The God who died

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

Witness Lee visited us in Santa Cruz in 1970 and I had dinner with him along with 3 others. It was at the daughter of Karl Hammond’s house...

Did you get invited because you were one of the top recruiters? Like the salesman who hits $100,000 in a month getting to meet the chairman?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

Did you get invited because you were one of the top recruiters? Like the salesman who hits $100,000 in a month getting to meet the chairman?

You might say something like that. Karl and I really started Santa Cruz from scratch and I guess it was like a reward for my efforts in helping to build S.C. On the other hand, I got along well with Karl even though he was a difficult person for most and he said he was "grooming" me to be an elder though at 24 I had no interest. Actually, I don't think I even understood the concept of being an elder. I was working the campuses bringing people to Jesus. In Santa Cruz there weren't a lot of other Christian groups which we could rob, unlike Detroit which was loaded with Christian groups. Of course, I didn't make any effort to bring in other Christians since Santa Cruz was a haven for unsaved people who were searching for answers. So, a goodly number of our "recruits" were those we brought in and baptized them in the Pacific Ocean. It was a wild time because of all the new people we had brought in. Even though WL later asked me to come to Detroit I wish I had stayed in Santa Cruz. It was the highlight of my LC experience.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Dave

Even though WL later asked me to come to Detroit I wish I had stayed in Santa Cruz. It was the highlight of my LC experience.

From my understanding, Santa Cruz was far enough away from LA and Anaheim that it could actually function as a genuine "local church", and not a branch office of the Local Church of Witness Lee/Living Stream Corp. I believe the same was true for Berkeley and maybe some others as well. Having been "born and raised" in Orange County (just minutes from Anaheim) I never got to experience anything like you did in Santa Cruz. The closest thing may have been when Lee initiated "The Young People's churches" (circa 1977) in Orange County - Costa Mesa, Irvine, Fullerton and some others. Those were some exciting times, and brought a breath of fresh air...but of course it was short-lived...Lee and some of his minions cooked up a great "rebellion", which of course had to be quashed. I was bussed up to Berkeley to that crazy, infamous Memorial Day conference (78?). We had barely been back a day or two and there was an emergency meeting called where Lee put down the hatchet. I remember that meeting well...one young person, usually an older one chosen to be the representative, was chosen to stand up and "repent" to Witness Lee as he sat in the front with a smug look of satisfaction. Looking back, if that didn't seal the deal of making us a personality cult, then I don't know what did.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The closest thing may have been when Lee initiated "The Young People's churches" (circa 1977) in Orange County - Costa Mesa, Irvine, Fullerton and some others. Those were some exciting times, and brought a breath of fresh air...but of course it was short-lived...Lee and some of his minions cooked up a great "rebellion", which of course had to be quashed. I was bussed up to Berkeley to that crazy, infamous Memorial Day conference (78?).

That would be May of 1977. We had our own version of "crazy" in Chicago.

I was part of two LC migrations. Definitely my most joyful and fruitful times. Both were subsequently damaged by meddling from headquarters, both Anaheim and Cleveland.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

From my understanding, Santa Cruz was far enough away from LA and Anaheim that it could actually function as a genuine "local church", and not a branch office of the Local Church of Witness Lee/Living Stream Corp. I believe the same was true for Berkeley and maybe some others as well. Having been "born and raised" in Orange County (just minutes from Anaheim) I never got to experience anything like you did in Santa Cruz. The closest thing may have been when Lee initiated "The Young People's churches" (circa 1977) in Orange County - Costa Mesa, Irvine, Fullerton and some others. Those were some exciting times, and brought a breath of fresh air...but of course it was short-lived...Lee and some of his minions cooked up a great "rebellion", which of course had to be quashed. I was bussed up to Berkeley to that crazy, infamous Memorial Day conference (78?). We had barely been back a day or two and there was an emergency meeting called where Lee put down the hatchet. I remember that meeting well...one young person, usually an older one chosen to be the representative, was chosen to stand up and "repent" to Witness Lee as he sat in the front with a smug look of satisfaction. Looking back, if that didn't seal the deal of making us a personality cult, then I don't know what did.

Your comments remind me of an experience both Don O and I went through in Detroit. This was in 1973. Don and I were sent to Berkeley by the elders because of their growth in young people to find out what they were doing. It was exciting being out there seeing what was going on. We came back and over the next several weeks we instituted changes. All I can say is that young people were attending our meetings like never before. It was a little bit crazy but energizing. The problem was that Don and I had some concern about the elders support despite sending us out to Berkeley. They seemed to be putting on the brakes. In any case, some of the sisters painted our metal chairs different colors as they were excited about what was going on. It was fun but kind of crazy. What happened next was that a couple sisters talked to the elders and said we were rebelling. In the next meeting Don and I walked in and it was very solemn and the song was "follow brothers"... Don was overwhelmed and cried like a baby in the meeting and I was like "what just happened"? They never asked us anything and just blasted us. In any case, it was probably the beginning of the end for me. Any further effort in trying to reach young people was over. The next step: in early 1974 everyone "migrated" to Ft. Lauderdale and that was another disaster. Ron K went to Anaheim.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

It was a wild time because of all the new people we had brought in. Even though WL later asked me to come to Detroit I wish I had stayed in Santa Cruz.

It was a common practice of WL and also TC to uproot the fruitful brothers, and then relocate them elsewhere. The result was a breach in fellowship between the shepherds and their sheep, with the subsequent "reattachment" of the saints to new leaders connected to headquarters.

I watched this occur repeatedly in the LC's. It was just another proof that both WL and TC were more interested in building their empires, than building God's house and family.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was a common practice of WL and also TC to uproot the fruitful brothers, and then relocate them elsewhere. The result was a breach in fellowship between the shepherds and their sheep, with the subsequent "reattachment" of the saints to new leaders connected to headquarters.

Whenever I visit the locality of my youth, I find it refreshing the same responsible brothers are there. On the surface, I have respect they haven't been relocated and since there is a history, I regard these brothers far more favorably than the blendeds.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

Whenever I visit the locality of my youth, I find it refreshing the same responsible brothers are there. On the surface, I have respect they haven't been relocated and since there is a history, I regard these brothers far more favorably than the blendeds.

Wish I could say the same thing. But the only elder I know in Dallas, while there back when I was, wasn't one then. The others have moved on, moved out (like Don R), or are part of the BBs. Oddly, Dallas seems to rock along in somewhat obscurity. That may be a ggod thing for them.

[aron]

John 10:22-39 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

There are some interesting thoughts embedded here, and I will note two of them. First, "I and the Father are one", which was completely misinterpreted by the opposing Jews, and probably by many readers subsequently as well. Jesus is one with the Father, just as the Roman Centurion in Luke 7 is one with Caesar. Jesus is completely subservient to the Father. Jesus' will is completely subsumed by the Father's will. "I come to do Thy will; behold in the roll of the book it is written concerning Me".

The rest of us have failed; yes we've seen the glory, but shortly thereafter we also attempted to impose our own will within that of the divine. We are still, in a word, disobedient. We may get fooled, in so doing, because we are partly obedient, but to God we are still impure. And the disease of the tree of Knowledge is that we can see, in part: we can see the problems, and the failure of others but we miss our own. Witness Lee probably believed strongly in his message, and in his work. He arguably got up earlier each morning, and worked harder, than many of us. But he was blind to the imposition of self, both personal, and cultural/societal into the will of God. He ignored the pernicious effects of merchanizing, of manipulating others, of lack of balance and accountability.

But when the Angel of the Lord spoke with Moses, JHWH Himself spoke. Why? Because the Angel was one with the Father JHWH of hosts. When the Angel spoke with Hagar she said, "You are the God who sees me", because through the obedient Angel God saw Hagar, and heard her cry there in the desert. These are indeed the "eyes of God, running to an fro throughout the earth". When Gabriel stood before Mary, and spoke, God spoke to Mary through the messenger. Gabriel did not distort the message: it came through purely. Gabriel's speaking was God's speaking. The Angel of the Lord could say, "I and the Father are one". So could Gabriel, there before Mary and Zechariah, in Luke's gospel account. We cannot. But we see Jesus, who came to earth, like us, and yet was one with the Father in Heaven. Jesus is the unique heavenly ladder, the unique Gate of Heaven, the unique abode of the Father God on earth. We fail, but in our failure we can acknowledge God's Christ. We see Him and are risen to our feet, to follow by faith.

God's eyes run to and fro throughout the earth, and not a sparrow falls but the Father doesn't know. But our eyes are clouded by our soul's will, by our volition, our intention, our purpose. My definition of intention here, is "a desired goal". In the divine kingdom, we are ruined by desire. James wrote, "You want but you do not have." Jesus wanted nothing, but the Father's house. Jesus said, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God", and He showed us, fully. The psalmist wrote, "One thing have I desired of JHWH, that will I seek after, that I may dwell in the house of JHWH all the days of my life"... Elsewhere the psalmist wrote "JHWH delights in those who fear Him/those who put their hope in His unfailing love." Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, the Savior, the Chosen Vessel, the King of Israel, was the One who fulfilled God's plan. And so God said, "This is the One in whom I delight." Jesus sought God's kingdom, God's will, God's delight, and so He WAS God's delight. The life of Jesus therefore shows us the way home to our Father God in heaven. "Our Father God, in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done here on earth, just as it is in heaven... etc".

People like Lee, and Jonathan Cahn (discussed on another thread) are not true charlatans, but rather have introduced their own will, or volition, into the process of following God. They are partly obedient, and they do want to declare the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, but they also want book sales and conference centers and the message gets distorted. So Lee got his name read in the halls of Congress, and Cahn got breakfast with the President of the U.S. They got honor and influence in this age; as Jesus said, "You have your reward." But there is another, the heavenly reward.

But Jesus is the Messenger (Angel) who is also the Message (Word of God). Jesus is the one.

The second thought from this part of John 10: "You are Gods". The Psalm that Jesus referenced continues, and says, "...but you will die like men". It's about disobedience: these angels, the sons of God, who disobeyed, were cast into Tartarus. They were once immortal as gods, but they ultimately died like men. They disobeyed, transgressed the divine boundaries (cf Gen 6, Jude v. 6, Rev. 12:4 &c) and became mortal. So the Psalm warns not to insinuate your will into God's command. I believe that is what Witness Lee referenced when he asked the Shanghai elders, "How did you feel when you removed Nee from your midst?" Their emotional investment in Nee's system (with Nee as uber-apostle) exposed their fallen human souls, and Lee used it against them.

I was once fully invested, body soul and spirit, into Nee & Lee's organization-building and ministry-uplifting scheme. And I felt it, too, when it got exposed, and died for me. But this has also happened since, because it's natural for us to impose our volition: we see something wrong (the proverbial splinter) and then get angry, or frightened, and are provoked into reaction (the proverbial beam). But our fear makes us weak, and also corrupt: Moses could only strike down an Egyptian. God buried Pharoah and the whole Egyptian army under the sea.

"Wait on the LORD/Be of good courage/Wait, I say, on the LORD."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

John 10:22-39 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

There are some interesting thoughts embedded here, and I will note two of them. First, "I and the Father are one", which was completely misinterpreted by the opposing Jews, and probably by many readers subsequently as well. Jesus is one with the Father, just as the Roman Centurion in Luke 7 is one with Caesar. Jesus is completely subservient to the Father. Jesus' will is completely subsumed by the Father's will. "I come to do Thy will; behold in the roll of the book it is written concerning Me".

The rest of us have failed; yes we've seen the glory, but shortly thereafter we also attempted to impose our own will within that of the divine. We are still, in a word, disobedient. We may get fooled, in so doing, because we are partly obedient, but to God we are still impure. And the disease of the tree of Knowledge is that we can see, in part: we can see the problems, and the failure of others but we miss our own. Witness Lee probably believed strongly in his message, and in his work. He arguably got up earlier each morning, and worked harder, than many of us. But he was blind to the imposition of self, both personal, and cultural/societal into the will of God. He ignored the pernicious effects of merchanizing, of manipulating others, of lack of balance and accountability.

But when the Angel of the Lord spoke with Moses, JHWH Himself spoke. Why? Because the Angel was one with the Father JHWH of hosts. When the Angel spoke with Hagar she said, "You are the God who sees me", because through the obedient Angel God saw Hagar, and heard her cry there in the desert. These are indeed the "eyes of God, running to an fro throughout the earth". When Gabriel stood before Mary, and spoke, God spoke to Mary through the messenger. Gabriel did not distort the message: it came through purely. Gabriel's speaking was God's speaking. The Angel of the Lord could say, "I and the Father are one". So could Gabriel, there before Mary and Zechariah, in Luke's gospel account. We cannot. But we see Jesus, who came to earth, like us, and yet was one with the Father in Heaven. Jesus is the unique heavenly ladder, the unique Gate of Heaven, the unique abode of the Father God on earth. We fail, but in our failure we can acknowledge God's Christ. We see Him and are risen to our feet, to follow by faith.

God's eyes run to and fro throughout the earth, and not a sparrow falls but the Father doesn't know. But our eyes are clouded by our soul's will, by our volition, our intention, our purpose. My definition of intention here, is "a desired goal". In the divine kingdom, we are ruined by desire. James wrote, "You want but you do not have." Jesus wanted nothing, but the Father's house. Jesus said, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God", and He showed us, fully. The psalmist wrote, "One thing have I desired of JHWH, that will I seek after, that I may dwell in the house of JHWH all the days of my life"... Elsewhere the psalmist wrote "JHWH delights in those who fear Him/those who put their hope in His unfailing love." Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, the Savior, the Chosen Vessel, the King of Israel, was the One who fulfilled God's plan. And so God said, "This is the One in whom I delight." Jesus sought God's kingdom, God's will, God's delight, and so He WAS God's delight. The life of Jesus therefore shows us the way home to our Father God in heaven. "Our Father God, in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done here on earth, just as it is in heaven... etc".

People like Lee, and Jonathan Cahn (discussed on another thread) are not true charlatans, but rather have introduced their own will, or volition, into the process of following God. They are partly obedient, and they do want to declare the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, but they also want book sales and conference centers and the message gets distorted. So Lee got his name read in the halls of Congress, and Cahn got breakfast with the President of the U.S. They got honor and influence in this age; as Jesus said, "You have your reward." But there is another, the heavenly reward.

But Jesus is the Messenger (Angel) who is also the Message (Word of God). Jesus is the one.

The second thought from this part of John 10: "You are Gods". The Psalm that Jesus referenced continues, and says, "...but you will die like men". It's about disobedience: these angels, the sons of God, who disobeyed, were cast into Tartarus. They were once immortal as gods, but they ultimately died like men. They disobeyed, transgressed the divine boundaries (cf Gen 6, Jude v. 6, Rev. 12:4 &c) and became mortal. So the Psalm warns not to insinuate your will into God's command. I believe that is what Witness Lee referenced when he asked the Shanghai elders, "How did you feel when you removed Nee from your midst?" Their emotional investment in Nee's system (with Nee as uber-apostle) exposed their fallen human souls, and Lee used it against them.

I was once fully invested, body soul and spirit, into Nee & Lee's organization-building and ministry-uplifting scheme. And I felt it, too, when it got exposed, and died for me. But this has also happened since, because it's natural for us to impose our volition: we see something wrong (the proverbial splinter) and then get angry, or frightened, and are provoked into reaction (the proverbial beam). But our fear makes us weak, and also corrupt: Moses could only strike down an Egyptian. God buried Pharoah and the whole Egyptian army under the sea.

"Wait on the LORD/Be of good courage/Wait, I say, on the LORD."

What is JHWH? Who is Father JHWH?

Is that like Father Dick, OFM?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

Even though WL later asked me to come to Detroit I wish I had stayed in Santa Cruz. It was the highlight of my LC experience.

As Ohio wrote, it was the policy to uproot people, so they couldn't be truly local; they couldn't get attached to the local assembly, area, city, or neighbors. Instead, people were to be for the ministry. WL would rather uproot a fruitful serving person into an unfruitful position, and suffer loss, rather than let them become too successful in one spot, and generate a a competing kingdom. Just look at what happened with both DYL & TC. No, for the sake of the ministry they needed to be rooted up and moved.

I once went back to my old local church after about 8 years away. All the young people (HS & College) were gone. They were all either "serving" the ministry somewhere else, or they had gone into the world. The "local" in the local church was revealed as a convenient fiction.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

As Ohio wrote, it was the policy to uproot people, so they couldn't be truly local; they couldn't get attached to the local assembly, area, city, or neighbors. Instead, people were to be for the ministry. WL would rather uproot a fruitful serving person into an unfruitful position, and suffer loss, rather than let them become too successful in one spot, and generate a a competing kingdom. Just look at what happened with both DYL & TC. No, for the sake of the ministry they needed to be rooted up and moved.

I once went back to my old local church after about 8 years away. All the young people (HS & College) were gone. They were all either "serving" the ministry somewhere else, or they had gone into the world. The "local" in the local church was revealed as a convenient fiction.

I think you are on to something. When I came back from Detroit (to Santa Cruz) after WL asked me to move there (Detroit) and I shared what happened to Karl he was a little miffed although he thought that maybe WL was giving a blessing on his efforts since WL was taking one of his key people to migrate to Detroit (Please note that WL had called Karl and asked him to send me to a conference in Detroit and Karl was obviously concerned before I left) Karl had mixed emotions but saw it as an overall positive and at least he spun it that way at the time. Of course, looking back WL probably saw an opportunity to undermine SC since WL never discussed me moving to Detroit with Karl either before or after.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by aron

As Ohio wrote, it was the policy to uproot people, so they couldn't be truly local; they couldn't get attached to the local assembly, area, city, or neighbors. Instead, people were to be for the ministry. WL would rather uproot a fruitful serving person into an unfruitful position, and suffer loss, rather than let them become too successful in one spot, and generate a a competing kingdom. Just look at what happened with both DYL & TC. No, for the sake of the ministry they needed to be rooted up and moved.

Is this what happened to Gene Gruhler?