Transfered from Introduction Thread

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

I'm not sure about the sanitized Bible. But I agree that the version of doctrines on certain topics is somewhat "creative" (maybe that is the right word).

Great way to put it. Yeah but if a sweet little old lady after worship service tells you that you will be with pets in heaven all you can do is just pat her head smile and go on your way.

Truth is, when it comes to both heaven and hell what we get is creative hocus-pocus.

Not only do we have nothing well developed about going to heaven in the New Testament, from what I read in the canonical record, hell is thrown into the lake of fire. It's called the second death, or some sort. Then you better be in the book of life or, it's the lake of fire for you too. Then the new heaven (shiny new surely) and new earth. And no more tears.

Sounds like heaven to me, even if just the new earth.

So those that are in the book of life will be in what all of us today would call heaven.

So Dave is wrong. The NT does teach heaven ... it's just that we have to contrive another book of the NT, that is formed from gathering puzzle pieces of hints here and there, of verses from the NT ... to form conclusions for what it doesn't say outright ... forming in the end a non-canonical book, added to the collective-Christian-consciousness. Think Dante.

So let's thrown out our conceptions of heaven and hell too.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

Great way to put it. Yeah but if a sweet little old lady after worship service tells you that you will be with pets in heaven all you can do is just pat her head smile and go on your way.

Truth is, when it comes to both heaven and hell what we get is creative hocus-pocus.

Not only do we have nothing well developed about going to heaven in the New Testament, from what I read in the canonical record, hell is thrown into the lake of fire. It's called the second death, or some sort. Then you better be in the book of life or, it's the lake of fire for you too. Then the new heaven (shiny new surely) and new earth. And no more tears.

Sounds like heaven to me, even if just the new earth.

So those that are in the book of life will be in what all of us today would call heaven.

So Dave is wrong. The NT does teach heaven ... it's just that we have to contrive another book of the NT, that is formed from gathering puzzle pieces of hints here and there, of verses from the NT ... to form conclusions for what it doesn't say outright ... forming in the end a non-canonical book, added to the collective-Christian-consciousness. Think Dante.

So let's thrown out our conceptions of heaven and hell too.

I prefer not to. I am willing to accept that there is something, but that it was not spelled-out in literal terms. I believe that there is punishment and there is reward, but again, the metaphorical constructs of Revelation do not provide details, just images. Given the dramatic scenes drawn, I am not willing to just write it off.

But all of this "can we just fly to wherever, or just suddenly be there" stuff just makes me want to puke. It could be. But it is a complete missing of the relevance of what is told. It is not there to pine away about, but to make us approach this life soberly. Whether it is literally life on golden streets v living in fire, or life in Rocky Mountain National Park v life in a condemned tenement house in Hoboken watching B-rated Bollywood movies for eternity, I think I know what I choose. And it isn't Bollywood. (No offense to Bollywood, but like a lot of things, when it is already the second-rated offering and it just isn't your culture, what do you expect?)

And the point is not to think about what I can layer onto the metaphors (flying, mansions, better golf, etc.)