Arthur M. Casci Testimony

[Cal]

Details and quibbling aside, I think a real way the LCM's Christ is different is his motivations.

The LCM portrayed Christ as a deity totally interested in "his purpose" and "his expression," and who was interested in people only to the extent that they helped him accomplish his long-term goals. The LCM portrayed Christ as one who lived, suffered and died as a man not out of love to redeem, but out of determination to produce "the processed God" to in turn produce "the Church" so he could get "glory," almost like he was just showing off.

The impression one gets from the LCM Christ is not that he loves people as an end in the themselves, but that he loves them as means to an end. Thus people were devalued and made disposable. The LCM Christ is rather like the Muslim Allah, in the end a bit indifferent toward people.

This is certainly a different Christ than the biblical Christ, who died for one reason, because he didn't want to see us end up lost. For all the LCM's supposed "light" from the bible, they still missed one of the most basic verses of all, John 3:16.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The impression one gets from the LCM Christ is not that he loves people as an end in the themselves, but that he loves them as means to an end. Thus people were devalued and made disposable. The LCM Christ is rather like the Muslim Allah, in the end a bit indifferent toward people.

This is certainly a different Christ than the biblical Christ, who died for one reason, because he didn't want to see us end up lost. For all the LCM's supposed "light" from the bible, they still missed one of the most basic verses of all, John 3:16.

I think that I essentially said the same thing earlier. This "new and fresh" Christ seemingly no longer cared about the poor, the sick, the blind and the lame, and this "new and fresh" Christ seemingly didn't mind if some elevated themselves above the flock, and kept distinctions of persons to maintain "good order in the church", and this Christ seemed to overlook sin if it was among leadership, because to be scriptural we had to "cover drunken Noah", etc.

But if we're to be legalistic, who among us is without such sins, or defects? We must be broad and forgive, if we hope for God's forgiveness, in return. We must seek commonality, not differences. We must unite and not divide.

At the same time we do place value judgments on what's profitable in our spiritual journeys. We need to say "this is better than that", to some degree. The "new and fresh" processed and sevenfold intensified Christ was supposed to jet-propel us into some higher realm, whether dubbed "overcomer" or "mature" or whatnot (I remember the conference where the senior brother present asked the teen-agers if they wanted to be overcomers, or not. What were they supposed to respond!?).

And this supposedly new and better way was just the same old, same old, with a few new descriptors, many of which turned out to be recycled 19th century Sunday School lessons. Remember that song, "It may be with us you've found a better way"? In the supposed new and better way, the source was held to be the ministry of WL; it was instead WL siphoning off some of the Jesus Movement, and attaching his "new and fresh" labels.

But the difference, and any actual freshness, wasn't due to the ministry, but to the hundreds and even thousands of young seeking people. Zealous and ignorant, they were easy fodder for someone like WL.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Details and quibbling aside, I think a real way the LCM's Christ is different is his motivations.

You could see the motives when money-making opportunities arose. The "old man" of this supposedly transformed servant quickly appeared. Pecuniary interests became paramount. Profit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I think that I essentially said the same thing earlier. This "new and fresh" Christ seemingly no longer cared about the poor, the sick, the blind and the lame, and this "new and fresh" Christ seemingly didn't mind if some elevated themselves above the flock, and kept distinctions of persons to maintain "good order in the church", and this Christ seemed to overlook sin if it was among leadership, because to be scriptural we had to "cover drunken Noah", etc.

Things changed when Lee changed.

In the early days, there were lots of stories of the "downtrodden" coming to Jesus and being marvelously saved. "Blanket Fred" was one such guy who came to those early meetings with nothing more than his blanket, and he sat in the front row, unshaved, unbathed, uncultured, etc. and Lee was apparently quite fine with it. He later reveled in the opportunity to bring such to the Lord.

Compare that to today's LC work. Ole "Blanket Fred" couldn't make it past the door usher checking badges. My how Lee had changed from those early days when the Spirit was moving in America. Which was the real Lee? Hard to say, but the older Lee got, the more demands he placed on any who would attend his high-priced lectures.

Jesus, however, never changed. His ministry started with that crazy Baptizer in the wilderness, and ended with that criminal thief on the cross.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jesus, however, never changed. His ministry started with that crazy Baptizer in the wilderness, and ended with that criminal thief on the cross.

As our pastor says, that'll preach!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

As our pastor says, that'll preach!

It's been a long time since anyone agreed with something I posted!

You caught me off guard.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's been a long time since anyone agreed with something I posted! You caught me off guard.

We like to mix it up a little here, just to keep you from getting too comfortable. Seriously, though, I felt that your words were an excellent summation of the ministry of Jesus Christ. The lepers, the sick, the blind, the lame, the poor. All of these were ministered to, again and again. These were truly the "lost sheep". But the Father's love came to them through Jesus Christ, as it has to us all. Peter neatly summed up the ministry that he observed for three-plus years: "...how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil". (Acts 10:38) Jesus consistently went around doing good, and compassionately helping and healing those who couldn't repay Him. He just told them, "Give thanks to the Father, go in peace, and sin no more".

Originally Posted by Ohio

Compare that to today's LC work. Ole "Blanket Fred" couldn't make it past the door usher checking badges. My how Lee had changed from those early days when the Spirit was moving in America.

One reason that the LCs love the so-called "campus work" today is that it does the pre-screening for them. If "Blanket Fred" doesn't make it past the admissions committee and into the University of Michigan, then he doesn't get a pamphlet from LSM.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

One reason that the LCs love the so-called "campus work" today is that it does the pre-screening for them. If "Blanket Fred" doesn't make it past the admissions committee and into the University of Michigan, then he doesn't get a pamphlet from LSM.

After studying the history of the Plymouth Brethren in Great Britain in the mid-19th century, i concluded long ago that "early-Lee" in the US closely coincided with OPEN Brethren (Groves, Chapman, Muller, Craik) ideals, while "later-Lee" corresponded with Exclusive Brethren (Darby, Wigram) exclusionary precepts.

Blanket Fred was a brilliant guy. I was close to his brother for years. Once Fred decided that counter-culture became too crowded for his liking, he cleaned up and returned to the culture of his roots in wealthy suburbia, which is exactly what the LCM has done.

[Lisbon]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Things changed when Lee changed.

In the early days, there were lots of stories of the "downtrodden" coming to Jesus and being marvelously saved. "Blanket Fred" was one such guy who came to those early meetings with nothing more than his blanket, and he sat in the front row, unshaved, unbathed, uncultured, etc. and Lee was apparently quite fine with it. He later reveled in the opportunity to bring such to the Lord.

Compare that to today's LC work. Ole "Blanket Fred" couldn't make it past the door usher checking badges. My how Lee had changed from those early days when the Spirit was moving in America. Which was the real Lee? Hard to say, but the older Lee got, the more demands he placed on any who would attend his high-priced lectures.

Jesus, however, never changed. His ministry started with that crazy Baptizer in the wilderness, and ended with that criminal thief on the cross.

I, an old man, really liked that post.
Lisbon