Post-Recovery: A Testimony

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

While I deeply appreciate your Biblical exegesis of "church" and "churches" I can't help, when stepping back and taking an objective look, at this notion that: "we've got to get the church back to its early pre-tainted-Acts days" it looks ever more Cargo Cultish. It's reverse engineering the church hoping to bring "the cargo," or in this case, God's blessings. But who said this is so? Where is it said in the Bible for us to do that today, in order to get Gods' blessings? Does God really care about the ground of the assembly? Wouldn't God care more about the assembly itself, regardless of what dirt they stood on?

I agree. And the fact is we really don't know what church and church life was like back then, and we are kidding ourselves if we think we do. We can draw general principles from the Bible record, but we are foolish to try to recreate something of which we have so little genuine knowledge.

I generally get frustrated with people who say we need to do it like they did it "back then." A variation of this are those who report how great the church is "over there" in some other, usually less-privileged, country. It's always about how we don't stack up against someone who isn't here. Well, dang it, let them come here and do what they supposedly did "back then" or are doing "over there" and then we can talk.

All we can do is try to have the best Christian and church life right where we are. Comparing ourselves to other times, places and cultures is a wild goose chase.

[Freedom]

Welcome InOmnibusCaritas! When I read your testimony, I didn't really know what to say at first. It sounds like you been through a lot to get to where you are now. I can relate to you in some ways as I am not too far removed in age from you.

I grew up in the LC, and I also had non-LC Christian friends. Though I didn't realize it at the time, it had a big effect on me. Christians outside the LC don't understand the LC, and inevitably ask questions. This forced me even from a young age to try to understand LC teachings, if for no other reason than to be able to defend things that people might find questionable.

With those I grew up in the LC, however, it seems like the predominant attitude was that they were just along for the ride. Their parents wanted them there, so they were there. Some dropped out by the time they were adults, others went on to attend the FTT. I didn't attend the training despite being fairly zealous for the ministry early on in my life. As time went by, things started bothering me more and more. Others my age were just getting more involved in the LC as I was beginning to question things.

[InOmnibusCaritas]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Welcome InOmnibusCaritas! When I read your testimony, I didn't really know what to say at first. It sounds like you been through a lot to get to where you are now. I can relate to you in some ways as I am not too far removed in age from you.

I grew up in the LC, and I also had non-LC Christian friends. Though I didn't realize it at the time, it had a big effect on me. Christians outside the LC don't understand the LC, and inevitably ask questions. This forced me even from a young age to try to understand LC teachings, if for no other reason than to be able to defend things that people might find questionable.

With those I grew up in the LC, however, it seems like the predominant attitude was that they were just along for the ride. Their parents wanted them there, so they were there. Some dropped out by the time they were adults, others went on to attend the FTT. I didn't attend the training despite being fairly zealous for the ministry early on in my life. As time went by, things started bothering me more and more. Others my age were just getting more involved in the LC as I was beginning to question things.

It was indeed very hard to come out from LC. I'd built my entire social identity around the LC. Everyone I knew before 2006 were from LCs. To maintain my convictions will mean the loss of personal identity, community, family, and even romantic relationship. All these for "one publication"? Who is Titus Chu anyway? I'd not heard him speak nor read his books. Where is Cleveland on a map?

Oh the sleepless nights. The greatest worry of them all was this: WHAT IF I AM WRONG?? 1000 YEARS OF OUTER DARKNESS, ANYONE??

So I think we need to come up with a strategy on how to help others make the exodus instead of enraging them just because we need to vent our anger (I know, we are all angry). How do we show them love?

[aron]

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Oh the sleepless nights. The greatest worry of them all was this: WHAT IF I AM WRONG?? 1000 YEARS OF OUTER DARKNESS, ANYONE??

Fear is certainly a stronghold. It's probably the flip side of pleasing people (e.g. 1 Thess 2:4, Gal 1:10). You always have the risk of displeasing people. And then they convince you that since they are the surrogate God ("deputy authority"), if you run afoul of them God will punish you horribly.

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

So I think we need to come up with a strategy on how to help others make the exodus instead of enraging them just because we need to vent our anger (I know, we are all angry). How do we show them love?

Certainly there is an angry streak in my writing. I can tell. So I try to acknowledge it, and apologize, and bear with others in their occasional anger as well.

One thing that removed me from anger was when I began to get perspective. That came with time. I began to see patterns. This brought some objectivity. (Stress the word "some").

Here is an example: Captivity. Big subject. The OT, with The Babylonian Incursion circa 7th century BC, formed the backdrop for books like Daniel, Ezekiel, Lamentations, Jeremiah. And the visions of God's restored promises were seen. In Ezekiel 40-48, for example, the Restored City and Temple were held up to the people to inspire and encourage and strengthen them. Then, I noticed a similar theme at the end of the Bible. John, in captivity, sees a vision of the New Jerusalem, and sends it to the Seven Churches in Asia, who are also arguably in captivity. Not just political (Rome obviously) but also spiritual darkness sits upon them. You have a prophet, in captivity, writing to those in captivity, and holding forth promise to the faithful ones. If you endure God will rescue you.

Here was my possible insight: with the Boxer rebellion of the late 19th & early 20th centuries, there was a backdrop of seething political resentment in China driving the rise of the Little Flock movement. The "foreign devils" were imposing Western ecclesiastical models upon the Chinese, and Nee's proposed indigenous church was at least partly a response. Likewise, in the NT, Jesus was seen as a political figure to rescue the Jews from the hated Idumean Herod and the Roman Caesars. When Philip told Nathaniel, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph", he was probably thinking in political terms. Look at Acts 1:6 -- Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” and the cries when Jesus entered Jerusalem (Mark 1:10) "Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David; Hosanna in the highest!"

As I saw patterns emerge and thereby gain perspective, I (hopefully) could step away from my own unresolved issues and not displace my anger on others. Perhaps I fixate on the oppression of others, because I'm unwilling to look at my own slavery to fear. Little by little, over time, I began to get some perspective. And I shared those perspectives not so much to persuade others but because I needed to hear myself think. And hopefully if I do that others will be encouraged to think, as well. Fear keeps us from thinking: we just react automatically: in anger (hysteria), or we're immobilized by the shock of overwhelming trauma (1000 years in darkness! All is lost!).

I guess my point is that if you just react to the oppression of others (Babylonian/Roman captivity, Western imperialism, Witness Lee the snake oil salesman), you remain stuck. You don't see what God sees, only what you see. And your actions are merely the reactions of your own fallen soul, perhaps dressed up with a few verses. We need to go beyond that. It is time.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

One thing that removed me from anger was when I began to get perspective. Here is an example: Captivity. Big subject.

What helped me get delivered from the fear imprisoning me in the LC was seeing others who were abused, get up and leave without divine repercussions, and then prosper in their walk with the Lord.

Being distant from Anaheim, and close to the regional center in Cleveland, I watched literally dozens of dear brothers over the years getting beat up by Titus Chu and then depart. They loved the Lord, the loved the church, they loved the saints, yet they had only one problem -- Titus Chu. Hence they departed. He was effectively the "acting god" in the region -- each of us served at his pleasure and left with his displeasure.

During the lead up to the quarantine, I learned that this system of abuse was systemic to the program -- all justified by the supposed rebukes of some British missionary sister to Watchman Nee. I could make a case that it never was the teachings that separated us from Christianity, but that pitiful practice of abuse. Only in that environment could a teaching like deputy authority flourish.

M.E.Barber abused Nee, who abused other workers like Lee, who regularly abused junior workers like Chu, who abused workers and elders in the GLA, who abused deacons like me, who went home and abused their wives and kids. Not always, and not with everyone, but enough for a dimwit like myself to finally take notice -- my long cherished church had a bad habit of turning beloved brothers into berating bullies.

Something was wrong with us. We just didn't know how to get along with people. I needed to get out.

[InOmnibusCaritas]

Yes, brother Aron and brother Ohio, it is time we go beyond venting our anger.

I'm planning to write a how-to book for LSMers who want out. John Myer's book was for congregations moving out of the system but this one is for individuals.

At the same time, I want to write some scholarly papers on Leeism - mainly in the area of exegesis and hermeneutics. Definitely shorter than the ones written by Nigel Tomes and perhaps less combative in tone. I want to reach out to LSMers who are asking questions.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Yes, brother Aron and brother Ohio, it is time we go beyond venting our anger.

I'm planning to write a how-to book for LSMers who want out. John Myer's book was for congregations moving out of the system but this one is for individuals.

At the same time, I want to write some scholarly papers on Leeism - mainly in the area of exegesis and hermeneutics. Definitely shorter than the ones written by Nigel Tomes and perhaps less combative in tone. I want to reach out to LSMers who are asking questions.

I commend that. Look through all the threads here. There are several specifically about advice for those leaving.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

Yes, brother Aron and brother Ohio, it is time we go beyond venting our anger.

I'm planning to write a how-to book for LSMers who want out. John Myer's book was for congregations moving out of the system but this one is for individuals.

At the same time, I want to write some scholarly papers on Leeism - mainly in the area of exegesis and hermeneutics. Definitely shorter than the ones written by Nigel Tomes and perhaps less combative in tone. I want to reach out to LSMers who are asking questions.

I think this is a good idea. I have to say that I've really found such writings to be helpful in my search for answers. There are plenty who have left the LC without looking back, and that is fine, but I think some are also needed who have the desire to help hurting members get out.

[aron]

Here's a quote from an ex-member of the LC. It is interesting how she frames the ideas of "choice" and "fear". It also helped me to look at venting anger again.

Originally Posted by Stacy Atkins

We all have choices to make in life, are entitled to be one and in complete harmony which whom and what we chose to be in harmony with. This is my message. All of the theologians, defenders of the church and anyone who cares to dispute this fact, is living in fear. This is the fear that I chose to not be a part of.

I have found a spiritual place where we are all accepted for who and where we are in life. Life is no longer a series of critical judgments of myself and others. I am now filled with a desire to be at peace with the world and everyone in it. Even those who dispute my choices, I love you. You are precious and living according to your heart and that is all that matters. Please make room for me in your heart, without judgment or fear, and embrace my quest for us “all” to be in harmony.

Your sister in Christ who has found her own voice, the one that God gave me…

This person released as much spiritual perception in one or two posts as my hundreds.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

I'm planning to write a how-to book for LSMers who want out. John Myer's book was for congregations moving out of the system but this one is for individuals.

At the same time, I want to write some scholarly papers on Leeism - mainly in the area of exegesis and hermeneutics. Definitely shorter than the ones written by Nigel Tomes and perhaps less combative in tone. I want to reach out to LSMers who are asking questions.

I look forward to your "how-to" book for LSMers. I have been wanting a way out for years, but the Lord has not yet led me out.

I also look forward to reading your scholarly papers on Leeism. Short is good. Some of what Nigel writes is interesting, but length prevents me from reading through many of them.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by InOmnibusCaritas

I'd built my entire social identity around the LC. Everyone I knew before 2006 were from LCs. To maintain my convictions will mean the loss of personal identity, community, family, and even romantic relationship. All these for "one publication"? Who is Titus Chu anyway? I'd not heard him speak nor read his books. Where is Cleveland on a map?

Oh the sleepless nights. The greatest worry of them all was this: WHAT IF I AM WRONG?? 1000 YEARS OF OUTER DARKNESS, ANYONE??

So I think we need to come up with a strategy on how to help others make the exodus instead of enraging them just because we need to vent our anger (I know, we are all angry). How do we show them love?

I believe it is the case for many, their social identity is based on "the churchlife". That's what I believe makes leaving so difficult. Where would they go? Who would they fellowship with?

We should all ask ourselves, "what if". Just asking that question is an indicator of humility. For one to say they cannot to be wrong, they may be under the spirit of deception. Not one of us is exempt from deception. That's why we all need a reality check; what if?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

I believe it is the case for many, their social identity is based on "the churchlife". That's what I believe makes leaving so difficult. Where would they go? Who would they fellowship with?

We should all ask ourselves, "what if". Just asking that question is an indicator of humility. For one to say they cannot to be wrong, they may be under the spirit of deception. Not one of us is exempt from deception. That's why we all need a reality check; what if?

Lee certainly created an enticing system. Once you are made to believe that you're following the "ministry of the age", the implications of rejecting that ministry are enough to keep most people in the system.

I'm sure that fear is a big factor. Speaking for myself, it took me a long time to join this forum, even though I had been reading it for quite a while. Having come from the view of LSM representing the "ministry of the age", I was in fear of saying anything critical of it. Why? I can't really say what caused that fear. What I can say is that fear is something that keeps people from questioning things. Those in the LC don't even have to pass around stories about the bad things happen to people who leave, they can just pull out their "1000 years of punishment" teaching to keep everyone in check. It's really a sick system.

[InOmnibusCaritas]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Lee certainly created an enticing system. Once you are made to believe that you're following the "ministry of the age", the implications of rejecting that ministry are enough to keep most people in the system.

I'm sure that fear is a big factor. Speaking for myself, it took me a long time to join this forum, even though I had been reading it for quite a while. Having come from the view of LSM representing the "ministry of the age", I was in fear of saying anything critical of it. Why? I can't really say what caused that fear. What I can say is that fear is something that keeps people from questioning things. Those in the LC don't even have to pass around stories about the bad things happen to people who leave, they can just pull out their "1000 years of punishment" teaching to keep everyone in check. It's really a sick system.

Yes, fear is a great motivation. The thought of being sidelined by God like Barnabas for parting ways with Paul is frightening. The average LC Christian buys this theology because he is not exposed to contemporary Christian writings.

[Amcasci]

I remember well the deep fear...no one will understand me...I will lose my mind...I will be cast out by Christ. But the Holy Spirit is far greater than the spirit of fear and deception. In an old church building in Cleveland OH I daily and often each day read

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow m. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

The Father and the Son held hands and their held hands held me. It is all by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. I have no boast. I am simply a piece of human waste floating in the ocean of His mercy.