Arthur M. Casci Testimony

[aron]

Splendid Church Life! ~ Hymn 1237

1 Splendid church life! His green garden! He has
brought us, praise the Lord,
To experience the Christ Who's growing here!
He is full of rich enjoyment to His saints in one
accord;
He is new and fresh, available and dear.

Chorus: I'm so happy in this lovely place,
In the garden growing in His grace!
There is no finer pleasure than to eat the
living tree
And to get the living water into me.

We told each other that Christ was "new and fresh" in the LCs. That is why the LCs were so attractive to so many young seeking people in the era of 1965 -1975. Christianity, i.e. everything not the LC, was presumed to be old and stale. Conversely, if it was not old and stale, but wasn't under the "ministry of the age" then it was wild and useless to God. Only the proper church life could please God by carrying out His will. So we could ignore centuries of Christian convention, and even the Bible itself if it wasn't "new and fresh" enough! Only "God's current speaking" mattered!

In the LCs Christ was "new and fresh, available and dear": turns out that Christ was so new and fresh that He no longer cared for the poor, the sick, and the hungry. "Don't waste your time", we were told. Instead, this "new and fresh" Christ was only interested in "good building material" for His Body.

And so forth. Turns out that "New and fresh" was really the same stale old package with a "new and fresh" sticker prominently emblazoned on it. It was just cheap marketing. Effective, in a way that would make PT Barnum proud, but false.

[Amcasci]

Originally Posted by aron

Splendid Church Life! ~ Hymn 1237
He is new and fresh, available and dear.

Give me Old and Stale. The old faith of the One Holy Christian Church and the stale bread of the body and blood of Christ in Holy communion.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Splendid Church Life! ~ Hymn 1237
He is new and fresh, available and dear.

Originally Posted by Amcasci

Give me Old and Stale. The old faith of the One Holy Christian Church and the stale bread of the body and blood of Christ in Holy communion.

Yer a funny guy Arthur ...

[Amcasci]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yer a funny guy Arthur ...

Thank you! I will take that as a compliment rather than sarcasm.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Amcasci

Thank you! I will take that as a compliment rather than sarcasm.

Good.

Luk_6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

We told each other that Christ was "new and fresh" in the LCs. That is why the LCs were so attractive to so many young seeking people in the era of 1965 -1975. Christianity, i.e. everything not the LC, was presumed to be old and stale. Conversely, if it was not old and stale, but wasn't under the "ministry of the age" then it was wild and useless to God. Only the proper church life could please God by carrying out His will. So we could ignore centuries of Christian convention, and even the Bible itself if it wasn't "new and fresh" enough! Only "God's current speaking" mattered!

In the LCs Christ was "new and fresh, available and dear": turns out that Christ was so new and fresh that He no longer cared for the poor, the sick, and the hungry. "Don't waste your time", we were told. Instead, this "new and fresh" Christ was only interested in "good building material" for His Body.

And so forth. Turns out that "New and fresh" was really the same stale old package with a "new and fresh" sticker prominently emblazoned on it. It was just cheap marketing. Effective, in a way that would make PT Barnum proud, but false.

During my first contact with the church in Cleveland, the meeting was definitely "new and fresh," and Christ definitely was "available and dear," which was totally in contrast to the catholic church I grew up in. I saw lots of "the poor, the sick, and the hungry" pass thru our doors, and get cared for by the saints. There was an incredible diversity in the church there -- black, white, asian, rich, poor, brilliant, and simple minds -- all loving Jesus, the common denominator which brought them all together.

Things changed. For the worse.

What caused the deterioration? Not the personal problems of the members. It was demands made by totalitarian leaders from Anaheim and/or Cleveland upon local leaders. They went from servant leaders to controlling abusive rulers. This forum is filled with their stories. Many of which I have told over the years.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

During my first contact with the church in Cleveland, the meeting was definitely "new and fresh," and Christ definitely was "available and dear," which was totally in contrast to the catholic church I grew up in. I saw lots of "the poor, the sick, and the hungry" pass thru our doors, and get cared for by the saints. There was an incredible diversity in the church there -- black, white, asian, rich, poor, brilliant, and simple minds -- all loving Jesus, the common denominator which brought them all together.

Things changed. For the worse.

What caused the deterioration? Not the personal problems of the members. It was demands made by totalitarian leaders from Anaheim and/or Cleveland upon local leaders. They went from servant leaders to controlling abusive rulers. This forum is filled with their stories. Many of which I have told over the years.

I've shared on the deterioration which I observed, as well. WL arguing interminably with someone called the Bible Answer Man over the Holy Trinity. The 'Serving Ones' coming from Anaheim and declaring that we all needed to be vital. The FTTA trainer telling us, "Don't waste your time" with the poor. In Anaheim, the training attendees posing beside WL's chair on the podium, like it was a tourist attraction. The book Fementation of the Present Rebellion, full of shocking and offensive characterizations of "the rebels". Any pretense of charity, long suffering, and magnanimity had long since vanished under the strain of combat.

But where did this idea come from, that God needs to be new? When did God get old, anyway? We, on the other hand, certainly need to become new. We need to be born again, to enter the kingdom. We all know this. We have to be like little children, to see God, and we need to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. And we read where the One on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Fine, no problem conceptually, but where did the idea of a "new Christ" come in? Maybe we were just shouting too much and misapplied the pronouns, and WL wanting all things (including God) to be "new" let it slide. Or maybe he pushed it. But based on what?

Is there any basis for the "new and fresh" Christ being bandied about in our hymns? As compared to what, pray tell? Certainly we loved the idea. But where did this new and fresh Christ come from?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

Is there any basis for the "new and fresh" Christ being bandied about in our hymns? As compared to what, pray tell? Certainly we loved the idea. But where did this new and fresh Christ come from?

I will never hear the end of it. "There goes OBW again."

But "fresh and new" is appealing. But it is not promised. There is the verse that is included in a popular chorus that says "His mercies never come to an end . . . they are new every morning." But is "new" necessarily "bubbly" or outwardly "joyous"? Our living and responding to Christ/God/the Father/the Spirit should be new each day. But that does not mean bubbly or "fresh." It means current.

Like manna. Manna was old stuff. They ate it every day. ("Every day we say our prayer, with they change the bill of fare, all we ever get is gruel") They got upset about it because it was the same every day. But yesterday's manna was useless. You had to get new manna each day. After a while, it became "second verse, same as the first." Yet today's manna was not yesterday's manna despite the sameness of it.

Not too exciting or "fresh." Or was it? Maybe it was just as fresh as was needed. A new batch of the same stuff we had yesterday. And on and on for 40 years. Yes, manna gave way to variety when they got to plant their own crops. Wheat, barley, oats. And have more livestock. Goats, cattle, pigs (oops, no pigs) sheep, chickens (??). Given the vast food industry there, I bet they never ate the same thing more than once a . . . month. No maybe week. No maybe more like every couple or three days.

But we like new and fresh and think that those who are getting their "same" new every day are pathetic, or at least not joyous, or not "experiencing Christ" (at least not enough).

We still critique Christianity on Lee's terms and may not want the old stuff back as bad as Indiana does, but still somewhat.

[Amcasci]

A very fine resource that acts as a strong antidote to "New and fresh" is a little book titled "Ordinary" written by Michael Horton. The obsession with the "new and fresh" or "the next big thing" blinds one to the ordinary and obvious work of Christ that is ours each day. Our Lord has chosen to communicate His grace and mercy to us through "ordinary" means...preaching, baptism, holy communion, the mutual consolation of the brethren. When these are set aside for "praise bands", "O Lord Jesus" shouting, church growth techniques, etc.,we quickly become hounds chasing the wind and missing the great feast that Christ has plainly put before us. A simple sermon that properly distinguishes between Law and Gospel, a daily remembrance of baptism and faithful reception of the Lord's Supper...these are the tools that make us grow in godliness and not cranking up our emotions and craving novelty.

The only "movement" that has my attention these days is moving myself from my bed to the Divine Service where I hear the good news of forgiveness in Gospel preaching and receive the good news of forgiveness in the Body and Blood of Christ given to me in the Bread and Wine of Holy Communion.

Let me also add that at my ripe age I finally figured out that each day of my life is a miniature of my entire life. I rise in the morning, remember my baptism, present my body to Him, ask the Holy Spirit to enable me to serve my neighbor, give thanks for the day's bread both physical and spiritual and at the end of the day, I thank Him for the gifts, confess the sins of the day, receive absolution and put my head on the pillow and my sleep is a rehearsal for my rest in the grave. There you have my whole life in sum lived out each day. "Teach me to live so that I may fear the grave as little as my bed". (All Praise to Thee My God This Night).

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Amcasci

The obsession with the "new and fresh" or "the next big thing" blinds one to the ordinary and obvious work of Christ that is ours each day.

I can say "amen" to that. It seems to me that even so much of the rhetoric I get outside the LCM is linked to being something in the kingdom. If you don't at least go on a short-term mission trip you are spiritually deficient. Spiritual life is about religious things. And so on. We are constantly taught that not being engaged in these outwardly religious activities is the equivalent of falling away. The "task" of living normal lives according to Christ is not given much press, yet it would seem that it is one of the primary ways that Christians outside of "leadership" express their faith.

And I note that when I point this way, there is generally someone who decides that I am just grumpy rather than realizing that we don't have to be fresh, joyous, and bubbly to be everything that we are intended to be. Or that I am just picking on the LCM. Surely they are in there. But they are not alone.

[Amcasci]

Originally Posted by OBW

I can say "amen" to that. It seems to me that even so much of the rhetoric I get outside the LCM is linked to being something in the kingdom. If you don't at least go on a short-term mission trip you are spiritually deficient. Spiritual life is about religious things. And so on. We are constantly taught that not being engaged in these outwardly religious activities is the equivalent of falling away. The "task" of living normal lives according to Christ is not given much press, yet it would seem that it is one of the primary ways that Christians outside of "leadership" express their faith.

And I note that when I point this way, there is generally someone who decides that I am just grumpy rather than realizing that we don't have to be fresh, joyous, and bubbly to be everything that we are intended to be. Or that I am just picking on the LCM. Surely they are in there. But they are not alone.

OBW...you got it. It is not just in the LC gatherings. It is a deep sickness in American Evangelicalism that we have to be doing the big thing. I like the statement, "James and John wanted to rule; Jesus wanted someone to wash the dishes!" Husbands love your wives, do whatever you do as unto the Lord with thanksgiving, children obey your parents and on it goes. Look at the "vocation" sections of Ephesians and Colossians and the list of vocations is very ordinary. Very few are called to be the Bible translator, etc. Most of us are people who go to work day after day and thus serve our Lord and our neighbor.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

God got "real old" in the temple. So old, in fact, that Jesus went in to liven that place up by flipping tables. Apparently He did that twice, maybe more.

God was also "real old" in the Catholic church I grew up in. I was devoted too. Named after my uncle O.F.M., baptized on the eighth day, 12 years parochial education, 6 years of Latin, first holy communion, confession, altar boy who knew both Latin and English, Sunday choir, yada, yada. Never once did I hear about being born again, seeing His kingdom, God becoming real to me, etc.

I understand your point. When we are young we perceive the options of sin's fleeting pleasures versus the dullness of religious ritual. So when "new and fresh" comes along, where we can "enjoy God", why not? But my warning is that when we are young and lack discernment, the idea of a new and fresh God can be a cover for a different Christ (cf 2 Cor 2:11). Amcasci in his introductory essay which I copied from the web, mentioned this. The lack of discernment makes us easy marks for re-branding a "different Christ" into a "new and fresh Christ", which the Madison Avenue types would be envious of. So we need to beware.

That doesn't mean all our experiences were null and void. But we need discernment. We should preach discernment and not just zeal. Amcasci's title was "Zealous and misled" and if that could sum up a movement it probably does.

Originally Posted by Amcasci

The obsession with the "new and fresh" or "the next big thing" blinds one to the ordinary and obvious work of Christ that is ours each day. Our Lord has chosen to communicate His grace and mercy to us through "ordinary" means...preaching, baptism, holy communion, the mutual consolation of the brethren. When these are set aside for "praise bands", "O Lord Jesus" shouting, church growth techniques, etc.,we quickly become hounds chasing the wind and missing the great feast that Christ has plainly put before us.

I believe that that phraseology wasn't in the songs unless WL spoke it repeatedly from the podium. But how much did his obsession with the new, and our acqueiscence, allow us to be buffeted by strange winds? Various "moves" and "flows" were always coming along, with little fruit but much discouragement.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[aron]

Here's the song I was thinking of earlier:

1. O Lord since time began
You've had one aim, one goal.
Your purpose will and plan
Is centered 'round all man.

New, new, new, Your goal is so new.
Take us Lord possess us to be channels for You.

2. You love to call the young
To carry out Your move,
To leave the old behind,
To have a change in mind.

New, new, new, Your move is so new,
We will be the people with this age-turning view.

3. Don't let us settle down,
Be occupied or set.
But living, open, new,
Fresh, empty, young in You!

New, new, new, Your life is so new,
You're the living One we wholly give ourselves to.

4. You long that Christ Himself,
Be known and realized,
Experienced, expressed,
In a full and living way.

New, new, new, our Christ is so new,
We are here for nothing on this earth but for You.

So two things come to mind:

First is when did Christ become so old, that He had to become so new?
Second, if this "new Christ" doesn't care about the poor, the sick, and the weak then He is probably a "different Christ" that Paul was warning us about. If this was a Christ where we said to the rich man "You sit here" and to the poor man, "You sit over there, under my footstool", then this was a different Christ that (James 2:1-4) warned us about. If this was a new Christ where we elevated men and made distinctions among ourselves, and then ignored righteousness when our elevated men (our "Moses" and "Noah") were found to be with feet of clay like the rest, what kind of Christ is this? All the excitement and shouting cannot cover a lack of discernment.

Just some things to think about. I'm not trying to present anything definitive here. Just thinking aloud. Asking questions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The lack of discernment makes us easy marks for re-branding a "different Christ" into a "new and fresh Christ", which the Madison Avenue types would be envious of. So we need to beware.

That doesn't mean all our experiences were null and void. But we need discernment. We should preach discernment and not just zeal.

You make good points, but remember that our so-called "lack of discernment" is what allowed my heart to be open to the Lord in the first place, and enabled the Spirit of reality to guide me to new places which I had never before even imagined. Hence, it's no wonder that nearly 90% of those who have confessed to be born of the Spirit were actually too young to legally drink when they believed.

Witness Lee pulled a "bait and switch" in the LRM. Initially he brought us back to examine the scriptures for what they really said. Yes, indeed, this part of his ministry was mixed with leaven, but compared to his latter ministry, was far superior. Towards the end, however, his "interpreted" word had, for all intents and purposes, superseded God's own word. Thus our own spiritual discernment was hijacked by Anaheim. Fortunately for those of us in the GLA, we did have a counterbalance to most of Anaheim's craziness.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I will never hear the end of it. "There goes OBW again."

We still critique Christianity on Lee's terms and may not want the old stuff back as bad as Indiana does, but still somewhat.

Please speak for yourself. At least I can read Indiana's informative writings, your's however are more un-new, un-fresh, un-bubbly, and more critical than Lee ever was.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

But where did this idea come from, that God needs to be new? When did God get old, anyway?

We, on the other hand, certainly need to become new. We need to be born again, to enter the kingdom.

God got "real old" in the temple. So old, in fact, that Jesus went in to liven that place up by flipping tables. Apparently He did that twice, maybe more.

God was also "real old" in the Catholic church I grew up in. I was devoted too. Named after my uncle O.F.M., baptized on the eighth day, 12 years parochial education, 6 years of Latin, first holy communion, confession, altar boy who knew both Latin and English, Sunday choir, yada, yada. Never once did I hear about being born again, seeing His kingdom, God becoming real to me, etc.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

God got "real old" in the temple. So old, in fact, that Jesus went in to liven that place up by flipping tables. Apparently He did that twice, maybe more.

Within the last 30 years or so, history has shown Living Stream Ministry full time employees don't take kindly to brothers figuratively overturning the tables.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Within the last 30 years or so, history has shown Living Stream Ministry full time employees don't take kindly to brothers figuratively overturning the tables.

They also "killed" the prophets God sent to them.