witness Lee. They are truly his continuation.

[SpeakersCorner]

Oops, posted to the wrong place.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

For the 10+ years on these forums I have challenged anyone to tell me how the Blended Brothers significantly differ from Witness Lee in teaching OR in practice. No takers.

Ten years is a long time to go through decompression. At what point have you gotten free from the LC years?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Ten years is a long time to go through decompression. At what point have you gotten free from the LC years?

It is a long time. Which again speaks to how bad Lee's theology and leadership was. But I got over it a long time ago. Now I try to help others. But I wouldn't have gotten over it without this board. And this board the LCM leadership calls "lawless." A designation surely inspired by Lee's mindset.

Now, think about that. The board that God used to set me free to himself the LCM calls lawless. What does that tell you?

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Igzy

It is a long time. Which again speaks to how bad Lee's theology and leadership was. But I got over it a long time ago. Now I try to help others. But I wouldn't have gotten over it without this board. And this board the LCM leadership calls "lawless." A designation surely inspired by Lee's mindset.

Now, think about that. The board that God used to set me free to himself the LCM calls lawless. What does that tell you?

UntoHim, Igzy,

I've been working all afternoon and evening, thinking and rethinking my last post. Was it a cheap shot? I don't know. At any rate, I don't feel good about it so I offer my apology. I realize many of you have moved on past your original departure and view this board as a ministry.

Again, I spoke rashly and feel I was especially unfair to UntoHim, who welcomed me back graciously.

Please forgive me.

SC

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Ten years is a long time to go through decompression. At what point have you gotten free from the LC years?

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

UntoHim, Igzy,

I've been working all afternoon and evening, thinking and rethinking my last post. Was it a cheap shot? I don't know. At any rate, I don't feel good about it so I offer my apology. I realize many of you have moved on past your original departure and view this board as a ministry.

Again, I spoke rashly and feel I was especially unfair to UntoHim, who welcomed me back graciously.

Please forgive me.

SC

No worries my friend SpeakersCorner. I didn't take it as a cheap shot because I thought maybe you misunderstood the thrust of my post, which was probably poorly worded. Sometimes in public forums misunderstanding breeds misunderstanding. Hey, welcome back to LocalChurchDiscussions!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

UntoHim, Igzy,

I've been working all afternoon and evening, thinking and rethinking my last post. Was it a cheap shot? I don't know. At any rate, I don't feel good about it so I offer my apology. I realize many of you have moved on past your original departure and view this board as a ministry.

Again, I spoke rashly and feel I was especially unfair to UntoHim, who welcomed me back graciously.

Please forgive me.

SC

Apology appreciated and accepted. I don't post here near as much as I used to. The endless discussion of the financial shenanigans of the movement doesn't interest me much. My interest is in helping people.

But when something interesting happens, like you returning, I perk up. I've always waited for that one LCM member who will honestly and openly discuss objections to the movement and its teachings and practices. I have yet to meet one who will do it for more than a few posts. Once you pin them down they disappear. It's like clockwork. They say they don't like the death or whatever. But the fact is they don't have answers.

LCMers believe what they believe because its their culture. I met three Mormon young men in California last summer. They were wholesome and really the kind of men you'd like your daughter to bring home. I think they were true believers. They just didn't believe Jesus was God. I debated with them to little avail. But later I thought to ask, If we all believe in the same God and Savior, then why is it that you believe that 99% of the believers are wrong about the divinity of Christ and you are right? The answer of course is that they believe they are right because their culture told them they are.

The LCM mind works much the same way. Lee is the "best" not because his theology has produced the goods, but because it's the LCM culture to believe it. They hope against hope that he will make a comeback. But it's not going to happen in our western culture of tolerance and multiculturalism. Lee was too exclusive. That makes him radioactive. Add in the scandals, the lawsuits, the excommunications, and you have DOA. Nee was lily white (until recently anyway), but interest in him is fading with time. Thinking Lee will ever be popular is dreaming.

And why should he be? Is the point that he be lifted up? If you think he had some good things to share then pass those on and see what kind of reaction you get. But trying to sell Lee as a package is a waste of time. The Great Commission is not about pushing former teachers.

PS
Thinking that Lee alone has what the world needs and that there is a huge conspiracy of the Devil and everyone else to block it is just plain silly. That's the kind of thing Ayn Rand followers believe.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Many of us former Local Churchers (me included), have to one degree or another, talked ourselves into believing that theology/teaching/doctrine can actually be separated and/or removed from our experience and practice. I think this faulty, and potentially dangerous, understanding came from Witness Lee himself, who was constantly emphasizing experience and practice (Calling on the Lord, Pray-Reading, going to meetings, etc) over against traditional notions of studying, contemplation and meditation on God's Word.

I see what you are saying, but in a different way.

We cannot separate our theology from our practice. But our practice is a window into the value of our theology. However, there are two levels of theology — that which you have argued yourself into thinking is right and which you will argue for, and that which has become true and affects your life. And we often cannot tell the difference between the two. But it shows in our practice.

While I will not say that war is immoral, or that there is no sin, when we speak of those &@$*# homosexuals, ISIS insurgents, liberals, illegal aliens, or whatever, we may hold to "love your neighbor as yourself" as theologically true, but it is not the theology we live. And it is therefore not really our theology. We talk like it is, but we don't believe it enough to reject our natural hatred, bigotry, etc., and live like it is. So our practical theology is not what we say is our theology.

And many who still speak in that manner study, contemplate, and meditate on God's word.

What is true is that our actual theology is never separated from our practice. If our theology is colored with Americanism, we will tend to believe in the ability of anyone to do anything they set their minds to. And some will take it further and believe a prosperity gospel, followed either by self-confirmation when they succeed, or by condemnation when they don't. If your theology is colored with "I'm part of God's best, unlike others" it will show in the way that you look down your nose at your brothers in Christ who do not follow your way. If your theology is all about evangelism, you will focus on "bringing people to Christ" but at the expense of other sound theology.

Truth is, we are all part of God's best because we are all part of the body of Christ.

And if our theology is mostly mental assent, then we will simply give mental assent to the truth and live in a different manner because we believe something else stronger. In liberalism or conservatism. In money or self determinism. In nationalism or globalism. And on an on.

There is an army of pseudo-theologians that now study, contemplate, and meditate on God's word using Lee's overlays and they are convinced that life is about ground, pray-reading, uniformity, and "the unique ministry from the minister of the age." And their living shows it.