The Psalms are the word of Christ

[aron]

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Outside of the LSM system. Once you allow for a post-Lee ministry, this can happen. There are also local compilations and sometimes regional ones. But I doubt there can be a new hymnal like the one published by LSM.

This is an effect of the "One trumpet" edict: no new voices can rise, and we all must now repeat the deceased oracle's speaking. The Blendeds by this, made themselves curators of a museum.

So, what is the difference between Mary Baker Eddy, Witness Lee, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, Brigham Young, Sun Myung Moon, Ellen G. White, David Koresh, and Haile Selassie, to name but a few? In the words of RK, "Absolutely nothing"! Each of these was apparently a chosen vessel, God's man (or woman) of the hour. No one else could receive revelation, or minister God's words, apart from God's present oracle. The Bible said that none could come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, and now, according to these self-claimed "special vessels", none could get access to Jesus Christ except through them. So if you had a "gift" for God and it wasn't brought into "submission" below these oracles of God, you were wasting your time. God is only interested in one thing on Earth today and, according to WN, you'd better get in line. Know who's in front of you and obey without question.

[InOmnibusCaritas]

Originally Posted by aron

This is an effect of the "One trumpet" edict: no new voices can rise, and we all must now repeat the deceased oracle's speaking. The Blendeds by this, made themselves curators of a museum.

Yes, exactly! "One publication" was the main trigger for my departure from LC because I realised that it was beyond reformation.

Originally Posted by aron

So, what is the difference between Mary Baker Eddy, Witness Lee, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones, Brigham Young, Sun Myung Moon, Ellen G. White, David Koresh, and Haile Selassie, to name but a few? In the words of RK, "Absolutely nothing"!

Um... this I cannot agree. LC is an exclusive Christian sect but not a cult.

Originally Posted by aron

So if you had a "gift" for God and it wasn't brought into "submission" below these oracles of God, you were wasting your time. God is only interested in one thing on Earth today and, according to WN, you'd better get in line. Know who's in front of you and obey without question.

Yes, the doctrine of MotA is extremely damaging. LSM likes to argue by marshalling test cases from OT. I don't even have to argue this from an NT perspective. Jeremiah and Ezekiel ministered at the same time, the former in Jerusalem, the latter in Babylon.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Yes, exactly! "One publication" was the main trigger for my departure from LC because I realised that it was beyond reformation.

In the name of "oneness," anaheim attempted to bring every LC under subjection. My departure was finalized with the realization that LSM was becoming no different than the RCC which i had grown up in.

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Um... this I cannot agree. LC is an exclusive Christian sect but not a cult.

I have been saying this for years. Unfortuately we are the minority here.

[VoiceInWilderness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Quote:
Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas
Um... this I cannot agree. LC is an exclusive Christian sect but not a cult.

I have been saying this for years. Unfortuately we are the minority here.

I agree with the 2 of you.

I'd like to know what AMCasci thinks about this.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Um... this I cannot agree. LC is an exclusive Christian sect but not a cult.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have been saying this for years. Unfortuately we are the minority here.

Minority here? Has there been some survey that I'm not aware of? Actually the vast majority of LCD members would not use the term "cult" to apply to the Local Church. But what do I know, I'm just the dummy who reads every post!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

I agree with the 2 of you.

I'd like to know what AMCasci thinks about this.

And then there were three ...

....................................

Anybody else like stand up and be counted?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And then there were three ...

....................................

Anybody else like stand up and be counted? awareness, how about you?

Did somebody mention cult? I'll be the voice of cult out here.

The local church is not a cult like Jim Jones, or Heaven's Gate. Nobody is gonna drink poison Kool-Aid, or commit suicide expecting a spaceship to pick them up.

The local church is a cult because they usurp the mind. In fact, they are proud of being out of their mind.

And they are a cult of the personality type, a personality cult, because, they devote their life to following one man; their MOTA.

The problem of calling the local church a cult is that they are basically an evangelical Christian movement. So calling them a cult brands by extension evangelicalism a cult.

Why do you think CRI came out with "We Were Wrong? They didn't want to also be branded a cult ... which they are ... them and Hank, The Bible Answer Man. He's been constantly hitting me up for money in email for years now. And was prolly paid off by the local church cult to withdraw their claim that the local church is a cult.
http://www.equip.org/PDF/EnglishOpt.pdf

You boys, and gals, from the mid-west were buffered by Titus Chu. So I understand why you don't think the local church is a cult. But praise be to the Lord, ya'all were quarantined by that cult. That should tell you something about LSM. Stop cutting them slack.

Say it loud. Say it proud : LSM is a cult.

[InOmnibusCaritas]

Originally Posted by awareness

Did somebody mention cult? I'll be the voice of cult out here.

The local church is not a cult like Jim Jones, or Heaven's Gate. Nobody is gonna drink poison Kool-Aid, or commit suicide expecting a spaceship to pick them up.

The local church is a cult because they usurp the mind. In fact, they are proud of being out of their mind.

And they are a cult of the personality type, a personality cult, because, they devote their life to following one man; their MOTA.

The problem of calling the local church a cult is that they are basically an evangelical Christian movement. So calling them a cult brands by extension evangelicalism a cult.

Why do you think CRI came out with "We Were Wrong? They didn't want to also be branded a cult ... which they are ... them and Hank, The Bible Answer Man. He's been constantly hitting me up for money in email for years now. And was prolly paid off by the local church cult to withdraw their claim that the local church is a cult.
http://www.equip.org/PDF/EnglishOpt.pdf

You boys, and gals, from the mid-west were buffered by Titus Chu. So I understand why you don't think the local church is a cult. But praise be to the Lord, ya'all were quarantined by that cult. That should tell you something about LSM. Stop cutting them slack.

Say it loud. Say it proud : LSM is a cult.

I hope that we will stick to Psalms on this thread. There are way more threads in these forums on whether LC is a cult. The bit about evangelicalism is very bizarre though. I'm also not comfortable with the unChristian allegations that LC paid off Hank and CRI (or Fuller Theological Seminary).

At any rate, I want to listen more about Psalms.

[aron]

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

LC is an exclusive Christian sect but not a cult.

I won't argue with your point. Nonetheless the LC obsessively and excessively honors its founders Nee and Lee, such that it shades into the gray area of de facto "cultic" if not de jure "cult". It's an exclusive Christian sect which could be mistaken for a cult, and often is. And look how far the apple had to fall from the tree to produce a full-blown cult with the Shouter sect on mainland China, who allegedly do regard WL as Christ Himself, God become flesh. Not far at all, in fact; it didn't take much to get from "I'm a God-man" and "I'm a Baby God" and "WL was Acting God (or, Deputy Authority, Number Four, God's Oracle, MotA)" to treating him as deity incarnate.

Of course there's variance in the historical characters whom I cited. But there's also a theme, that of elevating individuals as the center and focus of a religious group; likewise the LC seems like a personality cult with a small "c". Arguably this also happens in politics, in sports, in entertainment and the arts, and too often in religious life as well. Perhaps the LC didn't cross the line, but they moved too close.

Back to the topic at hand:

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

So we need to find out what is the underlying reason for WL's view of the Psalter. The root cause, I believe, is WL's misunderstanding of the word "law" in Psalm 1. The LXX translated the original Hebrew term "torah" as "nomos" (law) and this term got into Pauline literature as well. Unfortunately, "nomos" flattened the meaning of the word "torah" to just judicial regulations. Hence, WL equated the "law" in Psalm 1 to the Ten Commandments.

The fuller meaning of "torah" is "teaching". The Pentateuch is the Torah - the teachings of God. All the narratives in the Torah: creation, human sin, God's promise of redemption, the Abrahamic covenant, the exodus, the Decalogue, etc., are all "torah". They are God's teaching. The compilers organized the Psalter into 5 books to invite the readers to consider meditating upon these Psalms as equivalent to meditating upon the Torah...

The prevailing compilation theory held among scholars today (especially since Gerald H. Wilson's groundbreaking work - e.g., "The Editing of the Book of Psalms") is that Psalm 1 is added to the Psalter in the last redaction cycle by its final editors called the "Wisdom Editors". Psalm 1 was not meant to be a psalm by itself but rather served as an introduction or preface written by the editors to encourage the readers to meditate upon these other 149 Psalms day and night. Thus, to hold a low view of Psalm 1, understood in its original context, is to hold a low view of the entire Psalter.

I also see Psalm 1 being a kind of thematic overview of the texts that follow. And WL had a flattened view of the law, to be sure. I argue that he was entirely swayed by Luther's reaction to the RCC and the subsequent recovery of justification by faith. But in WL's hands that became a bulldozer, pushing the text into a Protestant and post-Protestant thought-world. Now, we all filter the word through our various cultural lenses to some extent, so I don't fault him there. But my lens is different: I see "law" as something not merely opposed to and subsumed by "grace" (as in the Lutheran treatment of Paul's epistles).

Rather I see God's word as eternal, and pure. It is not God's fault that we could not keep it. What were the pious Jews supposed to do but say, "Amen, LORD, we will keep your word?" And my interpretive lens is this: In the NT I see Peter in Acts 2, saying that while David indeed failed in keeping the utterance, he being a prophet foreknew that his coming Seed would not fail. Also in the NT I see the writer to the Hebrews quoting a long string of OT texts, prominently featuring psalms, and then saying "We see Jesus" (2:9). So there's an open invitation for us (the royal "we") to search the OT for Jesus. And what do I see in Psalm 1? A person who loves the word of the LORD, who meditates on it day and night, and who is blessed thereby. This is clearly contrasted with those who do not (the wicked).

Well, to me the Christian testimony is that we the wicked see this Righteous One and live. This is grace, that God sent His Son to save sinners, of whom I am indeed one. We the failed sinners see Jesus and believe, and live.

Now, we come to Psalm 2, with the installation of the victorious king, etc. These first two Psalms are not diametrically opposed, as WL thought. He said the first Psalm was vanity, being unattainable - just "kiss the Son" in Psalm 2, he said, and experience God's grace. No, the reason Jesus is enthroned in Psalm 2 is because He kept the word of Psalm 1. He did not overturn the word of God but fulfilled it. We the disobedient bow before the Obedient One. We acknowledge Him as King of all, as the designated Son of God. Yes God loves us, but He in love sent the Obedient One to die for we who were disobedient. This is love, that while we were yet sinners Christ Jesus died for us. The Blessed One who fulfilled Psalm 1 laid down His life for we who were accursed, who couldn't keep the word; we now see this One and live. We acknowledge Him as God's installed King, come under His righteous rule, and share His blessing. The promises of God to the Faithful and Obedient One ("He believed God, now let Him come and save Him" [Matt 27:43] and "My God in whom I trust; I will not be ashamed" [Psa 25:2]) now are available to all who by this same spirit of faith see Him.

[HERn]

I think the entire bible, even the Psalms were meant to be read and valued. Here's a quote from Rick Warren on the Psalms.

"To instruct us in candid honesty, God gave us the book of Psalms--a worship manual, full of ranting, doubts, fears, resentments, and deep passions combined with thanksgiving, praise, and statements of faith. Every possible emotion is catalogued in the Psalms. When you read the emotional confessions of David and others, realize this is how God wants you to worship Him---holding back nothing of what you feel."

Dear brothers and sisters in the lords recovery, please tell me, who is this Lee that sniffs at the Psalms? Both Jesus and Paul valued the Psalms!

[InOmnibusCaritas]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think the entire bible, even the Psalms were meant to be read and valued. Here's a quote from Rick Warren on the Psalms.

"To instruct us in candid honesty, God gave us the book of Psalms--a worship manual, full of ranting, doubts, fears, resentments, and deep passions combined with thanksgiving, praise, and statements of faith. Every possible emotion is catalogued in the Psalms. When you read the emotional confessions of David and others, realize this is how God wants you to worship Him---holding back nothing of what you feel."

Dear brothers and sisters in the lords recovery, please tell me, who is this Lee that sniffs at the Psalms? Both Jesus and Paul valued the Psalms!

Lee doesn't devalue all the Psalms -- those that were quoted in the NT gets the thumbs up.

[aron]

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Lee doesn't devalue all the Psalms -- those that were quoted in the NT gets the thumbs up.

Even some of them didn't pass muster with Lee. Peter's citation of Psalm 34 in 1 Peter chapter 3 got a thumbs down. Not high enough, according to the so-called vision of the age.

And what really irks me about Lee's coverage of the Psalms was his stubborn refusal to see spiritual types in the physical portrayals. So when the psalmist prayed for calumny to his foes, for example, that God would smite the oppressors and turn them back to darkness, Lee simply said, "We shouldn't curse others but bless them." Oh really - was David supposed to bless Goliath? Was Samuel supposed to bless Agag? This is a complete misreading of the OT narrative, in my view. And in the NT, did Jesus bless the demons and unclean spirits, and pat them on their soft, fuzzy little heads? The often bloody and violent world of the OT can be seen as a type of the daily struggle we face. We Jesus-confessors are trying to stay connected to the path home to our Father, and we're violently opposed at every turn. And many of the worst enemies are close at hand; some are within!

Matthew 26:40-42 "And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour? "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."

Our struggles of faith occasionally do involve threats of physical harm. I know in some places that is reality and don't want to dismiss it. But nonetheless the struggle to overcome opposition is real for all of us. Look at what happened to the disciples. They tried to "watch and pray" for one hour, but were overcome. And Paul clearly wrote, "We don't struggle against flesh and blood but spiritual forces", but Lee simply ignored this spiritual dynamic when in the Psalms. "Nope", he said. "These guys wished harm on others; that's not Christian. We can safely ignore this text. On to the next, to the 'high peak revelations' located elsewhere in the Bible."

Interestingly to me, Psalm 119 offers a vivid picture of one struggling to stay connected to spiritual reality. The protagonist continually tries to keep his/her face toward God, and constantly meets opposition, but the narrative is stylized, or generalized, to include spiritual pursuit, and spiritual opposition. "The wicked are waiting to destroy me/but I have pondered all your precepts" (v.95). The "violent opposition" in Psalm 119 is to someone trying to pray! Incredible! What a vivid portrayal of what Jesus presented to Peter et al in Matthew 26! I don't have my RecV in front of me & can't review Lee's textual treatment here, but still the larger point remains of the spiritual struggle to overcome deadness, weakness, greed, dormancy, confusion, shame, dullness, tiredness (can I stop now?) and so forth is repeatedly and clearly laid before us by the seeking one in the OT. It is not vain. Sorry, I just can't see the word of God pushed into an exegetical hole like that. No. I simply refuse this speaking.

[Amcasci]

"And what really irks me about Lee's coverage of the Psalms was his stubborn refusal to see spiritual types in the physical portrayals. So when the psalmist prayed for calumny to his foes, for example, that God would smite the oppressors and turn them back to darkness, Lee simply said, "We shouldn't curse others but bless them." Oh really - was David supposed to bless Goliath? Was Samuel supposed to bless Agag? "

Here is where we need to distinguish between the two kingdoms, the right hand Kingdom being the Gospel/Church and the left hand being Government. The Lord has established both and both have their place. So, King David and Samuel are acting in the Left hand kingdom and the task of the left hand Kingdom is to punish evil and promote good (Romans 13).

Not only so but one of the beauties of the Psalms is that they bring out the whole range of human emotion that we are all susceptible to. We are yet sinners and sinners do have outbreaks of anger, lust, greed and all. We pour out our hearts to the Lord but then we ask forgiveness for those sins. Praying the Psalms is a much needed exercise for all saints of Christ.

[VoiceInWilderness]

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Lee doesn't devalue all the Psalms -- those that were quoted in the NT gets the thumbs up.

That was the case in the book "Christ and the Church in the Psalms".
But in his old age, WL gave ministry messages on the Psalms, and he even trashed the parts of Psalm 34 which were quoted by Peter, as pointed out by Aron.