The Psalms are the word of Christ

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

But WL instead of taking this route, essentially indicted the Psalmists for being low, and fallen, and struggling with their "natural concepts". Did Paul ever indicate this? Did Jesus, or Peter? So I am wondering if maybe God is using this word to expose WL as being himself burdened by natural concepts.

I don't think we are thinking or writing fundamentally different things. I just used the poetic language of the psalmist to say it.

I understand what you are saying. And it does follow the type of poetry of the psalm in question. But that psalm only talks that way concerning those who are: righteous, blameless, faithful, pure, clean, humble, etc.

Those who are haughty are brought low. So God does not reveal his words as haughty to those who are haughty. He brings them low. He opposes what they are rather than responding in kind.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Those who are haughty are brought low. So God does not reveal his words as haughty to those who are haughty. He brings them low. He opposes what they are rather than responding in kind.

Well I am biased by the KJV translation (I grew up on it). Actually it seems to be kind of interesting to translate this section, so let's do a word study:

New International Version
to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the devious you show yourself shrewd.

New Living Translation
To the pure you show yourself pure, but to the wicked you show yourself hostile.

English Standard Version
with the purified you deal purely, and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous.

New American Standard Bible
With the pure You show Yourself pure, And with the perverted You show Yourself astute.

King James Bible
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
with the pure You prove Yourself pure, but with the crooked You prove Yourself shrewd.

International Standard Version
In the company of the pure you demonstrate your purity. In the company of the perverted you will appear to be perverse.

NET Bible
You prove to be reliable to one who is blameless, but you prove to be deceptive to one who is perverse.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
with pure people you are pure. [In dealing] with devious people you are clever.

Jubilee Bible 2000
With the pure thou art pure, and with the perverse thou art an adversary.

King James 2000 Bible
With the pure you will show yourself pure; and with the devious you will show yourself shrewd.

American King James Version
With the pure you will show yourself pure; and with the fraudulent you will show yourself unsavory.

American Standard Version
With the pure thou wilt show thyself pure; And with the perverse thou wilt show thyself froward.

Douay-Rheims Bible
With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

Darby Bible Translation
With the pure thou dost shew thyself pure; And with the perverse thou dost shew thyself contrary.

English Revised Version
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the perverse thou wilt shew thyself froward.

Webster's Bible Translation
With the pure thou wilt show thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt contend.

World English Bible
With the pure you will show yourself pure. With the crooked you will show yourself shrewd.

Young's Literal Translation
With the pure Thou shewest Thyself pure, And with the perverse Thou shewest Thyself a wrestler.

It seems to match the NT adage, "if you forgive you'll be forgiven, but if you don't forgive it won't be forgiven you." Or, "If you don't show mercy, no mercy will be shown you." Of course God is merciful - but if you don't give it you don't get it. What you do is what you get.

The first part is easy: with the pure God shows Himself as He is. "Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God." God is holy, and we are to be holy, as God is. But what if we're perverted? God will suddenly reveal something different to us. Not that God is perverted, or that we can make God perverted. But the sudden torment of our path will reveal the torment that was hidden within.

If we come to a large and heavily-cited section of scripture and declare it to be essentially dead letters, what does that show about our interpretative style? Perhaps God is using the Bible to reveal the heart of the interpreter. If the Bible expositor says that the Bible has degraded sections, or is partly fallen and natural writings, then I say that arguably the interpreter's ministry has degraded parts. And these are being revealed to all, by God.

But my poetic license probably didn't carry too well. Probably some of my writing that I think the point is clear, many people go, "Huh? I don't get it". Thanks for pointing out how easy it is to mis-read my ideas.

[aron]

Let me try again: When God showed WL that there were significant sections of scripture which were deficient of revelation, and simply the vain imagination of fallen men, then God was showing us, through this, that there were significant sections of WL's ministry which were deficient of revelation, and simply his vain imagination.

But maybe that is completely unrelated to that verse in Psalm 18. It certainly seemed relevant, to me.

[Ohio]

New International Version
to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the devious you show yourself shrewd.

King James Bible
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.

Originally Posted by aron

The first part is easy: with the pure God shows Himself as He is. "Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God." God is holy, and we are to be holy, as God is. But what if we're perverted? God will suddenly reveal something different to us. Not that God is perverted, or that we can make God perverted. But the sudden torment of our path will reveal the torment that was hidden within.

I have seen many examples of this in the "alternative views" section of the forum. The point is simple -- if you see problems with God, then the real problem is your own heart.

This verse helps me to understand people.

I'll have to remember this verse in Psalms 18.25

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The point is simple -- if you see problems with God, then the real problem is your own heart.

This verse helps me to understand people.

And the solution is arguably also simple. The ekklesia. The assembly. The gathered church. Fellowship.

When we come together and somebody begins to manifest a spirit that is driving them off the reservation, the collective enterprise leans toward them in prayer, in exhortation, in correction (if done very, very carefully!) and, especially, in example. The wandering star sees the others fixed in the firmament and is encouraged to resume their rightful place.

In the assembly of WL, the sole purpose of the assembly was to "amen" whatever he spoke. So if his "alternative views" got too extreme, and some of the faint-hearted slipped out the back door, there were always a few die-hards around who's mantra was that WL was always right. Even when he said the scriptures were wrong (fallen, degraded, vain, dark, etc). So we took the so-called revelation of the so-called apostle over the plain words of scriptures.

Contrast this to the reception of the scriptures in the NT writings. (see my next post).

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Contrast this to the reception of the scriptures in the NT writings...

Look at the reception of scripture in Acts 13 by Paul.

14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.

19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.

21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

30 But God raised him from the dead:

31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

There are 5 OT scriptures used in this chapter, and I want to focus on the 3 linked together in verses 33, 34, and 35, which I bolded. Paul used Psalm 2, Isaiah 55, and Psalm 16. Now, David was a sinner. An adulterer, a murderer, and a proud man whose pride got him, and Israel, in trouble. Yet where do we see cautionary words to take only certain verses as indicative of God's favor, promise, and blessing, while panning others as merely products of David's vain imagination? No -- rather, usage continually suggests that there's further blessing if the reader would peruse the source text. There's an open invitation to dig further. To me it's quite obviously understood by the usage.

Look at verses 36 and 37. David died and was buried, and his grave remains with us today. But God fulfilled this word in his Son. To me, this is exactly the argument Peter used in Acts 2; Paul also used it here. The "vanity" of David was not the focus of Peter or Paul, but rather the fulfillment in David's promised seed. But WL seemed stumbled, instead, by the vanity of David. Because of what? God's economy? Both Peter and Paul in their scriptural exegeses had no problems looking beyond the "corruption" of David and seeing the incorrupt One who followed. Why did WL's interpretive scheme fail him here?

... if you see problems with God, then the real problem is your own heart..

WL didn't see problems with God, as much as he had problems with God's word. The psalmist wrote, "You [God] have rescued me" and WL said, "No, God didn't rescue him. David rescued himself." O really? Where is our precedent for this interpretation? See WL's footnotes in Psalm 34, for example. David had told Saul, "The God who rescued me from the paw of the lion and the bear will rescue me from this uncircumcised Philistine." So, David violated God's salvation by throwing a stone at Goliath? Who saved David, his sling, or God? Clearly scripture repeatedly shows David's trust, and God subsequently saving and protecting David. But WL overturned this because... I don't know... "God's eternal economy"? The "sure mercies of David" got by-passed because David was... a sinner? I don't know. When Paul and Barnabas told them to "continue in the grace of God" in Acts 13:45, what grace was that, pray tell?

If the ekklesia had functioned as it should, this hash that WL made of the scriptures would have been challenged, I'm pretty sure of that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

If the ekklesia had functioned as it should, this hash that WL made of the scriptures would have been challenged, I'm pretty sure of that.

Actually the ekklesia did function as it should; it merely resulted in quarantines, storms, rebellions, and the like.