The LCS Factor

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

No, Ohio,scriptural arguments have not been offered in “abundance.” I think that’s exaggeration. So is your statement that “neither has been heard.” I once heard a counselor say not to mix up “hearing” with “agreeing.” It would be more true to say “neither has been agreed with or accepted.”

I’m sorry for hastily saying there was no biblical balance offered. So far you and Roger have brought forth two posts with biblical arguments. So, yes, there was a some, but I believe these were greatly outweighed by the volume of responses without biblical argumentation. My statement was probably influenced by the fact that I have put out numerous biblical arguments on this thread that no one has responded to, except for Peter D. who responded to one of them. Care to respond to what I wrote in post # 750?

Thankful Jane

TJ, some of your comments are too obvious to respond to. I do not necessarily need to quote a verse to speak the word of God, in fact, all too often verses quoted neither support nor refute the point proffered. If I say that we should not categorically condemn all God's people as idolaters, how many scripture do I need?

Btw, post #750 is just too long for me to comment on.

And, also btw, "fair and balanced" can be well described by the word "forbearance." It is an excellent virtue of Christians. That's why it should be made known to others. In this godly virtue, the Lord is near. Some of the extreme views I have read here I would not want anyone to hear or know.

TJ, we can talk about this forever and get no where. The matter is simple. The N.T. does not support the extreme views on idolatry in all the LC's that are promoted by some on this thread. I personally feel, as I posted, that if the matter was that urgent for Israel, then the Lord would have addressed it while on earth, but he did not. Considering the breadth of topics covered in the gospels, this is legitimate.

You are entitled to your views also. Peace.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

... I do not necessarily need to quote a verse to speak the word of God, ...

Uh...yeah...I think you do. Maybe you'd better 'splain this one. As a minimum, whatever you must agree with scripture. Is that what you mean?

Nell

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Toledo

So it's okay to make a general slur and insult on a wide group of people, then claim it doesn't apply to some of the individuals you included...? I'm sure you didn't mean this as ungraciously as it sounds.

Hi Toledo,

Would you mind quoting the general slur [speaking in an insulting or demeaning way] and insult [rude or insensitive or contemptuous comment] that I made on a wide group of people. Maybe I did this, but I don’t remember doing it.

Originally Posted by Toledo

To be fair, I was very much a young brother while WL was still alive. I had very few dealings directly with him. Except for keeping the rules of his various trainings, I cannot say that he ever made any particular demands on me.

Originally Posted by Toledo

And, yes, I appreciated his teachings, even as I appreciated the teachings of Lewis Sperry Chafer that were remarkably similar.

You make two points here. I shall try to answer both:

1) I cannot recall ever being asked to do anything against God's word. However, I realize that time is both a balm and an anesthetic -- maybe I have forgotten or have hidden away some lapse of conscience. Do you, perhaps, have an example that may refresh my memory. I am not at all sure of what you mean.

Did you go along with the quarantining of John Ingalls and Bill Mallon? I think it is clear now that this was in violation of the Word. The Bible tells us to receive all whom Christ has received. Witness Lee unrighteously labeled them and put them out. His followers were told to do likewise. Maybe you weren’t there then, but that would be one example.

Originally Posted by Toledo

2) "{I}sn’t such serving of someone else other than God an act of idolatry?"

Originally Posted by Toledo

Idolatry has to do with the worship of idols. The "such serving" to which you refer would seem to be more of an act of disobedience. Eve ate an apple (whatever...), submitting to the serpent against God's word, yet the bible never calls her an idolater.

I'm not saying that you haven't put your finger on some very serious offenses in the local churches. Rather that calling it idolatry is forcing a definition that simply does not fit. As much as Cinderella's step-sisters tried, they could not get their feet into Prince Charming's glass slipper.

At the beginning of this thread djohnson kept referring to "Leeaholisim", a made up term, and Matt corrected him -- there is no such thing as "Leeaholism". Unfortunately, calling the problem idolatry doesn't fit any better (then insisting that everyone who ever met with the local churches bought into idolatry fits even less).

I think Matt used the term idolatry because it was a biblical term whose meaning contains the idea behind “Leeholism.”

Part of the problem we are having on this thread is understanding what idolatry is and if it has any application to believers. Do you think the Bible teaches that it is only applicable to literal idol worshippers, meaning heathen that bowed down to wood or stone or molten idols?

I find that many misunderstandings and stalemated arguments occur because of failure to have a common understanding of terms being used. What explanation or definition do you find in the Bible? If you could give me verses I would appreciate that.

Have you ever really studied this topic before? I just started seriously looking at it this year. Idolatry is everywhere in the Old Testament, especially among God’s people. I think we are foolish if we don’t consider seriously the possibility that it has application to us today. I don’t believe that idolatry just went away and as believers we don’t need to be warned by its dangers.

Heb 2:1-3 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Heb 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Since we can fall into the same example of unbelief as the children of Israel, it seems prudent that we should study and understand their failures. When I try to do that, I find idolatry everywhere. This tells me I need to seek to understand how idolatry applies to us as believers. Paul seemed to think it applied.

I have been surprised to discover how much God equates idolatry with unfaithfulness to Him and with fornication and even whoredoms, both in the Old and the New Testaments. When the children of Israel fell into idolatry he often called their actions harlotry. He was very jealous over them. Paul tells us God is also jealous over us. Studying idolatry has helped me understand that He wants to relate to each of us directly as a husband and doesn’t want anyone or anything to come between us and Him. The second commandment says, “For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God ...” Understanding the perils of idolatry, and realizing that I unknowingly fell into it, has helped me want to walk in the light of His intense love and jealously and zealously guard my relationship with Him.

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Ohio

TJ, some of your comments are too obvious to respond to. I do not necessarily need to quote a verse to speak the word of God, in fact, all too often verses quoted neither support nor refute the point proffered. If I say that we should not categorically condemn all God's people as idolaters, how many scripture do I need?

Ohio,
I never said all God’s people should be condemned as idolaters. Your misquoting is getting old. Sorry you find some of my comments "too obvious" to be worthy of a response. I try to respond to your comments out of respect without labeling them as unworthy in some way, but I’ll be happy to stop responding to them. Please be so kind as to stop responding to mine if you don’t want to have actual dialogue.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Btw, post #750 is just too long for me to comment on.

Sorry. I forgot how much you don’t like my long posts and that you have frequently complained about that, or I would not have pointed to this post. It has real content in it to which I was hoping someone would reply. Silly me for thinking you might. Sorry I couldn’t condense it into a few long catchy phrases. I prefer not to insult people’s intelligence and like to provide solid food for thought. I don’t know what makes me think that on a discussion forum people might not mind reading a page of material.

The Bible is kind of long too. It takes effort and time to get into that also. I guess pre-digested and leavened are a better way to go for some people.

Originally Posted by Ohio

And, also btw, "fair and balanced" can be well described by the word "forbearance." It is an excellent virtue of Christians. That's why it should be made known to others. In this godly virtue, the Lord is near. Some of the extreme views I have read here I would not want anyone to hear or know.

Forbearance doesn’t mean that in any dictionary I find. Words have meanings. Neither does my Bible list fair and balanced as a godly virtue. The Lord is not near unto those that are fair and balanced but unto those who have clean hands and a pure heart.

Originally Posted by Ohio

TJ, we can talk about this forever and get no where.

Right. It takes two willing people to have a real conversation before a conversation can go somewhere.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The matter is simple. The N.T. does not support the extreme views on idolatry in all the LC's that are promoted by some on this thread.

It is not an “extreme view” to say idolatry is being practiced by members of a very small group of believers (a very small percentage of the whole body of Christ) who got fixated on one man’s teaching and practices to such a degree that they could speak poorly of all other ministries and even exclude their real brothers from fellowship and never feel one pang of conscience when they did so. I agree with BlessD that this is far from the norm in most Christian circles. You did not escape this sin when you were in the LC any more than I did.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I personally feel, as I posted, that if the matter was that urgent for Israel, then the Lord would have addressed it while on earth, but he did not. Considering the breadth of topics covered in the gospels, this is legitimate.

You can restrict your beliefs to the red letters if you want. I think I’ll keep my whole Bible. I know it’s long, but God must have thought we could handle that.

Originally Posted by Ohio

You are entitled to your views also. Peace.

Likewise.

TJ

[Timotheist]

PR 11:1 A false balance is an abomination to the LORD,
But a just weight is His delight

.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I do not necessarily need to quote a verse to speak the word of God, in fact, all too often verses quoted neither support nor refute the point proffered.

Originally Posted by Timotheist

PR 11:1 A false balance is an abomination to the LORD,
But a just weight is His delight.

TJ, here is an example of looking into a concordance and quoting a verse which "neither supports nor refutes the point proffered." What does "fair and balanced" have to do with a "false balance?" Obviously, my phrase "fair and balanced," in the context of Solomon's retail exchange, is the same as a "just weight," which is "His delight."

No offense to Timotheist, maybe he was supporting my point, I don't know.

Long ago I became disgusted with the practice of "verse wars." They were played too often. I just have not seen any scripture which provides the sweeping judgment of idolatry upon all who ever sat in a LC meeting. The scripture I have seen required huge stretches of inference. Toledo said it well here, "Rather that calling it idolatry is forcing a definition that simply does not fit. As much as Cinderella's step-sisters tried, they could not get their feet into Prince Charming's glass slipper."

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

TJ, here is an example of looking into a concordance and quoting a verse which "neither supports nor refutes the point proffered." What does "fair and balanced" have to do with a "false balance?" Obviously, my phrase "fair and balanced," in the context of Solomon's retail exchange, is the same as a "just weight," which is "His delight."

In the context of the chapter, the balance is referring to a man's character, a balance of pride and humility.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

The Lord is ... near unto those ... who have clean hands and a pure heart.

I'm having trouble finding this delightful verse.

Can you show it to me so that I may give my Amen?

Thank you.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by YP0534

I'm having trouble finding this delightful verse.

Can you show it to me so that I may give my Amen?

Thank you.

Hi YP5034,

Sorry I'm so slow answering! I'm just too busy these days.

Here are the verses I was thinking of. I wasn’t giving an exact quote.

Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Another good verse is:

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Maybe I should have quoted them and substituted in fair and balanced to make my point. “Who shall stand in His holy place? He that is fair and balanced...” or “Let us draw near with a fair and balanced heart.”

Also, I saw your post about Matthew 23. I read a few commentaries about verse 3, which say this was referring to the law of Moses that they were supposed to be teachers of, not to any perversions of it. The Concordant Literal translation says, “All then whatever they should be saying to you, do ....”

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No, this bothered me. I had pangs of conscience long ago. That's why I separated myself from "the ministry." To be prejudiced and judgmental against other believers is wrong, but it cannot be used to support the crusade for the definition of idolatry.

Dear Ohio,

I didn’t use the words “prejudiced and judgmental.” I used the word “excluded.” That was a nice way of saying “cut off” or “rejected.” Those who assented to the rejection of Bill and John, were bowing down and serving someone other than God and were disobeying God’s word which says to receive all whom Christ has received. If they had been serving God, they would not have rejected these brothers.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Isn't it a little unfair to say that I believe only "red letter" words, when my real comment was just this: If the case against idolatry in God's people was so great, don't you think that the Lord would have mentioned it while on earth? Can we both be "fair and balanced?"

I told you already that I am not using fair and balanced, as commonly understood today, as a standard.

I chose to use “red letter words" as an abbreviated way to communicate my thought because “long” bugs you so much. The point I was making is that you seem unwilling to let the body of evidence weigh in that is found in the Old Testament which warns us of the dangers of bowing down and serving other gods. You seem to be unwilling to seriously consider its application to us just because Jesus didn’t mention “idolatry.” I told you that He did mention the concept when he said we could not serve two masters, and when he said we were to love God with 100% of our being. You didn’t respond to that. I am capable of participating on this thread without mentioning idolatry and still saying the same thing I am saying. It would just be a lot longer.

I hope I didn’t introduce any new material into this post and just responded to yours, so you won’t feel the need to respond to me again. I accept your position and do not wish to continue to dialogue directly with you about this. I feel I am wasting both your time and mine. Peace.

TJ

[Shawn]

Hi Toledo,

I wanted to recognize my distance from California and Texas concerning any participation in the quarantining of the brothers in that locality, but your mentioning of how you practiced in your locality the long suffering of ones who were disorderly was also how I observed the care for these ones in Pittsburgh.

The disruptions usually resulted in their decision to distance themselves from what they saw as problems with Witness Lee and any who would continue to receive his ministry, but I never witnessed a disfellowshipping or removal from mettings; with an open door offered to return if they so desired.

I only began to meet with the saints around this time, so my position was more of an observer than in any decision making process.

Shawn

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Psa 24:3-5 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Maybe I should have quoted them and substituted in fair and balanced to make my point. “Who shall stand in His holy place? He that is fair and balanced...” or “Let us draw near with a fair and balanced heart.”

TJ, all these are precious verses for sure, but I'm not understanding the sarcasm you continue to fling my way ever since I made a general comment about our posts needing to be "fair and balanced." To be exact, the verses you quoted only speak of "drawing near," while the verse I initially referred to stated "the Lord is near," following Paul's exhortation to "let your forbearance be known to all men." -- Phil 4.5

My point at the time was that forbearance could be described as "fair and balanced." It seems really strange to me that you have made my simple expression the center of attention. Are you now going to play with all scripture by inserting my little expression? My introduction of "fair and balanced" was only to be a catch phrase for poster interactions, it was never intended to replace the "full assurance of faith" or a "pure heart" towards the Lord.

A thousand insertions like this don't negate my original point. Quoting verses like this is not speaking the word of God, but rather the playing of games. I do believe these things are far below the standard of a person of your stature. We have had a friendly relationship for three years now, and it's quite troubling to watch it deteriorate over this matter of idolatry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

It is not an “extreme view” to say idolatry is being practiced by members of a very small group of believers (a very small percentage of the whole body of Christ) who got fixated on one man’s teaching and practices to such a degree that they could speak poorly of all other ministries and even exclude their real brothers from fellowship and never feel one pang of conscience when they did so. You did not escape this sin when you were in the LC any more than I did.

No, this bothered me. I had pangs of conscience long ago. That's why I separated myself from "the ministry." To be prejudiced and judgmental against other believers is wrong, but it cannot be used to support the crusade for the definition of idolatry.

Isn't it a little unfair to say that I believe only "red letter" words, when my real comment was just this: If the case against idolatry in God's people was so great, don't you think that the Lord would have mentioned it while on earth? Can we both be "fair and balanced?"

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Hi Toledo,

Would you mind quoting the general slur [speaking in an insulting or demeaning way] and insult [rude or insensitive or contemptuous comment] that I made on a wide group of people. Maybe I did this, but I don’t remember doing it.

Dear Jane,

I was replying to your remark that a broad brush is okay. I mentioned it because I thought it sounded much more ungracious than I would expect from you. I did not mean to imply that you had made such a slur. I apologize if I gave that sense; it was not at all my intent. However, I do not agree that it is okay to generally tar a wide group of people, then to simply say, if the shoe doesn't fit...

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Did you go along with the quarantining of John Ingalls and Bill Mallon? I think it is clear now that this was in violation of the Word. The Bible tells us to receive all whom Christ has received. Witness Lee unrighteously labeled them and put them out. His followers were told to do likewise. Maybe you weren’t there then, but that would be one example.

Excellent! Thank you. This is the sort of specific question to which I am able to respond.

I agree that this non-biblical (extra-biblical?) term "quarantine" is utterly contrary to the scripture. Paul advises that there is a way for us to deal with unruly brothers in a locality -- "put away the wicked man from among yourselves". However, I do not at all see how this would apply to any of the brothers who have been falsely "quarantined".

Nor do I see how a group of brothers can demand that all localities refuse to receive certain saints. In trying to do such a thing, they make themselves into a hierarchy and a headquarters. There is no such thing in the New Testament.

However, to be fair ("fair" is still okay, isn't it?), I had no idea that John Ingalls or Bill Mallon or John So or Don Rutledge had been "quarantined". I was told that the first three had rebelled and left, and I knew that Don had moved from Dallas, but that was the extent of my knowledge. In the area where I lived and served, I never heard the matter discussed. As far as I know, none of the churches in the midwest refused to receive the quarantined brothers.

I knew Don Rutledge personally and prayed for him regularly for the past many years. A bit less than a year ago, I got to see him again. He asked me what I thought about his being quarantined. I replied that I had never heard about it (which does not all set aside the possibility that I might have betrayed him if I had had the opportunity...).

I write all this as a reply to the "broad brush" that has been applied in this thread. Not all localities were the same, nor did all regions practice the same sort of controls.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I think Matt used the term idolatry because it was a biblical term whose meaning contains the idea behind “Leeholism.”

Part of the problem we are having on this thread is understanding what idolatry is and if it has any application to believers. Do you think the Bible teaches that it is only applicable to literal idol worshippers, meaning heathen that bowed down to wood or stone or molten idols?

Yes, pretty much. I recall reading the comment many years ago that Catholics worship idols of stone while Protestants worship idols of doctrine. I think that may be helpful. However, this thread has repeatedly insisted that anyone who ever was in the local churches bought into idolatry (present company excepted, of course...).

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I find that many misunderstandings and stalemated arguments occur because of failure to have a common understanding of terms being used. What explanation or definition do you find in the Bible? If you could give me verses I would appreciate that.

Sorry, though I mentioned the remark about Catholics and Protestants above, I confess that I cannot find any reference in the bible about idols, except those which refer to graven images of metal or stone. Aaron's golden calf comes to mind...

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Have you ever really studied this topic before? I just started seriously looking at it this year.

No, not really. I've never considered it to be much of an issue except for Catholics and the idol worshipers I met in the Far East.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Idolatry is everywhere in the Old Testament, especially among God’s people. I think we are foolish if we don’t consider seriously the possibility that it has application to us today. I don’t believe that idolatry just went away and as believers we don’t need to be warned by its dangers.

You make an interesting point -- one that I do not care to dismiss lightly. However, types and shadows are something of the Old Testament; the New Testament provided the anti-types and clear language. If it were intended that idolatry represent something more than the worship of stones, I would expect that the Lord Jesus, or Paul, or Peter, or James, or someone would have mentioned it.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Since we can fall into the same example of unbelief as the children of Israel, it seems prudent that we should study and understand their failures. When I try to do that, I find idolatry everywhere. This tells me I need to seek to understand how idolatry applies to us as believers. Paul seemed to think it applied.

Perhaps, though Paul could be remarkably clear on most things, yet he did not seem to bother claiming idolatry to be anything more than what was presented in the Old Testament. Consider his points in I Corinthians about meat offered to idols. He wasn't talking about anything more than pagan animal sacrifices.

Your argument for making idolatry something more than the worship of stones would carry more weight, perhaps, if idol worship did not continue to be a pervasive fact of life even in this age. Europe and Asia and Africa are full of stone idols that continue to be worshiped until this very day. North and South American as well are filled with Catholic idols. The worship of stones has not passed away, and we would do well to be aware of it.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I have been surprised to discover how much God equates idolatry with unfaithfulness to Him and with fornication and even whoredoms, both in the Old and the New Testaments. When the children of Israel fell into idolatry he often called their actions harlotry. He was very jealous over them. Paul tells us God is also jealous over us. Studying idolatry has helped me understand that He wants to relate to each of us directly as a husband and doesn’t want anyone or anything to come between us and Him. The second commandment says, “For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God ...” Understanding the perils of idolatry, and realizing that I unknowingly fell into it, has helped me want to walk in the light of His intense love and jealously and zealously guard my relationship with Him.

Again, you make some interesting points -- well worth pondering. However, it is still a long way away from proving the charge that everyone (or even most) in the local churches were and are still guilty of idolatry. I, for one, never worshiped a stone. Nor did I worship Witness Lee.

I am only just now finding out some of the more sordid things about the LSM. I cannot blame anyone for finding fault with such a sinful situation as apparently existed (and for all I know may still exist). While I regret to learn of such weaknesses, moral errors, and sins on the part of WL and his closest followers, that cannot take away from the help I received in the bible from this earthen vessel. I learn only too late that WL was not practicing the things which he taught.

All this leaves me to wonder which portions ought to be preserved and which portions ought to be abandoned. After much consideration, I am still left with the question of baby and bathwater.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Toledo

Yes, pretty much. I recall reading the comment many years ago that Catholics worship idols of stone while Protestants worship idols of doctrine. I think that may be helpful. However, this thread has repeatedly insisted that anyone who ever was in the local churches bought into idolatry (present company excepted, of course...).

One striking difference between the LSM/LC's and a few more "contemporary" congregations is the emphasis on worshiping God in song. The LC's would say that these songs are "too objective," and I do admit that at times I do miss singing some of the old LC hymns. This was one of the first items that I faced when I no longer could meet regularly with the LC's and "ventured" out into the greater body of Christ.

Yesterday I heard something in the assembly from a book that corresponded to Toledo's comments here. Something like: "Everybody worships something, and if it's not God ..." It struck me as kind of "broad brush," because of all the recent posts here that are have been on my mind. Then the speaker gave a little "worship" test, "follow their time and the money..." In other words, where someone spends all their time and money indicates what their heart worships.

I'm not saying I agree with this. Think about the busy mother overwhelmed by several small children who spends all her time and money on them. Is she worshiping her kids? How about those who work long hours to make ends meet. Are they worshiping their jobs?

But ... it is another point of view that some may espouse concerning the worship of idolatry by the children of God.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Toledo

Nor do I see how a group of brothers can demand that all localities refuse to receive certain saints. In trying to do such a thing, they make themselves into a hierarchy and a headquarters. There is no such thing in the New Testament.
Sorry, though I mentioned the remark about Catholics and Protestants above, I confess that I cannot find any reference in the bible about idols, except those which refer to graven images of metal or stone. Aaron's golden calf comes to mind...

... If it were intended that idolatry represent something more than the worship of stones, I would expect that the Lord Jesus, or Paul, or Peter, or James, or someone would have mentioned it.

All this leaves me to wonder which portions ought to be preserved and which portions ought to be abandoned. After much consideration, I am still left with the question of baby and bathwater.

Toledo, Regarding the NT & idols, John ends his first epistle with the cryptic, and to me pregnant phrase, "Little children, guard yourselves from idols." I think it is highly significant. John must have felt 1) that idol worship was going on, and 2) it needed to be especially addressed. So he ends not with a blessing, but a warning. His word to stay away from idols was the highest blessing he could bestow upon his spiritual children. But what was he referring to?

Regarding your "baby and bathwater" comment, I have often gone back and forth on that one. Still am, I suppose. I refuse to pretend a good chunk of my christian walk was worthless, that it was a big mistake, that I should have said "No" when someone invited me to a meeting, or turned on my heel the first time something dumb got said or did in my presence. If I walked out of every christian meeting when someone said something dumb I'd never finish any of them! I admit there is a pattern of stuff in the LC's, both teaching and practice, that violates both letter and spirit of God's word, & common sense to boot. But there were, & are, some good things that I still ascribe to God.

So I enjoy the 'sorting' process here on the forum. I just try to remember that all the LSM folks are going to meet me at the throne, & have a say, and so are the folks here on the "LCD" (Localchurchdiscussions-dot-com). I find it awfully tempting to thow out my 'expert opinion' at times, but the Lord reminds me that I am responsible for every word...

Peace, and thanks for your portion. aron

[YP0534]

Even as scathing as the Lord was against the scribes and Pharisess, He also at least once commended them to us:

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
Mat 23:3 all things therefore whatsoever they bid you, [these] do and observe: but do not ye after their works; for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 Yea, they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do to be seen of men: for they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders [of their garments],
Mat 23:6 and love the chief place at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 and the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called of men, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, [even] he who is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, [even] the Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter[.]
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.