Drop your concepts

[aron]

I was reading the 4th message of Galatians life study and it says 15 times to "drop your concepts". It says another 6 times the word "concepts", like, "I'm worried that you hold on to concepts." So 21 times in a message he pushes the ideas of letting go of concepts. Another 5 times he uses the word "drop", like "drop the veils".

He says, "As we review our past experience, we shall have to admit that in our reading of the Bible we did not see much of Christ."

It seems as if he is de-legitimizing previous experiences as void. He is wiping away the slate. But, his ideas and teachings are not concepts but revelations. Previous understandings of scripture are imperiled; eventually the Bible itself can be held to be "concepts" of "fallen men".

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

I was reading the 4th message of Galatians life study and it says 15 times to "drop your concepts". It says another 6 times the word "concepts", like, "I'm worried that you hold on to concepts." So 21 times in a message he pushes the ideas of letting go of concepts. Another 5 times he uses the word "drop", like "drop the veils".

Wow... it has been years...decades actually.. that I have heard that phrase "drop your concepts". I wonder if the LC still uses that phrase??

He says, "As we review our past experience, we shall have to admit that in our reading of the Bible we did not see much of Christ."

I think he meant, "we did not see much of Witness Lee"

It seems as if he is de-legitimizing previous experiences as void.

I think he was brainwashing people not to trust the Spirit Who reveals Christ in the scriptures. Rather, it was his way of manipulating people to trust only Lee's and to a lesser extent, Nee's insights.

ugh!

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

I was reading the 4th message of Galatians life study and it says 15 times to "drop your concepts". It says another 6 times the word "concepts", like, "I'm worried that you hold on to concepts." So 21 times in a message he pushes the ideas of letting go of concepts. Another 5 times he uses the word "drop", like "drop the veils".
He says, "As we review our past experience, we shall have to admit that in our reading of the Bible we did not see much of Christ."
It seems as if he is de-legitimizing previous experiences as void. He is wiping away the slate. But, his ideas and teachings are not concepts but revelations. Previous understandings of scripture are imperiled; eventually the Bible itself can be held to be "concepts" of "fallen men".

What you have stated is simply the heart of the message of Lee---whatever we had experienced or learned previously was intended to be eradicated so that the teachings of WL could be absorbed into our psyches. Whatever he had us do i.e. calling on the Lord, pray-reading or dropping your concepts was intended to wipe your mind clean of your Biblical experiences and learning. Does anyone remember Lee being challenged or questioned at any time by anyone regarding the Christian experience or learning? It was not a give and take experience...we were all drowned in WL's teachings without the possibility of questioning anything. There was no possibility of coming up for air.

[awareness]

I dropped all of my concepts ... even those of the local church and Nee and Lee.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

Does anyone remember Lee being challenged or questioned at any time by anyone regarding the Christian experience or learning? It was not a give and take experience...we were all drowned in WL's teachings without the possibility of questioning anything. There was no possibility of coming up for air.

It was striking how he kept repeating the same phraseology over and over. And that was an edited, published text... it must have been something to see, in person. I'd bet he said "drop your concepts" 30 or 40 times in one message.

And yet, "one city, one church" is not a concept? And, "get in line with the person in front of you" is not a concept?

[aron]

I remember the song, hymn #537. "Christ to me is so subjective." Apparently so subjective that you can wave away centuries of Christian experience as invalid. So subjective that everything you see and speak is revelation, while everyone else merely has concepts. So subjective that you can trample on others' Christ with impunity. So subjective that you can determine which scriptures are revelatory and which are merely fallen human concepts.

In short, so subjective that it needs little or no reference in objective reality. Sounds like a good foundation for a religious movement, to me.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

I dropped all of my concepts ... even those of the local church and Nee and Lee.

Sorry, no. Those were revelations. Please get your terminology straight if you want to participate, here. We all want to arrive at the oneness, right?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Sorry, no. Those were revelations. Please get your terminology straight if you want to participate, here. We all want to arrive at the oneness, right?

So Lee was saying, "drop your concepts so you can refill them with my theology, that comes to me as a direct revelation from God, as with all MOTAs?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

So Lee was saying, "drop your concepts so you can refill them with my theology, that comes to me as a direct revelation from God, as with all MOTAs?"

Right: the MOTA gets the revelation. Everyone else has to drop their concepts. And even the statement "The MOTA gets the revelation; everyone else drop your concepts" is itself a revelation. From the MOTA, of course. "The MOTA gets the revelation" is a revelation from the MOTA who gets the revelations.

When one recognizes that the whole thing is "so subjective", like in hymn #537, it makes perfect sense. It's a self-contained, hermetically sealed universe, and you have to "enter WL's matrix" to make it sensible - from an outside, objective perspective it seems like schizophrenic delusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind

"Double binds are often utilized as a form of control without open coercion—the use of confusion makes them both difficult to respond to as well as to resist."

"Just drop your concepts - and my revelation will make sense to you."

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

"Just drop your concepts - and my revelation will make sense to you."

That is how he rewrote scripture.

It "simply" means X.

All that Christianity says about it is wrong. It is "just" Y.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Right: the MOTA gets the revelation. Everyone else has to drop their concepts. And even the statement "The MOTA gets the revelation; everyone else drop your concepts" is itself a revelation. From the MOTA, of course. "The MOTA gets the revelation" is a revelation from the MOTA who gets the revelations.

When one recognizes that the whole thing is "so subjective", like in hymn #537, it makes perfect sense. It's a self-contained, hermetically sealed universe, and you have to "enter WL's matrix" to make it sensible - from an outside, objective perspective it seems like schizophrenic delusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind

"Double binds are often utilized as a form of control without open coercion—the use of confusion makes them both difficult to respond to as well as to resist."

"Just drop your concepts - and my revelation will make sense to you."

The problem with the whole "drop your concepts" idea is how it is used. Maybe it was suitable in a particular context whether it be Galatians or something else, but the way I have seen the phrase thrown around, there is no explanation as to why it would be a practice based on the Bible.

I agree completely that it could be some sort of way to create confusion as a means to suppress people from taking initiative. Sometimes there are opportunities for people in the LC to provide input. Such input could either be accepted or met with a "drop your concepts" statement. When expressing ideas or opinions could arbitrary be criticized for no particular reason, it keeps people from wanting to contribute their ideas and even may keep them living in a state of fear.

[OBW]

Of course, having a concept, or opinion, is evidence that you are using your mind. And you are supposed to turn off your mind and get your spirit in gear.

It is obvious that your spirit is the part of your unthinking self that agrees with Lee. Or at least that is susceptible to the nonsense of Lee. It is willing to be manipulated by emotions and mob mentality.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Of course, having a concept, or opinion, is evidence that you are using your mind. And you are supposed to turn off your mind and get your spirit in gear...[be] willing to be manipulated by emotions and mob mentality.

Remember that this message was given in a state of heightened emotional response. People were shouting, chanting, declaring lines from the outlines of the message or from a chosen hymn. In the personal testimonies section of the meeting I'd see women scream key words from the message, people would cry, or would jump up and down, waving their arms. Later someone would get out a guitar and a we'd have a song about "Drop your concepts" to be sung repeatedly.

This incessant repetion in an emotionally-charged atmosphere caused a kind of brain washing effect. If you tried to read the Bible, think, or hear any other Christian message, the thought-program would activate and guide you through what you saw and heard. It took me years to recognize and grapple with the voices in my head from WL's ministry.

Here's 3 paragraphs from the Galatians LS message 4. Note that this is an edited & published message - in the meeting the repetition was often even stronger.

THE NEED TO DROP OUR CONCEPTS

If we would receive revelation of the Son of God, we need to drop our concepts. Every concept, whether spiritual or carnal, is a veil. I have spent many years groping in my search to learn how to have revelation. Eventually I discovered that to have revelation we need to drop our concepts.

God today is shining everywhere. The age of grace is an age of light. God is shining, and the Bible is shining also. The Bible is full of light, and it has been printed in hundreds of languages. Moreover, the all-inclusive Spirit moving on Earth is full of grace. But although the Bible is shining and the Spirit is moving, many still do not receive revelation. The reason is that they hold to certain concepts and are veiled by these concepts. This is also true among us in the Lord's recovery. On the one hand I worship the Lord for all the growth and improvement among us. On the other hand, I realize that many veils remain. These veils are the concepts that blind us.

With respect to receiving revelation, there is no problem on God's side. On His side everything is ready. The problem is altogether on our side. We need to drop the veils, that is, to drop our concepts. It is important for us to pray, "Lord, help me to drop everything that is a veil." If you hold on to your concepts while reading the Bible, you will be like the ancient Jews who had a veil on their mind whenever the Scriptures were read. But if you drop your concepts as you read the Word, you will read it with an unveiled face. Then the light will shine into you subjectively.

The scriptural basis is the veil that blinds us, keeping us from seeing God. That's a common Christian theme, and not outrageous at all. But I felt that with the sheer volume of repetition, and heightened meeting experience merged with the "church life" of singing songs, declaring key phrases, we'd actually re-program ourselves to enter the matrix of WL's thought-world. There, anything including centuries of Christian experience, including even the Bible itself, could be waved away as null and void, as mere "human concepts". But if the oracle declared "one city, one church" was not a concept but instead was a revelation of Christ, then we were primed. "Drop your concepts" effectively meant "don't think".

Originally Posted by Freedom

I agree completely that it could be some sort of way to create confusion as a means to suppress people from taking initiative. Sometimes there are opportunities for people in the LC to provide input. Such input could either be accepted or met with a "drop your concepts" statement. When expressing ideas or opinions could arbitrary be criticized for no particular reason, it keeps people from wanting to contribute their ideas and even may keep them living in a state of fear.

The only time I heard where someone's "concept" got accepted as "God's present revelation" in the LC was with the Austin TX campus work. Tym Seay's concept of how to attract college students into the LC pipeline became the de facto method of choice once Anaheim signed on. But in the LC it's almost impossible for anyone outside of HQ to think, or do anything resembling personal initiative.

In my locality I saw a number of times when the elders got "fellowship" about their ideas. Not once did their initiatives or ideas survive. You learned to keep your mouth shut, except to repeat the platitudes of Anaheim. Remember, "Drop all your concepts". Very impressive -- the key to controlling people is, don't let them realize they're being controlled.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I think he was brainwashing people not to trust the Spirit Who reveals Christ in the scriptures. Rather, it was his way of manipulating people to trust only Lee's and to a lesser extent, Nee's insights.

Once someone accepted WL's premise (and remember it's not on a superficial level but in the charismatic experience it's emotional acceptance also) they'd feel some fear if they tried to question the so-called apostle's ideas, even if his presentation missed the scripture, or bothered the conscience or rational capacity. Our LC church life "Christ" became "so subjective" to us, a la hymn #537, that only what the apostle declared as real was actually real. Everything else was veils and human concepts.

[aron]

Now, the apologist could say that this is all a cultural misunderstanding, that we misinterpret WL's stilted language as sinister. But in the LC experience, WL's stilted language was evidence of the spirit. We didn't look for tongues of flame, or people getting healed; we looked for peculiar phraseology. Then, we'd hop up and down, repeating it verbatim, and voila, we were "in spirit."

For example, if during this meeting of the Galatians training, I stood up and yelled, "Brothers and sisters, we need to... DROP.... OUR.... CONCEPTS!!!", and hopped up and down with each of the last 3 words, giving a fist pump with each arm, everyone would say, "Wow, that guy is really in spirit." Which would mean that I was being "unveiled" and seeing Christ as He really is. That, in the LC, was reality itself. So the peculiar phraseology was not coincidental. It was key; it was the evidence (with volume, repetition, and body language) of the Spirit.

[awareness]

Drop your concepts is a concept that's included in the droppings. It's an ouroboros (Greek=οὐροβόρος ὄφις), eating our own mental tail. In that state of mind you'll buy into any absurdity ... even the notion of a MOTA.

But Lee is right, in the end. In order to receive revelation, that is that, you are in a personality cult, you have to drop all your concepts, even those of Nee and Lee ... and that revelation sets you free. Amen ...

I'm not much of a fan of concepts either. Not that I'm not loaded down with 'em ... they just fail to bring certainty. I think concepts are blow-hard memes, that we've got to manage to sail past.

And certainty we need to get past Lee too.

"Just drop off the key, Lee, And get yourself free" - Paul Simon - 50 ways to leave your lover

[Cal]

When Lee said "drop you concepts" he meant "drop your pre-conceived notions." He meant when you go to God for revelation don't take baggage along. This is reasonable and helpful advice, taken in moderation.

But like everything in the LCM it was not taken in moderation, but to the extreme. Even Lee abused it. But mostly it was abused by overlording people seeking to control others or dismiss troublemakers.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

When Lee said "drop you concepts" he meant "drop your pre-conceived notions." He meant when you go to God for revelation don't take baggage along. This is reasonable and helpful advice, taken in moderation.

But like everything in the LCM it was not taken in moderation, but to the extreme. Even Lee abused it. But mostly it was abused by overlording people seeking to control others or dismiss troublemakers.

Easier said than done. Many in the Local churches came from many denominational backgrounds. Easy to leave the denominations, but much more difficult to take the denominational baggage out of the believer. Same goes for us ones who have left the local churches. There is baggage we bring with us to future fellowships.

As for "drop your concepts", that phrase has in itself become an abusive phrase.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

When Lee said "drop you concepts" he meant "drop your pre-conceived notions." He meant when you go to God for revelation don't take baggage along. This is reasonable and helpful advice, taken in moderation.

Yet, while good advice — if intended as you describe it — Lee was blind to the fact that he was insisting that we take on his pre-conceived notions. Dropping your concept was never intended as the clearing of the mind for true meditation and consideration, but for thoughtless acceptance of his concept.

The way Lee modified the meaning of scripture beyond reasonable bounds seems to indicate that he knew what he wanted to believe and was determined that the text of the scripture never get in his way. The Bible was made a servant to his will rather than the other way around.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

For example, if during this meeting of the Galatians training, I stood up and yelled, "Brothers and sisters, we need to... DROP.... OUR.... CONCEPTS!!!", and hopped up and down with each of the last 3 words, giving a fist pump with each arm, everyone would say, "Wow, that guy is really in spirit." Which would mean that I was being "unveiled" and seeing Christ as He really is. That, in the LC, was reality itself. So the peculiar phraseology was not coincidental. It was key; it was the evidence (with volume, repetition, and body language) of the Spirit.

And everyone went home from that meeting assured that they had experienced Christ in all those crazy testimonies. Why? Because we felt it. We experienced something and it was somehow related to the Bible, therefore it had to be Christ.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

And everyone went home from that meeting assured that they had experienced Christ in all those crazy testimonies. Why? Because we felt it. We experienced something and it was somehow related to the Bible, therefore it had to be Christ.

Shouting slogans doesn't make them any less empty than they were to start with; it just makes them more deeply ingrained. "Don't be hardened", indeed.

The simple truth, people, is that in true Christianity, you do not allow others to do your thinking for you. We are to use our minds in Christianity, else why would Paul say: "Renew your mind on truth!" Truth comes from Scripture, as interpreted by the Holy Spirit living within us. So neither Witness Lee nor anyone else does my thinking or my mind renewal for me. I read the Scriptures and ask God for their meaning and how they apply to ME. That is His Way. That is Grace in action. Lee is no more than a Protestant Pope who wants to be Christ's Vicar on Earth.