Coming Back to the Vision at the Beginning of the Lord's Recovery

[Indiana]

Coming

I am doing a series of at least three books on the history of Witness Lee and the Local Churches that will all go onto Amazon, beginning with Hiding History in the Nee and Lee Eras of the Lord's Recovery.

I don't think brother Philip Lin should have to bear that burden alone out there, with his loyalty issue preventing him from transparency in speaking what he knows to be true of our church history.


Amazon link
http://www.amazon.com/Hiding-History...lords+recovery


PDF link
www.lordsrecovery.us/HidingHistoryNeeLeeEras.pdf

[Cal]

Looking forward to it. You might also consider a Kindle version.

[TLFisher]

I will get back to it on the other thread eventually, but brothers such as Philip Lin "is in a unique position to shed light on the lack of transparency". Since Philip, Ron, Benson, etc choose not to, it leaves brothers such as Steve Isitt to do the investigational research and bring into light that which has been in darkness.

[Freedom]

I look forward to seeing this as well. A transparent history of the Local Church is greatly needed. Amazon is a good place for this, because these writings will be bound to show up when someone is searching for books by Lee or Nee.

[Indiana]

Kindle E-Book

http://www.amazon.com/Hiding-History...=1418502026040

[Indiana]

PDF Link
www.twoturmoils.com/WhatDeputyAuthorityisNot.pdf


What Deputy Authority is Not

This book addresses the misconceptions and mistakes of a “local church” leader who severely condemned his fellow co-workers in his book for violating “God’s government” on earth he thought was found in the person of former “local church” leader Witness Lee. Andrew Yu is a current leader of the “local churches” associated with Living Stream Ministry (LSM) and “the Lord’s recovery”.

Holding the concept that the “local churches” under Living Stream Ministry are the true expression of the church today, Andrew Yu makes his staggering claims about those who “violate” its government. This book will serve as a warning about the blind following of any church leadership, since fallibility of men is a constant, it is ever present; and valid reasons to follow them is not. People change, and leaders are people. But our Lord, Jesus Christ never changes. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8)

He is Lord, and He is King. This is a constant. He does not change.


Amazon Link

http://www.amazon.com/What-Deputy-Au...18932338&sr=1-
1&keywords=What+Deputy+Authority+is+Not

[Indiana]

PDF link

http://twoturmoils.com/ATimeofTurmoi...gofaLeader.pdf


Amazon Link

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Turmoil-D...ime+of+turmoil

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

A long-time Chinese elder, now “retired” recently told me that I have done so much damage to the brothers and that I owe them all an apology for writing about them on the internet. He suggested I write to each one individually and also to them on the forum collectively for a public confession.

What is the damage? With such a general statement being made, one can only speculate in the absence of specifics.

Several off the top:
1. Their pride was touched.
2. They were exposed for their roles in the late 80's turmoil. Instead of being part of the solution, they were part of the problem by lifting up a man and a ministry.

[UntoHim]

Brother Steve,
Maybe I'm missing something, or I am not looking at the complete book, but it seems to be that the great majority of the content of "Hiding History in the Nee and Lee Eras of the Lord's Recovery" is the Internet postings (on this Forum) of Don Rutledge. In fact, of the 42 pages, over 30 of them seem to be the writings of Don Rutledge taken directly from our Forum. I'm a little concerned that you did not get Don's express permission to basically reprint his postings on this forum. Of less concern, but concern nonetheless, is the fact that you did not contact me prior to using such a large portion of one of our member's postings. This is not a "legal matter", per se, but I am concerned for your testimony before God and man, and more specifically, your testimony before our dear brothers and sisters in the Local Churches, who, after all, are the very people you are seeking to help in knowing the true and full history of the Movement.

You need not reply to this posting on the open forum if you feel not to. You can send me a Private Message or email me at LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com.

Originally Posted by Indiana

Coming
I am doing a series of at least three books on the history of Witness Lee and the Local Churches that will all go onto Amazon, beginning with Hiding History in the Nee and Lee Eras of the Lord's Recovery.
Amazon link
http://www.amazon.com/Hiding-History...lords+recovery
PDF link
www.lordsrecovery.us/HidingHistoryNeeLeeEras.pdf

[Indiana]

Unto Him,

Thanks for sharing your concern.

Don Rutledge (Hope) at least received drafts of this book, and did not indicate any problem he had with my including his writing on Church History in the book. He asked me to edit his writing, which I did in late 2007 and early 2008. With his permission I started the thread and posted his first chapter onto the Bereans forum Feb 2008. I had edited the second chapter and it was initially placed on Matt Anderson's website then onto the forum, perhaps by Matt. Both chapters were transferred later in 2008 to your forum when everyone was moving to it. Here is the first post on Don's history,

Don Rutledge on the History of the Local Churches in the U. S.

"His Glory Broke Upon us when we saw HIM in the church"

This former well-reputed elder from Dallas, Texas, among other places, has been preserved by the Lord to speak the truth concerning the blessing, the glory, and the marvelous beginning the Lord had in His recovery in the U.S. and also what the factors have been leading to a loss of blessing and testimony in the local churches since 1974.

Many could attest to the earlier years in the church life being “joy unspeakable and full of glory”, with focus on the enjoyment of Christ in all His riches for the building up of the church, (His Body). New ones were simply added, even streaming into the churches at times. Migrations to other cities were the natural outflow and result of such an enjoyment and focus in the churches, for the cities and the earth. Nothing was forced.

Today, after having accumulated many hindering factors in the churches throughout the years, the churches haven’t had a natural outflow for migrations, a top sign of life and blessing, which we once had. And, we haven’t had it for over thirty-three years!

Brothers and sisters, do we have the will to understand why this is so and will we consider soberly the factors of blessing the churches once enjoyed; and the factors that led the churches to a loss of such blessing? We have that opportunity now, to make such a study.


Please link to Don's Book Chapter 1 for the Introduction and First Chapter of a book by Don Rutledge, which will be presented chapter by chapter as Don completes them. And, let us have some fellowship together in the Lord and before Him as responsible members of His Body, seeking Him, and our need for a proper understanding.


Steve Isitt
February 1, 2008
Last edited by Matt Anderson; 05-08-08 at 20:18.

Stevie is offline [They had to change my name to Stevie over there when that forum started mis-functioning.]

For the book on the Nee and Lee eras today on this current thread, I initially used a link to Don's church history, rather than printing it into my book, but Amazon needs at least 24 pages or they don't print. I don't mind my document being 12 pages. But they do. I said what I wanted to say in 12 pages, along with the two timelines of Nee and Lee (the pages of which are not counted by Amazon), and I had to add something and thought Don's history is a nice fitting piece of invaluable material to follow those timelines.

I refer to Don again and again in my writings because he is a breath of fresh air and a rare source for balanced truth-telling, which is my interest in being on the forum.

I hope we can focus on the content of the book I have posted here. There is a lot there, and a lot of thought and effort went into producing it since January, off and on, this year. Steve I. Dec 2014

To Indiana,

I am interested in these books, particularly "Hiding History in the Nee and Lee Eras of the Lord's Recovery" however, I share UntoHim's concern that you may not have obtained brother Don Rutledge's express permission to use his writing for this book. Is this true?

You mentioned that brother Don received drafts of the book, but did not mention what his response was. What was his feeling?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

To Indiana,

I am interested in these books, particularly "Hiding History in the Nee and Lee Eras of the Lord's Recovery" however, I share UntoHim's concern that you may not have obtained brother Don Rutledge's express permission to use his writing for this book. Is this true?

You mentioned that brother Don received drafts of the book, but did not mention what his response was. What was his feeling?

If you're interested in these books, why not register and participate on this forum as a member?

In regard to former elders, my insight is they know Steve's intent is to use their word as a public testimony. A non-response is the same as a yes.

[aron]

What is "the vision at the beginning of the Recovery"? That there was some "pure" church life which needs to be re-created? If so, then it seems that salvation is transferred from God's Christ to "the proper church life" as Nee or Lee defines it. Problem being, the proper church life is whatever Nee or Lee want it to be this week, to deal with whatever they have in front of them. The so-called proper church life is a moving target, and we found out that Lee was never satisfied. If we would just take his latest "move", he'd say, everything would be fine and the "recovery" would spread over the earth like waters over the sea. Wrong. Five years later there would be a new "five year plan" with new dictates and new promises. All to be abandoned later on, and forgotten. And if you looked back, you could see all the wreckage "in the wake of the new way."

So what is the vision at the beginning? I say it is Jesus Christ, God's sent Messiah. He is Lord of all. Some "recovered church" is just going to eventually collapse from its own dead weight. Our faith is in God's mercy and grace, not in some organization or in a "recovered truth".

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by aron

What is "the vision at the beginning of the Recovery"? That there was some "pure" church life which needs to be re-created? If so, then it seems that salvation is transferred from God's Christ to "the proper church life" as Nee or Lee defines it. Problem being, the proper church life is whatever Nee or Lee want it to be this week, to deal with whatever they have in front of them. The so-called proper church life is a moving target, and we found out that Lee was never satisfied. If we would just take his latest "move", he'd say, everything would be fine and the "recovery" would spread over the earth like waters over the sea. Wrong. Five years later there would be a new "five year plan" with new dictates and new promises. All to be abandoned later on, and forgotten. And if you looked back, you could see all the wreckage "in the wake of the new way."

So what is the vision at the beginning? I say it is Jesus Christ, God's sent Messiah. He is Lord of all. Some "recovered church" is just going to eventually collapse from its own dead weight. Our faith is in God's mercy and grace, not in some organization or in a "recovered truth".

I'm following Aron. The vision is a Person, Jesus Christ, God's sent Messiah.

"God is faithful, through whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. " 1 Cor. 1:9

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

What is "the vision at the beginning of the Recovery"? That there was some "pure" church life which needs to be re-created? If so, then it seems that salvation is transferred from God's Christ to "the proper church life" as Nee or Lee defines it. Problem being, the proper church life is whatever Nee or Lee want it to be this week, to deal with whatever they have in front of them. The so-called proper church life is a moving target, and we found out that Lee was never satisfied. If we would just take his latest "move", he'd say, everything would be fine and the "recovery" would spread over the earth like waters over the sea. Wrong. Five years later there would be a new "five year plan" with new dictates and new promises. All to be abandoned later on, and forgotten. And if you looked back, you could see all the wreckage "in the wake of the new way."

You could even say the so-called vision is a moving target. Depending what the current situation maybe, that becomes the vision. The vision that existed in 1965, or 1985 won't be the same vision in 2015.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

You could even say the so-called vision is a moving target. Depending what the current situation maybe, that becomes the vision. The vision that existed in 1965, or 1985 won't be the same vision in 2015.

I have read Don's writings on LC history, and I get the impression that what made the LC so successful initially was that it met some people's needs at that point in time. Don made the point that during the 60's, there was a lot of "cultural Christianity". Since I wasn't alive back then I don't know how much this was the case, but I think it can be safely said that we don't have much "cultural Christianity" nowadays. Secularism is increasing, and I don't think the problems that faced the US in the 60's are the same as what is facing us now. So if anything the LC met a need back then that it is incapable of meeting now.

I think where the LC went wrong initially was to assume that they were Gods' chosen group to combat issues that were plaguing mainstream Christianity. I know that during the 60's, there were many "non-traditional" Christian groups that came about, so the LC was simply one of many. I think its fair to say that people attending church today are doing so because that's what they want to do. There isn't any obligation to attend church nowadays, and no one is going to give it a second thought if someone isn't attending church. I think many churches today are meeting people's needs much better than in the past. The argument could be made that some of the things the LC thought they were "recovering" have already been realized elsewhere.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have read Don's writings on LC history, and I get the impression that what made the LC so successful initially was that it met some people's needs at that point in time. Don made the point that during the 60's, there was a lot of "cultural Christianity". Since I wasn't alive back then I don't know how much this was the case, but I think it can be safely said that we don't have much "cultural Christianity" nowadays. Secularism is increasing, and I don't think the problems that faced the US in the 60's are the same as what is facing us now. So if anything the LC met a need back then that it is incapable of meeting now.

Oh, I was just randomly putting dates out there. The general attitude I have come across in the local churches is that "the vision" is unchanging. I beg to differ. The vision brothers refer often about is in constant change. Read some of Lee's books that were initially released in the 1960's or 1970's. Does the vision released in those messages still hold today?

[rayliotta]

This reminds me of the Uncle Rico character in the movie, Napoleon Dynamite. He was obsessed with the football pass he should have made back in the day. It was a couple decades later and he just couldn't get over it.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Terry

Oh, I was just randomly putting dates out there. The general attitude I have come across in the local churches is that "the vision" is unchanging. I beg to differ. The vision brothers refer often about is in constant change. Read some of Lee's books that were initially released in the 1960's or 1970's. Does the vision released in those messages still hold today?

Right, on the one hand, there's the "controlling vision of the Lord's Recovery," which was recovered through Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

On the other hand, there's the "present, up-to-date speaking in the ministry," that requires our constant attention, lest we miss out on being "up-to-date."

Moral of the story: You need to pay lots of attention to "the ministry"...or the train might leave the station without you.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

Oh, I was just randomly putting dates out there. The general attitude I have come across in the local churches is that "the vision" is unchanging. I beg to differ. The vision brothers refer often about is in constant change.

It is hard to pinpoint what "the vision" is in the context of the modern LC, but I think that in a historical perspective, "the vision" encompassed things that some of the brothers were striving for that they couldn't find in mainstream Christianity at that time. Of course, once Lee took over the show, it was all about whatever he wanted "the vision" to be.

In the modern LC, I commonly hear the brothers tell the young people (college students, FTTA, etc) that they are "age turners". It is almost like they purposely do this to flatter the young people, to make them feel important. Most of this age group take these words to heart and believe that they have been commissioned with a "vision", although it is never clear what exactly this "vision" is.

Originally Posted by Terry

Read some of Lee's books that were initially released in the 1960's or 1970's. Does the vision released in those messages still hold today?

I haven't read much of the "early Lee" writings, probably because these writings have been de-emphasized. It's not hard to notice discrepancies between different writings of Lee's. Even within some of his writings, he contradicts himself.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

Oh, I was just randomly putting dates out there. The general attitude I have come across in the local churches is that "the vision" is unchanging. I beg to differ.

And so did they. When I used Witness Lee's books to prove "The Flow of Oneness" by following a master leader was wrong I was accused of using Witness Lee's works to destroy Witness Lee's works. In other words, the old works of Lee didn't apply to Lee's latest new works. It was a moving target, I wasn't keeping up, and so was damaging Lee by using Lee's old messages. Insanity.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

When I used Witness Lee's books to prove "The Flow of Oneness" by following a master leader was wrong I was accused of using Witness Lee's works to destroy Witness Lee's works. In other words, the old works of Lee didn't apply to Lee's latest new works. It was a moving target, I wasn't keeping up, and so was damaging Lee by using Lee's old messages. Insanity.

As Ohio told us, TC and company did the same thing -- used earlier writing to show that the New Way was a deviation from the Original Controlling Vision. Shame on them for being stuck in the past. The Lord's Recovery had moved on.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the modern LC, I commonly hear the brothers tell the young people (college students, FTTA, etc) that they are "age turners". It is almost like they purposely do this to flatter the young people, to make them feel important. Most of this age group take these words to heart and believe that they have been commissioned with a "vision", although it is never clear what exactly this "vision" is.

And the ones who were told they were age-turners 40 years ago now are sitting in the back, white-haired; they're the Community Saints. The Vision of the Age has moved on to a new generation of Young Galileans. Too bad for you if you're not up to date with the latest Move of the Lord.

[aron]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Right, on the one hand, there's the "controlling vision of the Lord's Recovery," which was recovered through Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

On the other hand, there's the "present, up-to-date speaking in the ministry," that requires our constant attention, lest we miss out on being "up-to-date."

Moral of the story: You need to pay lots of attention to "the ministry"...or the train might leave the station without you.

Read the novel Animal Farm: there the spokesman Squealer is constantly trying to explain Napoleon's latest turn as a seamless continuation of the Grand Vision. The Revolution continues, comrades!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

As Ohio told us, TC and company did the same thing -- used earlier writing to show that the New Way was a deviation from the Original Controlling Vision. Shame on them for being stuck in the past. The Lord's Recovery had moved on.

And move on they did. I couldn't take it back in 1980 when I left, and it got way worse after I left, so I've learned on these LCD forums.

In fact, I've been in wonderment out here on these LC forums, at times, upon discovering people that have joined the group after I left. I conclude quickly. They must have had the same needs I had when I joined. I'm still scratching my head over that one. Wonderment upon wonderment. God works in mysterious ways, and so does our brains.

And my heart is deeply moved every time I run into those that grew up in the LC. I can't imagine what it would be like to have "the vision" shoved down your throats from diapers. I'm still recovering from my little voluntary stint in the LC.

But I'm a recovering fundamentalist too. So I know what indoctrination is, tho maybe not as intensely as in the LC.

All I got to say is, good luck. This stuff packs a real whammy. It will permanently bend your palm tree. But like that palm tree, keep on reaching up ... to the son. Or don't. I found God makes the Sun shine on us all alike. So God is reaching down(?) right now ... for you.

Why else am I still involved in all of this after all these years?

I'm off now to get together with a large gathering of my Southern Baptist family. Wish ME luck.

Whammy! With love. Hopefully. Love covers differences.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

Read the novel Animal Farm: there the spokesman Squealer is constantly trying to explain Napoleon's latest turn as a seamless continuation of the Grand Vision. The Revolution continues, comrades!

That was one of the first books I read upon leaving the LC. It was an eye opener. But it did not leave me with any clear sense of direction and thus I wandered in the Wilderness where I learned to have FAITH and cultivate a real relationship with my Creator, Savior, King, and Helper.

Great book nonetheless! Everyone should read it!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

That was one of the first books I read upon leaving the LC. It was an eye opener. But it did not leave me with any clear sense of direction and thus I wandered in the Wilderness where I learned to have FAITH and cultivate a real relationship with my Creator, Savior, King, and Helper.

Great book nonetheless! Everyone should read it!

Funny, Witness Lee said in court that we were all equal in the local church. But he sure practiced that some were more equal than all the rest.

[Indiana]

Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery

This book took two years to complete, January 2005 to January 2007, and was edited five times by a long-time Local Church brother still in the church life today.


PDF
http://www.lordsrecovery.us/Deviatin...dsRecovery.pdf


Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Deviating-Path...lords+recovery

E-book on Kindle tomorrow

Sailing, Sailing On Over the Truth Coming Soon

(Prices fluctuate automatically with Amazon)

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

In fact, I've been in wonderment out here on these LC forums, at times, upon discovering people that have joined the group after I left. I conclude quickly. They must have had the same needs I had when I joined. I'm still scratching my head over that one. Wonderment upon wonderment. God works in mysterious ways, and so does our brains.

And my heart is deeply moved every time I run into those that grew up in the LC. I can't imagine what it would be like to have "the vision" shoved down your throats from diapers. I'm still recovering from my little voluntary stint in the LC.

Since I grew up in the LC, I didn't come to the LC with specific needs, rather I was conditioned to feel that the LC could meet my every need. From a young age, I quickly learned that the LC possessed a grandiose "vision" that no other Christians saw. Any way you look at it, it can become addicting to hold this view of being so much better than everyone else. I don't think "the vision" was originally intended to be this way, it's just something that mutated into that, given WL's exclusivity.

I think that it is interesting to consider the experiences of those who come into the LC, versus those who grew up there. For many older saints, when you hear their testimonies, it becomes clear that for them, the LC met some need that wasn't being met in whatever church they were in before. For others, the LC was an alternative to drugs or alcohol, and resulted in them having a complete change in lifestyle. So I think in some instances "the vision" was simply what the LC offered to people that they had trouble finding elsewhere.

Now for someone like me who grew up there, everything is different. I was raised in a "sheltered" environment, so I didn't have the same needs that people like my parents had, which drew them to the LC. For me, the LC was never about offering a positive alternative to something else. I didn't see any "vision" other than what I learned regarding the exclusivity of the LC.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Indiana

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/Deviatin...dsRecovery.pdf

Quote from the linked material:
"In the new way, beginning in October 1984, many changes took place in the Lord’s recovery among the local churches. Although many of those changes were outward and according to Scripture, one was related to a change in nature to the recovery itself. An elder in the Northwest expressed the essence of that change, declaring in a meeting, “If you are not here for Brother Lee and his ministry, you might as well not be here.” The ministry was promoted to such an extent that it became the primary factor of oneness in the churches.""
End Quote.

In the church in Ft. Lauderdale this began in 1978 & 79. I think I've told of the crazy insane meeting where everyone was standing up and pumping their fist shouting: "If you're not with us get out ... if you're not with us get out." And it was all over following Witness Lee as the one and only apostle/oracle of God on the earth.

I guess the churches in the Northeast took 4 or 5 years to catch up to the church in Ft. Lauderdale, but the spirit was the same, and was obviously continuing (long after I left) and spreading. What I saw back then only got worse from there.

Except for the bewitching factor (Gal 3:1) I don't see any reason why anyone would stay in the local church today.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

So what is the vision at the beginning? I say it is Jesus Christ, God's sent Messiah. He is Lord of all. Some "recovered church" is just going to eventually collapse from its own dead weight. Our faith is in God's mercy and grace, not in some organization or in a "recovered truth".

In those early days in the LC's, there were three distinctive characteristics that duplicated what the Lord gave me when i was first saved -- love for God, love for His word, and love for His people.

Firstly we were Christ centered. It was part of our jargon, and we meant it. Secondly, we wanted to be freed from man-made traditions by returning to the pure word of God. Lastly, we had a vibrant community, loving and caring for one another.

I would characterize these three ingredients as my initial "vision." Everything that came along afterwards just leavened that vision.

When the Lord Jesus walked on earth, He did enact a "recovery" of sorts by exposing the hypocrisy and traditions of men which hindered God's people from entering His kingdom. In that regard, a "recovery" of sorts has been going on since the time of Abel, long before both the church and Israel. When men of God like John Ingalls a quarter century ago attempted to reform the church in Anaheim, he was only attempting to "recover" the Recovery. Ingalls never had in mind the great global conspiracy he was accused of, rather Ingalls saw the degradations emanating from the hypocrisy and traditions of men at LSM, and longed to correct them. He was thus a reformer in the truest sense.

Accusing John Ingalls of that "great global conspiracy" back in the late 80's is like branding the Lord Jesus of being a "rebellious leper," or accusing Martin Luther of attempting to destroy the "ministry" of the Pope. Every brother or minister who attempts to follow his conscience by obeying the inner anointing according to the scripture will ALWAYS be blackballed by the powers that be.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have read Don's writings on LC history, and I get the impression that what made the LC so successful initially was that it met some people's needs at that point in time. Don made the point that during the 60's, there was a lot of "cultural Christianity"

The LC met people's needs back then because Christ was there in a living way. As Witness Lee forced his way into front and center, there slowly became no more room for the Lord. Today they can only talk about how the old-timers lives were once changed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It is hard to pinpoint what "the vision" is in the context of the modern LC, but I think that in a historical perspective, "the vision" encompassed things that some of the bt is never clear what exactly this "vision" is.

Today the vision is simple -- do everything you are told to do without complaining.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The LC met people's needs back then because Christ was there in a living way. As Witness Lee forced his way into front and center, there slowly became no more room for the Lord. Today they can only talk about how the old-timers lives were once changed.

Too bad people let Lee control the LC... instead of OUR Lord Jesus Christ.

He RULES!!!!
God bless us...because we are HIS.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Too bad people let Lee control the LC... instead of OUR Lord Jesus Christ.

The responsibility for this "control" does not lie with the members, i.e. the so-called laity, but with the evil workers, the so-called hierarchy in the LC's. Had the members been allowed to prosper without this control, the LC's would be a completely different environment today.

These local leaders attracted us to Christ, His word, and brotherly love, and then pulled a bait-n-switch by re-connecting us to "the ministry," which was composed of Lee and his network of cronies. The Apostle Paul called these ones "dogs and evil workers," so maybe I should use those expressions instead of "cronies." Either way, the program promoted a system of man-pleasing ambitions, with each worker attempting to advance, not by pleasing the Lord as servant-leaders, but by political back-biting to make a "really good show" to those in Anaheim.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Today the vision is simple -- do everything you are told to do without complaining.

In more spiritual terms it is called "being one".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In those early days in the LC's, there were three distinctive characteristics that duplicated what the Lord gave me when i was first saved -- love for God, love for His word, and love for His people.

Firstly we were Christ centered. It was part of our jargon, and we meant it. Secondly, we wanted to be freed from man-made traditions by returning to the pure word of God. Lastly, we had a vibrant community, loving and caring for one another.

I would characterize these three ingredients as my initial "vision." Everything that came along afterwards just leavened that vision.

When the Lord Jesus walked on earth, He did enact a "recovery" of sorts by exposing the hypocrisy and traditions of men which hindered God's people from entering His kingdom. In that regard, a "recovery" of sorts has been going on since the time of Abel, long before both the church and Israel. When men of God like John Ingalls a quarter century ago attempted to reform the church in Anaheim, he was only attempting to "recover" the Recovery. Ingalls never had in mind the great global conspiracy he was accused of, rather Ingalls saw the degradations emanating from the hypocrisy and traditions of men at LSM, and longed to correct them. He was thus a reformer in the truest sense.

Accusing John Ingalls of that "great global conspiracy" back in the late 80's is like branding the Lord Jesus of being a "rebellious leper," or accusing Martin Luther of attempting to destroy the "ministry" of the Pope. Every brother or minister who attempts to follow his conscience by obeying the inner anointing according to the scripture will ALWAYS be blackballed by the powers that be.

Outstanding Post bro Ohio...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

In more spiritual terms it is called "being one".

That would be the distorted oneness originated in Rome.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by aron

In more spiritual terms it is called "being one".

Yes, "being one" with a very small group. While being separated and apart from 99.99% (literally) of global Christianity.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Yes, "being one" with a very small group. While being separated and apart from 99.99% (literally) of global Christianity.

If you read Paul's fellowship with Corinth about oneness and blending, you will discover that Paul never had in mind oneness with a publishing house, oneness with the workers, or oneness with headquarters in Jerusalem ... but oneness with "a very small group," i.e. the brothers and sisters surrounding us.

We were indoctrinated to be one with Witness Lee, even though we could not be one with the brother next to us.

[Cal]

I think we owe Steve the respect of spending some time talking about the contents of his book.

Although his book is basically a reprint of things we've read before, and could do with more editing, Steve is to be commended for collecting this information and attempting to get it before the eyes of the public.

This is less a book than a loosely connected collection of anecdotes regarding the history of the demise of LC movement. Non-LCers might be confused by the references, ideas and jargon, and even scratch their heads about the point of the book. But Steve never meant this as a history for general reading. His goal is to rally LCers to demand the accountability which he hopes will restore God's blessing to the movement and return it to its glory days.

Whether or not God is actually interested in such a restoration is anyone's guess. However, the accountability and transparency, not to mention repentance, that Steve longs for would be a good prescription for any Christian group, the LC especially.

But regardless, this book should be read by anyone with an interest in the history of the LC movement in the USA before 1990. The testimony and recollections of Don Rutledge alone are fascinating and worth the price of the book. Having been in the church in Austin and having known the people Don talks about, reading the book brought back memories and added background and insight to my experiences. I hope all those brothers and sisters have found peace and purpose after those oftentimes foolish days of our youth.

Originally Posted by Terry

A non-response is the same as a yes.

Following the principle that Terry has set forth, Indiana’s non-response to my inquiry concerning whether or not he used brother Don's writing without obtaining his express permission would indicate that the answer is "yes". Therefore, unless Indiana says otherwise, it is reasonable to assume that he did publish Rutledge’s writing without express permission (and, incidentally, is profiting from it). I find that quite troubling and somewhat share UntoHim's concern for Indiana's Christian testimony.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Following the principle that Terry has set forth, Indiana’s non-response to my inquiry concerning whether or not he used brother Don's writing without obtaining his express permission would indicate that the answer is "yes". Therefore, unless Indiana says otherwise, it is reasonable to assume that he did publish Rutledge’s writing without express permission (and, incidentally, is profiting from it). I find that quite troubling and somewhat share UntoHim's concern for Indiana's Christian testimony.

Except that Indiana and Don are in touch with each other, or have been in the past. Prolly, and I can call Indiana to confirm it, if you like.

[rayliotta]

Does Indiana care to discuss his book with us?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Does Indiana care to discuss his book with us?

Usually not. Neither does Nigel Tomes.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Usually not. Neither does Nigel Tomes.

And where's bro Don? Hope he's doing well. Lord bless our brother, and his family.

[Lisbon]

I surely hope I'm not purely pessimistic but with fifty long years of history of the "Recovery" and almost no change, I think it highly improbable that there can be any real repentance or turn. The regime is too well established. The seventy year olds are in the lead and many fifty year olds are pretty well in step.

I never heard much about old and new wine skins until in the LC. I do think that was one item of teaching that was dead on. Two thousand years of history has pretty well confirmed this.

Many may well know that Bible churches are out growth of Darby, Schoefield, and other Bretheren backgrounds, but possibly by the Lord's mercy they have chosen to separate from the real Darby sect. I feel the Bible church I attend is something of the Lord. At 84, I'm not too dogmatic except that the LC is clearly way off the mark.

Lisbon

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I surely hope I'm not purely pessimistic but with fifty long years of history of the "Recovery" and almost no change, I think it highly improbable that there can be any real repentance or turn. The regime is too well established. The seventy year olds are in the lead and many fifty year olds are pretty well in step.

I never heard much about old and new wine skins until in the LC. I do think that was one item of teaching that was dead on. Two thousand years of history has pretty well confirmed this.

Many may well know that Bible churches are out growth of Darby, Schoefield, and other Bretheren backgrounds, but possibly by the Lord's mercy they have chosen to separate from the real Darby sect. I feel the Bible church I attend is something of the Lord. At 84, I'm not too dogmatic except that the LC is clearly way off the mark.

Lisbon

Well Lord bless you dear brother. You're an enigma to me. How after 50 yrs you can come to admit you were wrong all those yrs is beyond me.

So am I right that you have no desire to even, "Come Back to the Vision at the Beginning?"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I surely hope I'm not purely pessimistic but with fifty long years of history of the "Recovery" and almost no change, I think it highly improbable that there can be any real repentance or turn. The regime is too well established. The seventy year olds are in the lead and many fifty year olds are pretty well in step.

I never heard much about old and new wine skins until in the LC. I do think that was one item of teaching that was dead on. Two thousand years of history has pretty well confirmed this.

Many may well know that Bible churches are out growth of Darby, Schoefield, and other Brethren backgrounds, but possibly by the Lord's mercy they have chosen to separate from the real Darby sect. I feel the Bible church I attend is something of the Lord. At 84, I'm not too dogmatic except that the LC is clearly way off the mark.

Lisbon

Shall I assume then that you have not secured a burial plot from LSM at the Grace Terrace burial site in Rose Hills Memorial Park right near "our dear brother" Witness Lee?

Listen to what they have to say about it ...

In 1997, a group of believers burdened for the preservation of biblical values came together to discuss plans for a dignified Christian burial place for fellow believers. Out of that gathering and the fellowship that followed, Grace Terrace Memorial Association was formed and Grace Terrace was conceived. A 2.5-acre parcel of scenic terraced land was identified within the undeveloped area of Rose Hills. Soon afterwards they commissioned the most talented and renowned design team in the country to design grounds that are unique and symbolize the lofty principles of the Christian faith. The result is Grace Terrace that will become a Christian cemetery unmatched in beauty and rich in a landscape that reflects our spiritual heritage.

Who knew such a thing could even exist?

[Cal]

Grace Terrace. Where LCers can take their exclusivity, literally, to their graves.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Indiana’s non-response to my inquiry concerning whether or not he used brother Don's writing without obtaining his express permission would indicate that the answer is "yes". Therefore, unless Indiana says otherwise, it is reasonable to assume that he did publish Rutledge’s writing without express permission (and, incidentally, is profiting from it). I find that quite troubling and somewhat share UntoHim's concern for Indiana's Christian testimony.

Hello unregistered,

Are you with DCP or LSM?

[UntoHim]

Unregistered Guest, while you are in no way obligated to answer Indiana's last inquiry here, I hope that you will consider my invitation to register for membership, and thus make an easier way for you to continue on the dialog with Indiana and others here on the forum.

Thanks for your consideration.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Unregistered Guest, while you are in no way obligated to answer Indiana's last inquiry here, I hope that you will consider my invitation to register for membership, and thus make an easier way for you to continue on the dialog with Indiana and others here on the forum.

Thanks for your consideration.

Yes bro Unregistered Guest, WELCOME! But please gird up yer loins, join, come out in the open, and stand face to face with us, in the light of day. We promise to treat you respect and civility, no matter your official affiliation, if any. Again I say WELCOME ... and hope to hear more from you.

[Indiana]

AMAZON http://www.amazon.com/Rosemead-Rebel...mead+rebellion


In October 1984, brother Witness Lee introduced the "new way" to "the local churches", which featured him and his ministry. By 1986 Living Stream Ministry went into high gear to establish, essentially, "ministry churches" , creating division, the first division supposedly occurring in the church in Rosemead, CA. The actual cause of division, however, is strikingly different then officially reported in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion - a book of total distortion of the facts leading the churches into division. The facts found in The Rosemead Rebellion present a clear portrayal of how division in that locality occurred and that it was a microcosm of how division has occurred ever since in the new way's 25-year history. (2009, when this was written, marked the 25-year point.)

PDF
http://twoturmoils.com/RosemeadRebellion.PDF

[Cal]

Steve,

I want to point out here, as I did here, that referring to Lee's movement as "the Lord's Recovery" helps confirm in the people in that movement that they are a privileged segment of the Church and so encourages their exclusive and elitist behavior.

The idea of "the Lord's Recovery" is nothing more that the recycled idea of being "the one true church." It is another manifestation of remnant thinking. If you want the members of that movement to stop thinking of themselves as special and above the rules the rest of us must follow, then don't encourage the idea that there was ever a "Lord's Recovery." Lee's movement was just a movement, nothing more. To suggest otherwise is to encourage the very behavior you are trying to stop.

There is no "Lord's Recovery" and never was. God is working the same among every one, just as he always has. That work is called "salvation." Let's leave it at that.

[OBW]

Igzy,

Your recent stance on the very term "Lord's recovery," which I agree with, has suddenly gotten me thinking about the use of the acronym "LRC" or "Lord's Recovery Church" to refer to them. We didn't like "LC" of "Local Church" because that is a generic term that should be applied to all churches since they are generally all, by fact of geography, at least reasonably local to the people who can or could meet there. Now, the one identifying term that was somewhat unique to them is unacceptable because it is somewhat reinforcing their errant considerations that they are the ones who the Lord is working in and through and others are not.

(BTW. In the Dallas area there is a church that is titled as a "recovery church." I cannot remember its precise name, but it is a full fledged church that has a major outreach to those in need of recovery with respect to alcohol, drugs, overeating, etc.)

We didn't like "Leeites" as being too derogatory. They won't like "CoLSM" (Church of the Living Stream Ministry) (or alternately LSMC — LSM church), especially for those who still hold to the general teachings but have disassociated from the LSM.

So where does that leave us?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

Igzy,

Your recent stance on the very term "Lord's recovery," which I agree with, has suddenly gotten me thinking about the use of the acronym "LRC" or "Lord's Recovery Church" to refer to them. We didn't like "LC" of "Local Church" because that is a generic term that should be applied to all churches since they are generally all, by fact of geography, at least reasonably local to the people who can or could meet there. Now, the one identifying term that was somewhat unique to them is unacceptable because it is somewhat reinforcing their errant considerations that they are the ones who the Lord is working in and through and others are not.

(BTW. In the Dallas area there is a church that is titled as a "recovery church." I cannot remember its precise name, but it is a full fledged church that has a major outreach to those in need of recovery with respect to alcohol, drugs, overeating, etc.)

We didn't like "Leeites" as being too derogatory. They won't like "CoLSM" (Church of the Living Stream Ministry) (or alternately LSMC — LSM church), especially for those who still hold to the general teachings but have disassociated from the LSM.

So where does that leave us?

I think simply "LC" works because we know what it means and it's minimally unoffensive to, well, LCers. That's what I've been using anyway. I think I originally suggested "LRC" but after a while it seemed to me a little too pointed.

Yeah, it appears "LRC" backfired on us.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think simply "LC" works because we know what it means and it's minimally unoffensive to, well, LCers. That's what I've been using anyway. I think I originally suggested "LRC" but after a while it seemed to me a little too pointed.

Yeah, it appears "LRC" backfired on us.

I consciously attempt to separate the LC's from LSM from individual leaders, so that I am more accurate, and less prone to generalizations. I see nothing wrong with calling the collective the "Recovery," especially since it backfires in the minds of most outsiders, who think we are struggling with step one of a twelve step process.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I consciously attempt to separate the LC's from LSM from individual leaders, so that I am more accurate, and less prone to generalizations. I see nothing wrong with calling the collective the "Recovery," especially since it backfires in the minds of most outsiders, who think we are struggling with step one of a twelve step process.

Yeah, when I first started and saw a Recovery Version bible I thought "Awww, how sweet, they're trying to help the down and out". By today's LSM standards that type might not be the best building material.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Yeah, when I first started and saw a Recovery Version bible I thought "Awww, how sweet, they're trying to help the down and out". By today's LSM standards that type might not be the best building material.

Apparently none of us who have left were very good "building material."

[Cal]

The problem I have is I don't know if Steve still believes in this thing called "the Lord's Recovery." He uses the term in his writings in the same way, generally, that the LC faithful do, with reverence.

I wonder why everyone doesn't just call it the "Local Church Movement" or the like, because that's all it was, a movement, no matter how "glorious" it was. There is no special subset of God's work called "the Recovery." Let's just get that straight. Like I said, once you call it the Lord's Recovery you provide justification to their arrogant attitudes. It's fuel to the very things Steve is fighting.

The term is just confusing. You never know for sure what someone really means by it.

[OBW]

So the LC, or the LCM (movement) is it. I'm tending toward the latter.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by HERn

By today's LSM standards that type might not be the best building material.

Yesterday, today, and tomorrow...

[Indiana]

AMAZON link

http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Vision-...of+the+new+way


PDF link

www.twoturmoils.com/IntheWakeoftheNewWay.pdf

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

AMAZON link

http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Vision-...of+the+new+way


PDF link

www.twoturmoils.com/IntheWakeoftheNewWay.pdf

May the Lord bless your little booklet Indiana.

As I was leaving the LC's, your article "In The Wake of the New Way" was very helpful and liberating. LC members have the right and the need to objectively look back upon the leadership of Witness Lee.

I noticed the subtitle of the new booklet is "The costly Movement of a Man and a Ministry."

[Indiana]

Hello Matt, good to hear from you...


Amazon Link

http://www.amazon.com/Church-Gideon-...urch+of+gideon


Kindle e-book will become available

[Indiana]

AMAZON
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...c%2Cstripbooks

This is a book of ministry excerpts stressing the vital need of shepherding among brothers and sisters for the building up of the Body of Christ.

It includes a lengthy word about a respected peacemaker among the Brethren in the 1800s who tried to bring two sides back together and was never "quarantined for his efforts....in dealing with a people “remarkable for rightly dividing the word of God and wrongly dividing themselves.” (Griffith)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Indiana

AMAZON
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...c%2Cstripbooks

Brother Witness Lee was a co-worker of Watchman Nee and both ministered in local churches in China before their rich New Testament ministries spread around the globe to edify believers in the Body of Christ everywhere. This was their spirit and heart, that all of God’s people could be nourished up in the words of the faith as New Testament believers and be cherished as precious members of the Body of Christ. To this end, both Lee and Nee in the last years of their ministries held trainings to help church leaders become shepherds of the flock by nourishing and cherishing each member in a tender and personal way for the building up of the Body in love.

Are you writing fiction bro Indiana?

[Indiana]

PDF
http://www.twoturmoils.com/TheChurch...dHis300Men.pdf


PDF
www.lordsrecovery.us/CherishingBook.pdf