The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Dave

I remember reading some parts of this book years ago as well as the The Spiritual Man. Nee was heavily influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis as I read her books as well. If you try to follow this stuff you will go nuts-literally. It's not for the faint of heart. Nee tries to show that it is all Biblical but the Bible, for example in the NT - Paul's writings, are heavy sledding in many parts so it is not just Nee. It's the Bible in many parts of the OT and especially in John and many of Paul's writings. Heavy sledding and people think they have it figured out but they are still working on it. Love God, love your brother...the rest will work itself out.

I remember in one of the trainings I went to a number of years ago, the brother speaking (probably Ron) was warning us against reading Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings. I think it was either the "Spiritual Warfare" or "War on the Saints" book that was mentioned in particular. I thought it was ironic because I was already aware that both Nee and Lee were influenced by her.

At any rate, it has always bothered me that no one in the LC ever gives things like this a little bit of thought. If Nee was influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings, yet we are being warned against reading her writings, what does that imply?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I remember in one of the trainings I went to a number of years ago, the brother speaking (probably Ron) was warning us against reading Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings. I think it was either the "Spiritual Warfare" or "War on the Saints" book that was mentioned in particular. I thought it was ironic because I was already aware that both Nee and Lee were influenced by her.

At any rate, it has always bothered me that no one in the LC ever gives things like this a little bit of thought. If Nee was influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings, yet we are being warned against reading her writings, what does that imply?

Have you read that JP-L was instrumental to debilitate Evan Roberts and his evangelical work during the Welch Revival?

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you read that JP-L was instrumental to debilitate Evan Roberts and his evangelical work during the Welch Revival?

This is not true. On the contrary.

Evan Roberts was emotionally unbalanced and was physically very weak. This took a heavy toll on his body and mental state and he had numerous nervous breakdowns. Jessie Penn-Lewis and her husband took him in and he stayed with them for several years. I would rather suggest that she and her husband helped him to recover and they allowed him to stay with them until he felt he was ready to resume his preaching. This simply did not materialize any time soon.

Around 1914 he surprised many by declaring that the Lord would return that year. This alienated him from many, even those close to him. His biggest problem is that he found very little acceptance among the clergy in Wales. He only started with his training to become an ordained pastor but he never completed his studies. This was the reason many looked down on him as "unqualified and untrained".

When you read the reports of the Welsh revival of 1904–1905 (often referred to as "awakenings") you cannot but help to conclude that it was much more about the person and style of Evan Roberts. When he stopped preaching after suffering a serious breakdown, the "revival" died a quick death.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you read that JP-L was instrumental to debilitate Evan Roberts and his evangelical work during the Welch Revival?

Originally Posted by Friedel

This is not true. On the contrary.

Evan Roberts was emotionally unbalanced and was physically very weak. This took a heavy toll on his body and mental state and he had numerous nervous breakdowns. Jessie Penn-Lewis and her husband took him in and he stayed with them for several years. I would rather suggest that she and her husband helped him to recover and they allowed him to stay with them until he felt he was ready to resume his preaching. This simply did not materialize any time soon.

Of course we can't know what really went on between Roberts and JP-L. Some claim that Roberts fell under "Jezzie's" spell.

But does that really concern US? What concerns us is Nee and Lee. They're much closer to us. Lee came down from Nee. Nee came down from Penn-Lewis.

And after being acquainted with both sides of Nee -- his ministry and private life -- it's no surprise Nee was drawn to demonology.

Why? Because he was struggling with his own demons. At the same time he was delivering a unbelievable ministry, he was also falling for the forbidden fruit of women. And. In "The Latent Power of the Soul," he speaks of the latent power of the soul .. no dah. His ministry proves he was no stranger to that power. In his early days, when he was falling weak to the flesh, the saints looked up to him like he was a deity. Talk about fighting demons.

And of course, much closer up, we have come to be acquainted with Lee's demons.

What roll did Penn-Lewis play in all this, and by the way, G.H. Pember? We'll never fully know.

But there's enough there to smell a rat.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I remember in one of the trainings I went to a number of years ago, the brother speaking (probably Ron) was warning us against reading Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings. I think it was either the "Spiritual Warfare" or "War on the Saints" book that was mentioned in particular. I thought it was ironic because I was already aware that both Nee and Lee were influenced by her.

At any rate, it has always bothered me that no one in the LC ever gives things like this a little bit of thought. If Nee was influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings, yet we are being warned against reading her writings, what does that imply?

"Institutionally speaking, the Shanghai Assembly was the de facto headquarters of the Little Flock Movement in China. The authority was concentrated in the hands of "God's apostles" (Shen de sheetu), namely Watchman Nee and his female co-workers, Li Yuanru, Wang Peizhen, and Yu Chenghua, who were famous evangelists before joining the Little Flock. The Home of Deacons (zhishi zhijia) at Guling in Fuzhou was the national training center of Little Flock leaders while the Gospel Bookstore (fuyin shufang) in Shanghai published Christian pamphlets. There were many such business enterprises run by Watchman Nee in support of the Little Flock activities."

In addition to running numerous business enterprises, Nee was evidently a large land-holder, as well. By his late 20s, Nee was one of the foremost Christian apologists in China, free to do what he wanted. He was a rock star, who could think, do, or say whatever he wanted.

In the article covers interpenetration of the Communists and the Little Flock operatives, after WWII. The narrative is very different from what we heard. The Little Flock had true power - political, social, economic. Many government leaders were Little Flock members, functioning as moles. And vice-versa. Why do you think there was a lag between Communists taking over in 1949, and Nee's arrest in 1952, and then four years between his arrest and eventual trial? Because the two heavy-weights were sorting it out. Eventually in 1956 the communists attacked the Little Flock leadership and broke its power completely.

But before 1956, the LF had a lot of secular power in China. It's a different reality than what we were fed. Watchman Nee and the Little Flock Movement in Maoist China, by Joseph Tse-Hei Lee. Church History; 2005;74(1)

Hello,

I stumbled on this article from https://www.thepathoftruth.com/false...gglesworth.htm.

It’s addressing two people Nee and Wigglesworth (never heard of this guy), so some quotes might be confusing.

Couple of interesting takes on Nee. I will quote couple of paragraphs here from the article.

“Here are two spiritual giants of human willpower, attempting to be Christian by great works and sacrifices that come to naught.”

“………Nee taught that we have to be ever sensitive to the ‘revealing’ of the Spirit’s will in our spirit and move from that.”

That is an expression of pure abominable self-righteousness. “See how sensitive I am to the Spirit,” he proclaims. The man was a peacock in perpetual fanning. And saints know they’re looking at the backside.

Yes, Nee suffered great persecution; he was imprisoned; I understand he even had his tongue cut out by the authorities because he refused to stop “witnessing” and “preaching the Gospel,” but not because he was a true witness of the Lord Jesus Christ. He bore witness by his own will and in his own power. He wasn’t working with Jesus as Jesus worked with the Father.”

“…….Nee spoke some truth, but he operated from his carnal intellect and human will. That’s why his teachings are dead rather than life-giving. “Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies” (1 Corinthians 8:1 MKJV).

What’s the difference between our doctrinal teachings and others’ like Nee? Besides some specifics (not negligible ones, either) we call for repentance and the taking up of the cross by faith, according to God’s definition of those things. Only He can show a person this difference.

Here’s an example exposing Nee in the unrepentance of his uncrucified life. The following was sent to us by someone quoting Nee from his book, Spiritual Reality or Obsession, impressed by his spirituality:

“If we refuse to accept the discipline of the Holy Spirit, we deny to HIM the opportunity to lead us into spiritual reality.

We need once again to consecrate ourselves more completely and more thoroughly so as to give the Spirit of the LORD a chance to perfect HIS work and to guide us into spiritual reality.”

Are we the ones giving God a chance, or is He the One perfecting whom He chooses? Hands down, it’s the latter.

“You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you may ask the Father in My Name He may give to you” (John 15:16 EMTV).

“Spiritual reality is trueness. It is the truth which sets us free. Oftentimes a Christian fails to touch trueness and falls into falsehood instead. He is deceived and bound by falsehood. He does not clearly see the true character of a thing; yet he considers himself clear. What he thinks and does is wrong, but reckons himself to be most right. Such a condition we call ‘obsession.’”

Nee was describing himself. He was obsessed with his own righteousness and religiosity. He dwelt in the philosophy of his mind and drove himself to live accordingly by his willpower. It was his work. But those who believe the Lord Jesus Christ dwell in Him, and He in them does the work. They don’t try to carry the impossible weight of being their own saviors, which is what Nee was truly preaching and doing.”

IDK, but some of these points are pretty spot on, and for those of us who read some of his books and been told of many things that were “kind of true”, or “a bit changed by the LSM to sound more dramatic”. about who Nee really was.

……………………………………

P.S

Also, this book mentioned in this thread should have exposed Nee for who he truly was, but the people of the local church have hid it, and I have been told never to read this book. I found this post to be interesting and reminded me of something that happened in my own life.

We all know how reserved the culture in the Recovery can be. We also know how tight-lipped the leadership can be. How many such cases must it have taken before they would make such a public announcement?

How many people have gone from the Full-Time Training to psychiatrists? How many people have left the Full-Time Training early in a state of mental exhaustion? How many people have left the Full-Time Training early due to physical symptoms which may have been brought on by prolonged/chronic stress?

Very serious stuff, folks.

I did a few jobs for our state highway patrol academy in years past. What stood out the most from those days, is the way the lieutenants treat the cadets on daily bases. It was as if they are worst than dirt on the side of the road. Those cadets were told to give salutes to everyone on the property regardless of rank and as long as one is not in cadet uniform. I would get constant “good morning Sir, good afternoon Sir, with almost a full military salute” as they would be walking by. I saw them take a baton from one of the cadets during lunch, and toss it across the cafeteria and have him go fetch it like a dog, only to be told that it was his fault that it was dropped on the floor.

I got to talk to one of these lieutenants once, and asked him “why do you treat these young men this way?”, and he answered, “the goal of these exercises is to completely break an individual to nothing, make him feel like he is lower than a everything that exist, psychologically, emotionally, and physically, so that after that portion is complete, I can mold out of them anything I wish!”

That sounded as something I have heard from some FTTA trainees over the years. Unfortunately, the lieutenants of the local church are very good at breaking people to nothing, it’s the second part that they have zero clue about. By the way, I have never found any scriptural bases for these kind of trainings or to what they do to these young men and women in there. No wonder that some that make it through it, look, sound, act, speak, even have the same gestures as Witness Lee did. So much for pointing people to God, and following Jesus Christ as they claim to do!

[Trapped]

Unregistered,

Great observations. I think I have mentioned a couple times on the forum that a frequent comment from many trainees, after graduating after two years in the FTT and coming back to their locality, was, "I don't know how to be".

They really had been broken down. A schedule full of deadlines throughout the day, running them all over here and there, punishments for any infraction, whether a missed deadline, whether a hair on their bed, whether a wrinkle in their sheets, whether talking past curfew, whether wearing a piece of red clothing, etc.... they were punished with assignments to read the very ministry that was supposed to be nourishing to them, some of them reaching the end of their term with a large backlog of punishments. Some of them received letters in their cubbies indicating that their infraction meant that they had a divided heart or were not absolute for the Lord. Stories of leading brothers raiding sisters kitchens for things like coffee (IIRC), etc...

And any failure in this environment is heightened to the extreme because they feel like they are a failure before God. Not loving God enough, not living up to His expectations, never good enough, ever.

This is not a place where people's children go to get built up.

Too many are as you describe - they leave the FTT with mental problems or health problems they did not have before. There is a known percentage of people in the training on antidepressants or medications of that nature....known because the doctor brothers and sisters prescribe them, rather than lobby to have changes made for the sake of the trainees instead.

On the flipside, I know cell phones did not used to be allowed, and now they are. I also think they extended the allowed sleep time by 30 minutes due to so many reports of exhaustion. So no, they are not total monsters, but ...... their claim that this is the "best place for a young man in God's plan" or whatever is a complete lie.

Trapped

Originally Posted by Trapped

Unregistered,

Great observations. I think I have mentioned a couple times on the forum that a frequent comment from many trainees, after graduating after two years in the FTT and coming back to their locality, was, "I don't know how to be".

They really had been broken down. A schedule full of deadlines throughout the day, running them all over here and there, punishments for any infraction, whether a missed deadline, whether a hair on their bed, whether a wrinkle in their sheets, whether talking past curfew, whether wearing a piece of red clothing, etc.... they were punished with assignments to read the very ministry that was supposed to be nourishing to them, some of them reaching the end of their term with a large backlog of punishments. Some of them received letters in their cubbies indicating that their infraction meant that they had a divided heart or were not absolute for the Lord. Stories of leading brothers raiding sisters kitchens for things like coffee (IIRC), etc...

And any failure in this environment is heightened to the extreme because they feel like they are a failure before God. Not loving God enough, not living up to His expectations, never good enough, ever.

This is not a place where people's children go to get built up.

Too many are as you describe - they leave the FTT with mental problems or health problems they did not have before. There is a known percentage of people in the training on antidepressants or medications of that nature....known because the doctor brothers and sisters prescribe them, rather than lobby to have changes made for the sake of the trainees instead.

On the flipside, I know cell phones did not used to be allowed, and now they are. I also think they extended the allowed sleep time by 30 minutes due to so many reports of exhaustion. So no, they are not total monsters, but ...... their claim that this is the "best place for a young man in God's plan" or whatever is a complete lie.

Trapped

No pun intended, I don’t believe that anyone with a sound mind would send their child to FTT, if they have any hope and faith in God. It’s only a person who has not only lost his way, but is willing to sacrifice their child on the altar of these spiritual exhibitionist like Lee and Nee, and the current crop of their contaminated fruit. Extravagant obsession with self righteousness, and untamed desire to redo or repeat the completed work of Christ, will lead to unequivocally dire tragedy, anguish and despair.

These trainings are nothing more than a set of exorcises of self will, derived from communist erudition, and some aspects that were concocted by Ignatius of Loyola, in his spiritual exercises manifesto. In its essence, they are opposed to God or any spiritual perspicacity, meant to raise religious coldhearted brutes, who for the sake of their wild unattainable maxims, would be willing to destroy even themselves. Martyrdom is the ultimate triumph, human pedestal is an alternative conquest!

We’ve seen both in the local church, nether of which brought any life or even a speck of veridical reality as was promised. Generations were and are being wrecked, without any or very little fighting back. People are petrified to stand up, forfeit everything if necessary, to gain the ultimate prize of freedom, liberty, which can only be received by trusting in what already has been accomplished for everyone! Do it yourself kits, are more attractive and more fulfilling on the outside, which is the only thing that’s offered by the local church!

May God shine His light into this dark abyss, so that those that are truly seeking Him, will find redemption, but those that are fretful of the light will hightail like cowardly hyenas who prefer darkness to get their coveted prey!