Signs of Decline in LSMs Recovery - Tomes

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Well there you have it, folks. God's mouthpiece who recovers God's truth, and is satisfied even with only ten or twenty faithfully meeting together to practice this truth, which he has recovered. While some six billion others on this planet...what are they doing? What truth are they practicing?

Is this man some kind of god himself, that he would make such a declaration? Who is this man?

To me, this all explains why LC numbers are so small. I think that the BB's and LC elders honestly believe that they can gain loads of people, and that is why there putting forth the effort to do so. The reality of the situation, however, is that WL had a very different attitude to getting the increase he wanted. He spoke publicly about it, but then when it didn't work out, he would shell up and claim how he needed only a few people who were loyal to him.

So what if all the saints who were out doing BFA activities or working on campuses, knew what WL said: "I only care for ten to twenty faithful ones meeting together to practice the truth." Statements like that pretty much negate the value of any gospel work people in the LC are doing.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

To me, this all explains why LC numbers are so small. I think that the BB's and LC elders honestly believe that they can gain loads of people, and that is why there putting forth the effort to do so. The reality of the situation, however, is that WL had a very different attitude to getting the increase he wanted. He spoke publicly about it, but then when it didn't work out, he would shell up and claim how he needed only a few people who were loyal to him.

So what if all the saints who were out doing BFA activities or working on campuses, knew what WL said: "I only care for ten to twenty faithful ones meeting together to practice the truth." Statements like that pretty much negate the value of any gospel work people in the LC are doing.

It's heartening that they are self defeating.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Freedom

So what if all the saints who were out doing BFA activities or working on campuses, knew what WL said: "I only care for ten to twenty faithful ones meeting together to practice the truth." Statements like that pretty much negate the value of any gospel work people in the LC are doing.

But of course, some of the faithful loyalists are aware of these statements. Psychoanalyze that...

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

To me, this all explains why LC numbers are so small. I think that the BB's and LC elders honestly believe that they can gain loads of people, and that is why there putting forth the effort to do so. The reality of the situation, however, is that WL had a very different attitude to getting the increase he wanted. He spoke publicly about it, but then when it didn't work out, he would shell up and claim how he needed only a few people who were loyal to him.

So what if all the saints who were out doing BFA activities or working on campuses, knew what WL said: "I only care for ten to twenty faithful ones meeting together to practice the truth." Statements like that pretty much negate the value of any gospel work people in the LC are doing.

What is really the purpose of gospel work?
To lead men and women to Christ?
Or is it to proselytize?
As to why LC numbers are so small. The nature of the recovery had changed over the last 25-30 years. The recovery has become ministry churches. If a brother or sister is not for the ministry, they will not fit into the local church.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

To me, this all explains why LC numbers are so small. I think that the BB's and LC elders honestly believe that they can gain loads of people, and that is why there putting forth the effort to do so. The reality of the situation, however, is that WL had a very different attitude to getting the increase he wanted. He spoke publicly about it, but then when it didn't work out, he would shell up and claim how he needed only a few people who were loyal to him.

That statement that Lee made was extremely manipulative and totally dishonest.

I was there when he made it, at least one of the times. It was designed to tug at your heart to coerce us into a more absolute consecration to Lee's commands. Dont believe for one second that Lee was content with ten or twenty followers, neither did he want those who just "practice the truth." His overriding demand was for unfailing and unquestioning loyalty to his leadership. To his inner blended circle of loyalists, they would "leave all" to follow him, including their wife and kids. Then they could feel the "glory of true discipleship," just as the earliest disciples who left all to follow Jesus.

Think about the implications of that. Lee wanted to be their "jesus." That alone was the entrance requirement for being truly "blended."

Most of us at the time never understood what Lee was doing.

[YP0534]

Still at it, eh?

Grace to you all, but this morning I was reminded that the Lord still speaks in my speaking. I don't know why I was led here after that but I'm definitely not settling in to rejoin the rehashing. I just don't even have time. The Lord has led me many light years away from this place and, I guess, given me this word:

No human effort will yield improved sight.
He is the unique eyesalve.

[UntoHim]

Hi YP, nice to "see" you again.

Yeah, we're still at it, and we probably will be for as long as all those dear brothers and sisters in the Local Church are trapped within a system of error.
This is the main reason why this forum exists. Of course there are lot's of reasons why people participate in the forum and that's ok too.

I am pretty sure the numbers in Europe are inflated. A group of LCer's came visiting our church (we didn't know who\what they were at the time) and as I was reading on the internet about Witness Lee, I ran across an update on Europe where they were claiming all the members of our church for the "recovery". We didn't even realize we were being counted as a part of the Lord's Recovery Just from that experience, I am pretty sure that they are not honest with their updates and numbers. They came to us as wolves in sheep's clothing and I trust nothing that comes out of that organization.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am pretty sure the numbers in Europe are inflated. A group of LCer's came visiting our church (we didn't know who\what they were at the time) and as I was reading on the internet about Witness Lee, I ran across an update on Europe where they were claiming all the members of our church for the "recovery". We didn't even realize we were being counted as a part of the Lord's Recovery Just from that experience, I am pretty sure that they are not honest with their updates and numbers. They came to us as wolves in sheep's clothing and I trust nothing that comes out of that organization.

WOW You would think this fellow would be so happy about being "part of the Lord's Recovery"......NOT!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am pretty sure the numbers in Europe are inflated. A group of LCer's came visiting our church (we didn't know who\what they were at the time) and as I was reading on the internet about Witness Lee, I ran across an update on Europe where they were claiming all the members of our church for the "recovery". We didn't even realize we were being counted as a part of the Lord's Recovery Just from that experience, I am pretty sure that they are not honest with their updates and numbers. They came to us as wolves in sheep's clothing and I trust nothing that comes out of that organization.

Very interesting. They must have some nerve to do that. I'm afraid they can get away with it too, if people don't know what's really going on.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am pretty sure the numbers in Europe are inflated. A group of LCer's came visiting our church (we didn't know who\what they were at the time) and as I was reading on the internet about Witness Lee, I ran across an update on Europe where they were claiming all the members of our church for the "recovery". We didn't even realize we were being counted as a part of the Lord's Recovery Just from that experience, I am pretty sure that they are not honest with their updates and numbers. They came to us as wolves in sheep's clothing and I trust nothing that comes out of that organization.

It wouldn't be the first time numbers or statistics would be inflated or manipulated. The following is from John So's 1990 Testimony in Manila on page 6

I wasn’t opposing or anything fermenting within me. I’m sorry to say, dear saints, I think there is a plot, a conspiracy, there, not on our part, but on somebody else’s part to bring the churches in Europe and myself under a certain leading—under the, sorry to say, the hidden function of the office. That I must confess I do not, I just cannot fully agree. But that doesn’t mean that if I don’t agree, I oppose. I went to Taipei. I went to Taipei. I joined the door knocking. Okay, I enjoyed it. You might not believe me, but I really enjoyed it. In fact, I fully submitted to the group. You can ask my group leaders, I baptized a few people, really. And I am quite fond of that whole group. But when I was there, listen, one major leading brother in Taipei every time he saw me, he told me that the statistics were manipulated. That’s the word I think he used. I said, “Are you sure brother?” He said, “Yes.”

I believe one of Nigel's writings addressed the issue of statistics also.

[awareness]

The product often falls way short of the sales pitch. It's common business practice. It's not even thought of as lying.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

It wouldn't be the first time numbers or statistics would be inflated or manipulated. The following is from John So's 1990 Testimony in Manila on page 6

I wasn’t opposing or anything fermenting within me. I’m sorry to say, dear saints, I think there is a plot, a conspiracy, there, not on our part, but on somebody else’s part to bring the churches in Europe and myself under a certain leading—under the, sorry to say, the hidden function of the office. That I must confess I do not, I just cannot fully agree. But that doesn’t mean that if I don’t agree, I oppose. I went to Taipei. I went to Taipei. I joined the door knocking. Okay, I enjoyed it. You might not believe me, but I really enjoyed it. In fact, I fully submitted to the group. You can ask my group leaders, I baptized a few people, really. And I am quite fond of that whole group. But when I was there, listen, one major leading brother in Taipei every time he saw me, he told me that the statistics were manipulated. That’s the word I think he used. I said, “Are you sure brother?” He said, “Yes.”

I believe one of Nigel's writings addressed the issue of statistics also.

I've never felt comfortable with the way the LC presents statistics. Even when statistics are left intact, it seems the brothers tend to exaggerate the significance of numbers presented. Even when they talk about what could happen, they have no realistic expectations. I've been to meetings where the brothers find some excerpt from WL's ministry where he said things like "so such and such and the church will have a 100% increase in a year". Everyone knows stuff like that isn't going to happen, yet the brothers can say it with a straight face.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

It wouldn't be the first time numbers or statistics would be inflated or manipulated.

And when numbers are a focus outside of using them to suggest that more space is needed, there is something wrong. No church is ignorant of their numbers. But the ones that dote on them and try to argue them to as high a level as possible are, at a minimum, misaiming.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Still at it, eh?

Grace to you all, but this morning I was reminded that the Lord still speaks in my speaking. I don't know why I was led here after that but I'm definitely not settling in to rejoin the rehashing. I just don't even have time. The Lord has led me many light years away from this place and, I guess, given me this word:

No human effort will yield improved sight.
He is the unique eyesalve.

So wonderful to hear from an old friend.

Thanks for the gems that point us back to Him.